Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:54 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:53 pm
Good point IMO - but Parkinson is such a negative / defensive minded manager.

What's the point of signing a creative player like Buckley if he doesn't play him - we need an attack minded coach in Parkinson's set up, otherwise we'll get this every game. We have better players now capable of playing more attack minded passing attacking football - Cullen, Buckley, Armstrong, Morais but the 1st thought is still to pass the ball sideways or backwards & then aimless hoof to Madine....this must be how they are told to play by Parkinson.

He's obviously created a great team spirit and the team play for each other and don't give in which is great, but he sets the team up so defensively at the start its like playing with one arm tied behind your back....we play much better when he takes the shackles off and lets the team attack....like most 2nd half's.
Would you prefer Owen Coyle back? He had attacking ideas above the teams ability to deliver them. From when we were top10 in the Prem, I've listened to you level the same criticism. Tell me who we need to change it as Manager on the budget we have (clearly it's possible as Leicester and Brighton showed)

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by TonyDomingos » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:22 pm

^^Funnily enough, today, I was sat more or less where I sat for Coyle's final game in charge.

A game of two halves. The first was pretty poor: the ball didn't spend much time on the ground and I don't think either side managed a shot on target. The second half was better, though by no means a classic. As has been noted elsewhere, we lack creativity, with a hoof to the Machine being the default option too many times. At one particular moment, I moaned to DSB that we weren't creating anything up the left wing; he astutely pointed out that we weren't doing anything up the right either.

That said, it wasn't awful. There were some decent individual performances: I thought Burke had a good game and we definitely looked livelier with Morais on the pitch. They had more shots on target than us, but mostly long range stuff that was straight at Howard.

So, a point a piece was about right. But, it was winnable and there may come a time in 2018 when we wish we had. Oh, and we didn't have a single corner all game, which probably says something about our lack of pressure up front.
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:55 pm

Brentford scored 3 and lost today. Funny old game. Lets not forget how many claimed they'd be happy if we avoid relegation this season. What with being broke and the recent injuries, Ameobi, Wheater and Vela being a kick in the teeth, a point away to Millwall isn't the end of the world. It's only our second game. Parky's aim is to keep us up in this league not play in the Champions' League.
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by TonyDomingos » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:01 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:55 pm
Parky's aim is to keep us up in this league not play in the Champions' League.
Parkinson is such a negative / defensive minded manager. :wink:
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:06 pm

TonyDomingos wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:01 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:55 pm
Parky's aim is to keep us up in this league not play in the Champions' League.
Parkinson is such a negative / defensive minded manager. :wink:
:lol:
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Prufrock » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:37 am

Just seen a clip of the goal from behind the nets... That is a sensational free kick. What a 2017 that boy is having! Turbo cult hero status.
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:26 am

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:37 am
Just seen a clip of the goal from behind the nets... That is a sensational free kick. What a 2017 that boy is having! Turbo cult hero status.
It was brilliant. I initially thought he'd do little in this league. I now think he's our only chance of staying up. Parky, for all his strengths, can't coach attacking football. Best chance is keep it tight and nick one, step forward Morais.
Oh, but surely just for one day, we could fight and we could win
And if only for a little while, we could insist on the impossible...

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by nelson66 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:56 am

[/quote]
Best chance is keep it tight and nick one
[/quote]

Wasn't that the way we set up in our first year back in the Prem with Big Sam in charge ?
In Parky we trust (but a lot less than last season) - I'm a believer (but possibly not for much longer)

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:31 am

The postman is fcking ace. First name on the teamsheet.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:06 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:26 am
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:37 am
Just seen a clip of the goal from behind the nets... That is a sensational free kick. What a 2017 that boy is having! Turbo cult hero status.
It was brilliant. I initially thought he'd do little in this league. I now think he's our only chance of staying up. Parky, for all his strengths, can't coach attacking football. Best chance is keep it tight and nick one, step forward Morais.

Can't coach attacking football? Nonsense. Can't spend the millions of pounds it takes to bring in quality strikers more like. Can't even compete with Burton on wages.

