Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

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Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:49 am

Well, this got more interesting than we hoped...

Parkinson is now putting very public pressure on Madine:
It’s a very difficult one because Gary is going to have to play with pain. I’ve had shoulder injuries, dislocated it, had some really bad ones and they are not right for months. I said to him yesterday if you are going to wait until it’s perfect you won’t be playing this season. At some point it’ll have to be strapped up, get an injection in it and get back out there.

He has been running again and will keep progressing. He doesn’t want to play and then have to come off again after 15 minutes but if he wants to play a part in the run-in, it needs to get to a level where he can manage it.

He has to do everything he can morning, noon and night to give himself a chance of playing. That’s all we want from him. If he gets out there, great, if not, we’ll have to win without him.

The frustrating thing is in the past few games we’ve had so many chances this shouldn’t be an issue we’re discussing – but we are because we haven’t scored enough goals. Bury set themselves up to not get beat – and they did a good job in that respect but we had the best moments in the game. We had enough set plays, enough shooting opportunities, probably not enough of them hit the target. And that has been the case just recently.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:52 am

Howard
Dervite
Wheater
Beevers
Taylor
Spearing
Derik
Vela
Morais
Henry
Le Fondre

Back to 4-5-1. If Madine is up to it have him on the bench. Rather he came on at the end for 15 minutes than started and went off after 15.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Peter Thompson » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:10 am

Karacan has to start ahead of Derik

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:13 am

Peter Thompson wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:10 am
Karacan has to start ahead of Derik
Possibly though the little bits I've seen of Karacan have hardly inspired me! Derik adds height, which is about all he does, but we do need height in our side. Our most likely route to a goal is a set piece!

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Peter Thompson » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:20 am

Karacan hasn't been given a chance & how many goals has Derik scored from set pieces ?

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:24 am

Genuine question: Does Derik even go forward for set-pieces?

I'd be intrigued to see Karacan in the team, not least as I think the time has passed for playing Derik+Spearing if we're evidently struggling to create. Karacan's energy would go some way towards replacing Pratley's main plus-point - Running Around A Bit - because I agree that, flaky as he has often been, Henry has to be included for his potential attacking guile.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by throwawayboltonian » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:33 am

Another bore 0-0 draw, or narrow loss I reckon. Just can't see us getting any goals, or enough shots on target for one to bobble in.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Billbob » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:34 am

I would go with same team as insane and give karacan a go and bring long on after a hour and Derek on later. I think the quad of Henry morais and vela and Taylor together really worked things on the ground well, and got le fondre more into the game. I can't remembered which home games was when Viv Solomon got brought in late into a game but he calmed things down a bit but got stuck in. I also echo bringing madine in for the last 20.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by General Mannerheim » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:06 am

feck madine we dont need him, we really just need to stop playing with seven defenders! shit or bust now innit, change it, nothing to lose.

.................ALF
............Henry
.......Karacan....Vela....Jay
Taylor..........................Morais
...........standard back 3

ooh christmas tree...

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:24 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:49 am
The frustrating thing is in the past few games we’ve had so many chances this shouldn’t be an issue we’re discussing – but we are because we haven’t scored enough goals. Bury set themselves up to not get beat – and they did a good job in that respect but we had the best moments in the game. We had enough set plays, enough shooting opportunities, probably not enough of them hit the target. And that has been the case just recently.
Sorta yes and sorta no. I see BWFCi's statistics about our goal getting and scoring ability without Madine on the pitch, but that sorta belies the 10 points we've got when he's not been there (games where he went off at 0-0 or 1-1 generally) and we popped up and grabbed a winner - or in the case of Shrewesbury 2 winners. Not a huge haul, but then he hasn't missed that many games.

If we have a look at the goals we scored in the last month or so.

Fleetwood

Madine to Alf, halfway line - Alf takes down right on overlap and smacks in from Right touchline. Really a solo effort, but acknowledging that he did get the ball from Madine.

Morais free-kick direct to Wheater. Madine occupies two defenders in the centre, there's still one on Wheater, but he just manages to get there ahead of him

Morais free-kick direct to Beevers - Their defenders just switch off in the middle

Morais throw - Madine comes for ball, back out to Morais. Cross right on Alf's noggin, unchallenged and in.

Gillingham

Morais corner straight to Wheater - Madine not really consequential there's about 3 defenders marking Beevers.