Keeping it tight is what all successful modern teams do. Wide open attacking football is a myth.

Mourinho will win the league this year imo. And he will do so with the best defensive record of all teams there. They won't play free flowing football. Despite their millions.

Parky knows what he's doing. The reason Lennon, Coyle, Mowbray etc all are failures as managers is they think the modern game has room for naivety. It doesn't. Grinding out results is the only way a club in our position will get anywhere. If we want to do better going forwards we need to be spending a hella lot more.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:30 pm

Realistically our best chance at three points is if they score Nil. Our inability to keep the opposition to Nil means you have to score at least 2 to get three points. That'd be 92 goals over the season. Don't fancy our chances at that.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:31 pm

This from Alan Houghton in the B.N raised a smile:

"Millwall are the EFL Family Club of the Year, 2017 and evidence of this was seen, as a group of local youngsters lined up to welcome our coaches with traditional gestures. Visiting coaches are parked next to the turnstile entrances at the New Den and the nearest recommended hostelries for pre-match refreshments are back in Bolton. So, we had to make do in the ground, with some excellent Angelo Poretti beer at a breath-taking £4.60 a pint and a distinctly average sausage roll from the ‘Pie Factory’ at £3.30 each, served by the usual friendly, cheery bar staff."
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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:57 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:06 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:26 am
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:37 am
Just seen a clip of the goal from behind the nets... That is a sensational free kick. What a 2017 that boy is having! Turbo cult hero status.
It was brilliant. I initially thought he'd do little in this league. I now think he's our only chance of staying up. Parky, for all his strengths, can't coach attacking football. Best chance is keep it tight and nick one, step forward Morais.

Can't coach attacking football? Nonsense. Can't spend the millions of pounds it takes to bring in quality strikers more like. Can't even compete with Burton on wages.

Keeping it tight is what all successful modern teams do. Wide open attacking football is a myth.

Mourinho will win the league this year imo. And he will do so with the best defensive record of all teams there. They won't play free flowing football. Despite their millions.

Parky knows what he's doing. The reason Lennon, Coyle, Mowbray etc all are failures as managers is they think the modern game has room for naivety. It doesn't. Grinding out results is the only way a club in our position will get anywhere. If we want to do better going forwards we need to be spending a hella lot more.
Who's mentioned wide open attacking football ?, I haven't seen anyone mention this - and it's not about the quality of the strikers by the way, its what we do with & without the ball. Parkinson sets his team out to defend first / attack second regardless of who we are playing (league 1 or Championship), it's his coaching mentality. He's happy to play directly to Madine with his back to goal most of the time, instead of getting players forward quicker to give the players options to pass to and to create opportunities - when we attack (unless we are losing) its rare that more than 3 or 4 players get over the half way line to support the forwards - the gap between the front two and everyone else is huge....this has to be Parkinson's tactics and it may well keep us up this season.

However, when we go behind (as we have in all 3 games this season) and we have to score his mentality changes and he starts to attack more, brings on more attack minded players and the team then does gets forward more, we then create chances and score goals - as we have in all of the 3 games so far this season.

No one is saying play all out attacking football, but there has to be a balance - perhaps Madine & ALF would love the players to start playing into their feet or whip balls in from the by line for them to run onto instead of balls launched 60 yards over their heads.

No one is having a go at Parkinson as a manager - its just that he appears to think & coach defensively, there doesn't appear to be as much thought or coaching going on in regards to the attacking side of the game - BTW we currently aren't good enough to keep it tight - as we've gone behind in all 3 games this season trying to keep it tight in the 1st half of games and being too defensive can also invite the better teams on to attack us in numbers as they don't need to think much about defending against us.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:07 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:57 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:06 pm
LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:26 am
Prufrock wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:37 am
Just seen a clip of the goal from behind the nets... That is a sensational free kick. What a 2017 that boy is having! Turbo cult hero status.
It was brilliant. I initially thought he'd do little in this league. I now think he's our only chance of staying up. Parky, for all his strengths, can't coach attacking football. Best chance is keep it tight and nick one, step forward Morais.

Can't coach attacking football? Nonsense. Can't spend the millions of pounds it takes to bring in quality strikers more like. Can't even compete with Burton on wages.

Keeping it tight is what all successful modern teams do. Wide open attacking football is a myth.

Mourinho will win the league this year imo. And he will do so with the best defensive record of all teams there. They won't play free flowing football. Despite their millions.

Parky knows what he's doing. The reason Lennon, Coyle, Mowbray etc all are failures as managers is they think the modern game has room for naivety. It doesn't. Grinding out results is the only way a club in our position will get anywhere. If we want to do better going forwards we need to be spending a hella lot more.
Who's mentioned wide open attacking football ?, I haven't seen anyone mention this - and it's not about the quality of the strikers by the way, its what we do with & without the ball. Parkinson sets his team out to defend first / attack second regardless of who we are playing (league 1 or Championship), it's his coaching mentality. He's happy to play directly to Madine with his back to goal most of the time, instead of getting players forward quicker to give the players options to pass to and to create opportunities - when we attack (unless we are losing) its rare that more than 3 or 4 players get over the half way line to support the forwards - the gap between the front two and everyone else is huge....this has to be Parkinson's tactics and it may well keep us up this season.

However, when we go behind (as we have in all 3 games this season) and we have to score his mentality changes and he starts to attack more, brings on more attack minded players and the team then does gets forward more, we then create chances and score goals - as we have in all of the 3 games so far this season.

No one is saying play all out attacking football, but there has to be a balance - perhaps Madine & ALF would love the players to start playing into their feet or whip balls in from the by line for them to run onto instead of balls launched 60 yards over their heads.

No one is having a go at Parkinson as a manager - its just that he appears to think & coach defensively, there doesn't appear to be as much thought or coaching going on in regards to the attacking side of the game - BTW we currently aren't good enough to keep it tight - as we've gone behind in all 3 games this season trying to keep it tight in the 1st half of games and being too defensive can also invite the better teams on to attack us in numbers as they don't need to think much about defending against us.
What you've just described is what 99% of managers do. People aren't leaving gaps in behind by committing half a dozen forward. It's simply not what teams do. We are struggling now, because we are missing key players. We have a small squad, and cannot pay even a competitive league one wage. Hence we are always going to be in trouble if 3 key players are missing as they are.

What makes the difference is quality in attacking areas. Quality that unlocks games and means you don't have to commit half your team forward to score a goal.

We can't afford that quality. So play how we must.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Peter Thompson » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:26 pm

BWFCI - I disagree, you say 'what makes the difference is quality in attacking areas'....we could have Messi & Suarez, but even they wouldn't score if they had 60 yard balls launched at their heads all the time and no one within 30 yards to pass the ball to when they occasionally get the ball to feet - they can't be expected to beat 4 & 5 players all the time and then score, all teams need players from midfield to get forward quickly when we have the ball - either centrally or wide (or both) to support the front men.

We just don't look that interested in attacking / creating chances in the 1st half of games, unless we are losing / chasing games....and I think that's what Parkinson coaches. I watch a lot of football and most teams regardless of quality or league positions appear to attack in more numbers than us & create more chances than we do....all strikers need good service into them.

Look at the 1st goal against Crewe (I know it was only Crewe), but that move down the left and then in the box was excellent - and that was down to the numbers and pace going / getting forward which gives players passing options. The players are capable of playing more attacking, but its almost like Parkinson tells them not to go over the half way line unless we are losing.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:41 pm

I'm treating this season like a first season in the premiership. We've got the smallest budget in the division and surrounded by millionaire clubs with bloated squads.