Derik to Madine who passes out to Morais - at this stage we haven't really progressed forward much. Morais gets good cross in to Alf. If you were being really generous, you could argue Madine pulls their 5 out of position, but that would probably be stretching it.

Morais corner straight to Beevers - Madine not really involved - good header from Beevers pretty shit defending all round.

Good hold up by Madine, 40 yards out passes through Alf to Morais still 40 yards out, Morais gets decent cross in to poorly defended Vela who nips in first.

Northampton

Not really that involved in penalty he's keeping a defender occupied, but so are others..

Lucky ball Spearing to Vela who does the hard work out to Taylor, Madine pulls the two CD's front post, Morais badly marked by what's left has a free hit.

Oxford

Madine header for the first - should have scored - bounces out for Morais to follow up. In fairness no one else was going to hit the bar from there. In fairness it shouldn't have hit the bar from there

Free-kick Morais - no one picks Beevers up for the rebound.

One to argue a little about throw in Morais straight to their CD - great header in the corner under minimal pressure from Madine - but he is there loitering

nice hold up for Vela (although still plenty to do from 40 yards out) - good finish

Shrewsbury

Madine not on pitch when we scored either

Southend

Madine not on the pitch when we scored.


So yes - he's been involved - but I think there's plenty there that we should have scored whether he was on the pitch or not.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:17 pm

Stixk your mortgage on 1-0 vale

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:19 pm

Cheers, Worthy - interesting analysis. I guess what might be said for him (by fans and players, like Beevers last night) is that he's an out-ball who relieves pressure and gets us up the park - not always involved directly in goals but a conduit from our half to theirs.

Meanwhile, there's still tickets left for the Vale game. We got the full allocation of 4,485; as of this morning, we'd sold "over 4,100". Get there and get behind 'em: if we win and Fleetwood don't, we go up. #Wrexham88

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:23 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:19 pm
Cheers, Worthy - interesting analysis. I guess what might be said for him (by fans and players, like Beevers last night) is that he's an out-ball who relieves pressure and gets us up the park - not always involved directly in goals but a conduit from our half to theirs.

Meanwhile, there's still tickets left for the Vale game. We got the full allocation of 4,485; as of this morning, we'd sold "over 4,100". Get there and get behind 'em: if we win and Fleetwood don't, we go up. #Wrexham88
Big followings haven't exactly helped us.

See big attendances in recent history - Blackpool at home last day of season, Oldham away Chesterfield at home, Bury at home.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:03 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:23 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:19 pm
Cheers, Worthy - interesting analysis. I guess what might be said for him (by fans and players, like Beevers last night) is that he's an out-ball who relieves pressure and gets us up the park - not always involved directly in goals but a conduit from our half to theirs.

Meanwhile, there's still tickets left for the Vale game. We got the full allocation of 4,485; as of this morning, we'd sold "over 4,100". Get there and get behind 'em: if we win and Fleetwood don't, we go up. #Wrexham88
Big followings haven't exactly helped us.

See big attendances in recent history - Blackpool at home last day of season, Oldham away Chesterfield at home, Bury at home.
Fcuk recent history. Get there if you can and roar the lads on.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:19 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:19 pm
Cheers, Worthy - interesting analysis. I guess what might be said for him (by fans and players, like Beevers last night) is that he's an out-ball who relieves pressure and gets us up the park - not always involved directly in goals but a conduit from our half to theirs.

Meanwhile, there's still tickets left for the Vale game. We got the full allocation of 4,485; as of this morning, we'd sold "over 4,100". Get there and get behind 'em: if we win and Fleetwood don't, we go up. #Wrexham88
Quite - He certainly does some of that - but the broader point I was making was there's a fair amount of goals we scored where Madine was peripheral (or not on the pitch) - so this notion that we "can't score" without Madine on the pitch is actually in people's heads...

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:27 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:19 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:19 pm
Cheers, Worthy - interesting analysis. I guess what might be said for him (by fans and players, like Beevers last night) is that he's an out-ball who relieves pressure and gets us up the park - not always involved directly in goals but a conduit from our half to theirs.

Meanwhile, there's still tickets left for the Vale game. We got the full allocation of 4,485; as of this morning, we'd sold "over 4,100". Get there and get behind 'em: if we win and Fleetwood don't, we go up. #Wrexham88
Quite - He certainly does some of that - but the broader point I was making was there's a fair amount of goals we scored where Madine was peripheral (or not on the pitch) - so this notion that we "can't score" without Madine on the pitch is actually in people's heads...
It might be in people's heads but it also looks a reality.

I think the thing is that Madine is our only outlet. So we play better with him there. The lack of an outlet from minute 1 seems to put a lot of pressure on the centre backs, none of whom are comfortable on the ball, and a midfield that equally doesn't look confident coming to receive the ball deep and moving it.

Suspect that manifests itself in a few wayward balls short and long, groans from the crowd, pressure, especially in this situation.

When they have Madine up there, they feel more confident that there is a simple ball on. And hence it puts less pressure on our weaker areas of the team in possession.

Iles said in his video this lunchtime that he feels the nerves are manifesting themselves in players not wanting to take risks, especially Spearing and the back three. So often the safe ball is to lump it away. I do think we've lost some composure and no target to hit up front just compounds that.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:11 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:27 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:19 pm
(...) there's a fair amount of goals we scored where Madine was peripheral (or not on the pitch) - so this notion that we "can't score" without Madine on the pitch is actually in people's heads...
It might be in people's heads but it also looks a reality.

I think the thing is that Madine is our only outlet. So we play better with him there. The lack of an outlet from minute 1 seems to put a lot of pressure on the centre backs, none of whom are comfortable on the ball, and a midfield that equally doesn't look confident coming to receive the ball deep and moving it.

Suspect that manifests itself in a few wayward balls short and long, groans from the crowd, pressure, especially in this situation.

When they have Madine up there, they feel more confident that there is a simple ball on. And hence it puts less pressure on our weaker areas of the team in possession.

Iles said in his video this lunchtime that he feels the nerves are manifesting themselves in players not wanting to take risks, especially Spearing and the back three. So often the safe ball is to lump it away. I do think we've lost some composure and no target to hit up front just compounds that.
Not disagreeing with you, but the bolded bit is what frustrates me – as a fan, a player and a coach. Unless they're a very one-dimensional destroyer, it's a key part of a midfielder's job to want the ball; either seek to create with it, passing forward or sideways to a mate in a better position, or at the very least show for the ball and pop it back in order to tempt the oppo out and thereby create space.

There is no clearer sign of the abdication of responsibility by your creatives than the sight of your distribution strategy being decided, dictated and demonstrated by your centre-backs. They're there for a reason - strength, solidity, good reading of the game, but primarily destructive rather than creative, unless they're Beckenbauer. And to be clear, I speak as one who increasingly plays there myself – admittedly with an eye for the cheeky accurate forward pass, but if I have to keep going long because the midfielders aren't showing, they'll be getting a bollocking.

Out of interest, it's not just this Bolton who suffer from this; I've seen it from various England teams and sometimes even the much-heralded Fergie teams – you knew things were going well when the ball consistently went from being at Rio's feet to being in the stands. But what makes it particularly annoying in our case is that the midfield contains our biggest earners – who were signed with Premier League reputations and wages to match. I could understand Oscar Threlkeld and Tom Walker buckling under the pressure, but not Spearing and Pratley.

Which is not to single out players for derision, but it's important we get our leaders to lead. They've both worn the armband, they both need to want the ball, they should be dragging us over the line. And I appreciate that Darren is neither a dribbler nor a ball-threader, but I think tone can be set.

Which is where the management come in. There's no doubt that the wheels have fallen off since Madine's injury; the Magic Hat's injury-time winner at Southend is our only goal in April's five games. This is the time when the manager and his staff have to embolden their players to get forward and seek success, not meekly sit back and hope something happens. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing one up top against three centre-backs, in fact some would say it's a clever move to give you two overloads elsewhere, but those overloads depend on people getting forward. Parkinson is an inherently conservative manager but he needs the players to gamble, to seek destiny in number. We don't need Spearing+Derik plus three centre-backs; even more importantly, we need to commit to getting men forward.

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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by Lord Kangana » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:27 pm

I'd settle for the nervy full house one-nils at the end of the last season we had in this division.

Or for Brownies 178th (or somesuch) minute winner at Dean Court.