I was bloody delighted with yesterday's point and anything we get on the road is a bonus imo. We're not creating much and in all 3 games I've felt the keepers have both looked shaky and we've resorted to long ball too often. However, there's a great spirit amongst the squad, Burke and Cullen both look like good signings and I think as a side we will get better.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:50 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:26 pm
BWFCI - I disagree, you say 'what makes the difference is quality in attacking areas'....we could have Messi & Suarez, but even they wouldn't score if they had 60 yard balls launched at their heads all the time and no one within 30 yards to pass the ball to when they occasionally get the ball to feet - they can't be expected to beat 4 & 5 players all the time and then score, all teams need players from midfield to get forward quickly when we have the ball - either centrally or wide (or both) to support the front men.

We just don't look that interested in attacking / creating chances in the 1st half of games, unless we are losing / chasing games....and I think that's what Parkinson coaches. I watch a lot of football and most teams regardless of quality or league positions appear to attack in more numbers than us & create more chances than we do....all strikers need good service into them.

Look at the 1st goal against Crewe (I know it was only Crewe), but that move down the left and then in the box was excellent - and that was down to the numbers and pace going / getting forward which gives players passing options. The players are capable of playing more attacking, but its almost like Parkinson tells them not to go over the half way line unless we are losing.
Just watched 5 minutes of Newcastle Spurs. Newcastle banging long balls up to Gayle on his own.

I think we do what majority of teams do, especially those without resources.

Allardyce created the blueprint for this. Many Allardyce games were about keeping it tight for as long as possible. It is the way to cope when you are lacking relative quality. Even when you aren't sometimes.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:18 pm

Nice to come back for a point, but if we'd gone ahead and drawn would people be as happy with a point at Millwall? For all the noise about their Fearsome Place To Visit, Millwall were only the sixth-best home team in the third tier last season, scoring eight fewer at home than Bristol Rovers and two fewer than Bury. For all the talk of Allardyce, he loved to divide the season into segments from which to target points hauls: although he'd have blustered in public about being happy with a draw there, I doubt he'd have privately aimed for anything but a win.

I'm aware that we're financially straitened, but we won't have much better three-point chances than this fixture. Millwall are still a gormless knock-it-long Third Division team who can't quite believe they got promoted. Trouble is, you might say the same about us.

There were positives. Having played on the left of the back three against Leeds, Burke was placed in the centre of Beevers and Dervite and looked enormously comfortable. His speed of thought and leg cancelled out many a Millwall attack. Particularly in the first half, he also allowed us to play a very high line against a half-crocked Gregory and the monolithic Morison – whom he also pleasingly shoulder-barged off the ball right in front of the away end, possibly leaving the grey-hair wondering about taking up bowls.

Burke also looked comfortable on the ball, and it'd be interesting to see how much more he'd have swashbuckled forward in possession if an early run hadn't ended in losing control and gaining a yellow card – curiously, at about the same time our old mate Gaz Cahill was seeing red across London for a similar escapade.

This comfort on the ball has only strengthened my opinion that Burke should be moved over one more place, to the right of the back three. Dorian Dervite is not a poor player, but he looks it compared to Burke, and may be on borrowed time in this team. On Saturday he had a miserable 43% pass completion rate (stats per Squawka): more than half the times he got the ball, he gave it away, generally with a flat waft forward. Between the 1st and 81st minutes he successfully completed just one long ball, and even that was a crossfield switch to the left flank rather than a through-ball.

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Burke, by contrast, had a 74% completion rate, and although many of these were sideways I'm intrigued to see how he'd have fared if he'd been joining in with attacks rather than watching from the back. usually our only attempts at forward balls were Dervite and Beevers (Derveevers?) lofting attempted diagonals in the general direction of Gary Madine. (Beevers had 63% pass completion, but most of his successes were sideways: only one of his 11 long balls forward found a man.)

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Now, obviously, this isn't all on the defenders. In fact, if your most frequent creator is a centre-back, you're either doing it wrong or you've somehow managed to rejuvenate Franz Beckenbauer. But at Millwall our midfield was a mush. Cullen seemed to be nominally at the back of the three, and for a small fella he showed great determination and little fear, including several headed duels with bigger players in which he may not have won but he didn't allow the oppo easy passage. (Squawka says he won 3 out of 11, but he certainly left his mark on Millwall's meatheads.)