Still in our hands. Even after all this shit, still. F*ck it, we can do this.
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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by boltonboris » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:48 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:13 am
Peter Thompson wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:10 am
Karacan has to start ahead of Derik
Possibly though the little bits I've seen of Karacan have hardly inspired me! Derik adds height, which is about all he does, but we do need height in our side. Our most likely route to a goal is a set piece!
Trotter adds height. He's a carthorse too. In fact, last night I thought Trotter had grown a 'fro, until somebody told me it was Derik. Miles off the bounce, miles off the oppo's shit touches and miles off the pace
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Re: Vale of tears or happy valley? Port Vale (A) Sat 22 Apr 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:58 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:11 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:27 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:19 pm
(...) there's a fair amount of goals we scored where Madine was peripheral (or not on the pitch) - so this notion that we "can't score" without Madine on the pitch is actually in people's heads...
It might be in people's heads but it also looks a reality.

I think the thing is that Madine is our only outlet. So we play better with him there. The lack of an outlet from minute 1 seems to put a lot of pressure on the centre backs, none of whom are comfortable on the ball, and a midfield that equally doesn't look confident coming to receive the ball deep and moving it.

Suspect that manifests itself in a few wayward balls short and long, groans from the crowd, pressure, especially in this situation.

When they have Madine up there, they feel more confident that there is a simple ball on. And hence it puts less pressure on our weaker areas of the team in possession.

Iles said in his video this lunchtime that he feels the nerves are manifesting themselves in players not wanting to take risks, especially Spearing and the back three. So often the safe ball is to lump it away. I do think we've lost some composure and no target to hit up front just compounds that.
Not disagreeing with you, but the bolded bit is what frustrates me – as a fan, a player and a coach. Unless they're a very one-dimensional destroyer, it's a key part of a midfielder's job to want the ball; either seek to create with it, passing forward or sideways to a mate in a better position, or at the very least show for the ball and pop it back in order to tempt the oppo out and thereby create space.

There is no clearer sign of the abdication of responsibility by your creatives than the sight of your distribution strategy being decided, dictated and demonstrated by your centre-backs. They're there for a reason - strength, solidity, good reading of the game, but primarily destructive rather than creative, unless they're Beckenbauer. And to be clear, I speak as one who increasingly plays there myself – admittedly with an eye for the cheeky accurate forward pass, but if I have to keep going long because the midfielders aren't showing, they'll be getting a bollocking.

Out of interest, it's not just this Bolton who suffer from this; I've seen it from various England teams and sometimes even the much-heralded Fergie teams – you knew things were going well when the ball consistently went from being at Rio's feet to being in the stands. But what makes it particularly annoying in our case is that the midfield contains our biggest earners – who were signed with Premier League reputations and wages to match. I could understand Oscar Threlkeld and Tom Walker buckling under the pressure, but not Spearing and Pratley.

Which is not to single out players for derision, but it's important we get our leaders to lead. They've both worn the armband, they both need to want the ball, they should be dragging us over the line. And I appreciate that Darren is neither a dribbler nor a ball-threader, but I think tone can be set.

Which is where the management come in. There's no doubt that the wheels have fallen off since Madine's injury; the Magic Hat's injury-time winner at Southend is our only goal in April's five games. This is the time when the manager and his staff have to embolden their players to get forward and seek success, not meekly sit back and hope something happens. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing one up top against three centre-backs, in fact some would say it's a clever move to give you two overloads elsewhere, but those overloads depend on people getting forward. Parkinson is an inherently conservative manager but he needs the players to gamble, to seek destiny in number. We don't need Spearing+Derik plus three centre-backs; even more importantly, we need to commit to getting men forward.
Agree with a lot of that. The England analogy especially. Someone last night said it was like watching the England-Iceland game. It was. Like England you can keep saying "these players are better than this" and they are. But come to the crunch time and time again the same thing happens. Which makes you wonder if they really are? Like England I think its a balance thing. The right player improves the team hugely, as we saw with Ameobi. As it stands everyone is looking to give the ball to someone else. There isn't anyone who can provide a spark of inspiration. That is what we badly miss.

Also agree about midfield taking responsibility. Not just for picking the ball off the defenders but also getting forwards. Too often they all sat deep, and you could see Parky throwing his arms about getting frustrated. Pratley and Vela should have been released to get up alongside ALF. But Pratley rarely strayed out of his left sided midfield (odd) role.

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