Like his Hammers loanmate he's tidy in possession too, but here's the problem. Several times, upon emerging from a scrap in a defensive position, he looked up and saw nobody ahead of him except a distant Madine and Le Fondre, looking like the Statue of Liberty and the Staten Island Ferry. If he was the nominal defensive midfielder he could expect to see two wingbacks and his two fellow midfielders, but all too often they were behind him, having (admirably) got back to help out, and more than once Cullen was forced to scoot in a little half-circle and pass sideways or backwards to a team-mate. Nowhere to be seen were the little 10-yard forward diagonals by which a team can progress up the pitch. Our transition from defence to "attack" was awful.
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It got better once Morais came on for Little – although let that not be taken as a criticism of the new boy, who tried to get forward but frequently found himself forced to communicate by megaphone with his nearest colleague. Morais added belief and directness, and for a while in that second half Millwall didn't seem like quite the fearsome hosts cliché would assume.

The trouble wasn't terror but timidity. Although uniformly tigerish in the tackle, too many of our players didn't look comfortable in possession, which inevitably leads to a lack of penetration and the ever-present tactical wheeze of placing your creativity in the delicate hands of a 6ft 4in centre-back or two. I don't believe we're that bad a team. Keep the commendable workrate and team ethic, but we need to work hard with the ball, too, getting forward to give meaningful options other than Hitting It Long To Gaz. That might mean picking either Dervite or Beevers in the middle of Burke and Derik. It might mean bringing in Buckley for Karacan or possibly the captain, who was treading water for much of the second half and didn't exactly immolate this division back when we were spending money like a Premier League team. And it might mean considering a return to 4-2-3-1 even before Ameobi gets back to add some craft to the graft.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:42 pm

Or put Armstrong up front instead of ALF to add some pace, and the ability to run the channels.

We lack outlets. We did last season. Ameobi and Madine were our only ones.

For me we are setup correctly (I don't like 3 at the back but I see little other realistic option with what we've got available personally). The problem is we don't currently have anyone who you can give the ball to, up front or elsewhere who can make things happen on their own. Put a circa 2000 Michael Rickets into this side and we'd be more than alright. As it stands we have to create things more intricately and simply aren't really up to it.

I'd like to see Armstrong get a run and see if his pace helps.

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Re: Now Den: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 12/08/17

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:51 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:42 pm
Or put Armstrong up front instead of ALF to add some pace, and the ability to run the channels.

We lack outlets. We did last season. Ameobi and Madine were our only ones.

For me we are setup correctly (I don't like 3 at the back but I see little other realistic option with what we've got available personally). The problem is we don't currently have anyone who you can give the ball to, up front or elsewhere who can make things happen on their own. Put a circa 2000 Michael Rickets into this side and we'd be more than alright. As it stands we have to create things more intricately and simply aren't really up to it.

I'd like to see Armstrong get a run and see if his pace helps.
I feel for ALF - he's been asked to a small percentage of a small percentage: (1) accurate long balls to Madine which (2) Madine manages to flick on or knock down. But he shouldn't be guaranteed a place, and he may be on a five-game probation before Parky considers other options. Arma is rapid and could offer an option over the top – which would in turn force the defence back and thus give us more space to play in, if we decide to bother.

There were times on Saturday when you could have thrown a quilt over Gaz and ALF and their nearest colleague was 50 yards away. We can't construct an attack like that, and we didn't.

I understand what you mean about giving the ball to someone who can make things happen; certainly there was more optimism when Morais ran at Meredith than at any other time. But if we haven't got such matchwinners – and we haven't got many, if any - we could also pass and move. The ball moves quicker than any player, and it doesn't always have to be hoisted to do so.

Quick word for Arma, by the way - he got more minutes but no decent service, only yet more hopeless wafted balls (not even penetrative long balls, just the sort of floated efforts you do in the park for Headers & Volleys). But like Cullen he was fearless and got stuck in. Play to his strengths and we could have a good 'un.

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