The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
11
41%
Conservatives
10
37%
Liberal Democrats
2
7%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
2
7%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
4%
Planet Hobo
1
4%
 
Total votes: 27

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:10 pm

See Uber-Tory Laura Kuenssberg (nothing makes me feel more out of touch than watching supposedly sane adults lose their feck shit over her) has just tweeted that the DWP are charging 9ppm or 55ppm from mobiles (natch) to call the Universal Credit helpline.

I try to avoid the "Tories are morally bad and wilfully screw over the poor" line, but UC and its implementation make it fecking difficult. Cold blooded political calculation at its worst. I could at least see how the bedroom tax was a policy feck up no-one had thought through properly but Christ.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:53 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:10 pm
See Uber-Tory Laura Kuenssberg (nothing makes me feel more out of touch than watching supposedly sane adults lose their fecking shit over her) has just tweeted that the DWP are charging 9ppm or 55ppm from mobiles (natch) to call the Universal Credit helpline.

I try to avoid the "Tories are morally bad and wilfully screw over the poor" line, but UC and its implementation make it fecking difficult. Cold blooded political calculation at its worst. I could at least see how the bedroom tax was a policy feck up no-one had thought through properly but Christ.
That if true is bang out of order

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:09 am

Hoboh wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:53 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:10 pm
See Uber-Tory Laura Kuenssberg (nothing makes me feel more out of touch than watching supposedly sane adults lose their fecking shit over her) has just tweeted that the DWP are charging 9ppm or 55ppm from mobiles (natch) to call the Universal Credit helpline.

I try to avoid the "Tories are morally bad and wilfully screw over the poor" line, but UC and its implementation make it fecking difficult. Cold blooded political calculation at its worst. I could at least see how the bedroom tax was a policy feck up no-one had thought through properly but Christ.
That if true is bang out of order
It is and they don't see why it is a problem.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:20 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:40 pm
. You will note that I don't conflate all right of centre policy with fascism.
...well, *cough*, actually, you, Prufrock, and others do exactly that more often than you would seem to want to acknowledge with the occasional racism label thrown in (usually in the form of a oh so knowing, sarcastic 'brown people' comment).
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:38 pm

This is prominent Brexit campaigner Peter North a month or two before the Referendum....
At worst we have two years of unsettled markets where there will be winners and losers. But the fundamentals do not change. Britain is still a first world dynamic economy with countless assets and factors in its favour which are timeless irrespective of the UK's membership of the EU. On that basis, I would rather bite the bullet and vote to leave than vote for the stagnating certainty of the status quo and the political stalemate that comes with it, with absolutely zero chance of meaningful domestic or EU reform.
http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/ ... uture.html

And this is him now...predicting a 10 year recession worse than anything in the last half a century...
Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.

In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.

Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.

Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.

Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.

All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.
The Brexit lies just never end. He was very happy to tell us "2 years of light pain" before the referendum. Now it's all unfolding its "10 years of the worst recession in our lifetimes.." all the while pretending this is what he predicted all along.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:43 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:20 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:40 pm
. You will note that I don't conflate all right of centre policy with fascism.
...well, *cough*, actually, you, Prufrock, and others do exactly that more often than you would seem to want to acknowledge with the occasional racism label thrown in (usually in the form of a oh so knowing, sarcastic 'brown people' comment).
Even were that the case it very much does not equate to lumping in any right of centre policy ideas into a "fascism basket".

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:55 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:43 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:20 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:40 pm
. You will note that I don't conflate all right of centre policy with fascism.
...well, *cough*, actually, you, Prufrock, and others do exactly that more often than you would seem to want to acknowledge with the occasional racism label thrown in (usually in the form of a oh so knowing, sarcastic 'brown people' comment).
Even were that the case it very much does not equate to lumping in any right of centre policy ideas into a "fascism basket".
There is also this strange idea that Brexit is driven by a right wing/fascist agenda (with obvious - to the propagators of this theory - racist overtones).
There can't possibly be any left of centre supporters of Brexit out there, no siree!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:21 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:43 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:20 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:40 pm
. You will note that I don't conflate all right of centre policy with fascism.
...well, *cough*, actually, you, Prufrock, and others do exactly that more often than you would seem to want to acknowledge with the occasional racism label thrown in (usually in the form of a oh so knowing, sarcastic 'brown people' comment).
Even were that the case it very much does not equate to lumping in any right of centre policy ideas into a "fascism basket".
There is also this strange idea that Brexit is driven by a right wing/fascist agenda (with obvious - to the propagators of this theory - racist overtones).
There can't possibly be any left of centre supporters of Brexit out there, no siree!
The idea of leaving the EU is very much not something historically associated with solely the right in this country, its been very much the hard left's view as well. In fact it has been the centre ground that has been pro EU on both sides of the political spectrum.

Like it or not however, Brexit was very much jumped on by the right hand side of the Tory party, by UKIP and by generally further to the right people and driven by that agenda. Sure it wasn't ONLY those elements involved, but essentially the Brexit noises have mainly come from the right. The agenda was primarily driven by anti-immigration, border control and sovereignty messaging, all things people associate with the more right-wing side of the Tory party and latterly UKIP. Whether reality or not it certainly is widely perceived that way. And why Corbyn (who was no EU supporter) couldn't afford to be seen on the Brexit side.

Of course people left of centre voted for Brexit, but given it is very hard to accurately pin down people's position on the political spectrum (given most have mixed views and mixed voting patterns), I'd still confidently predict that a greater number of Brexit voters came from the right.

I think what you're referring to is the commentary that "most voted for Brexit because of immigration"...which may be a perception more than a reality but certainly has had some data to support it. Those who voted for Brexit because they thought it would let us close our borders undoubtedly contain a nationalistic, xenophobic and racist element. And often that makes the loudest noise.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:42 pm

The loudest noise at the moment comes from told you so Remainers. Some of us voted Brexit knowing that the EU would punish us. Mr Varoufakis has consistently pointed out how extremely difficult this path will be, having been severely punished himself (by proxy) during the fiasco of the Greek fiscal crisis.
And yet we still voted for exit, and still believe a no negotiation hard Brexit will bring benefits, and potentially put much needed reform into the European political class. Not as much of course than if Catalonia has a hard seccession. That'll make Brexot look like parish council tiffs.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:38 pm
This is prominent Brexit campaigner Peter North a month or two before the Referendum....
At worst we have two years of unsettled markets where there will be winners and losers. But the fundamentals do not change. Britain is still a first world dynamic economy with countless assets and factors in its favour which are timeless irrespective of the UK's membership of the EU. On that basis, I would rather bite the bullet and vote to leave than vote for the stagnating certainty of the status quo and the political stalemate that comes with it, with absolutely zero chance of meaningful domestic or EU reform.
http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/ ... uture.html

And this is him now...predicting a 10 year recession worse than anything in the last half a century...
Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.

In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.

Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.

Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.

Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.

All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.
The Brexit lies just never end. He was very happy to tell us "2 years of light pain" before the referendum. Now it's all unfolding its "10 years of the worst recession in our lifetimes.." all the while pretending this is what he predicted all along.
Having re-read this post, three questions:
1. Why, having discovered that his first prediction was wrong (not that it has actually proved to be wrong yet!), do you then place any confidence that his second prediction will be correct?
2. And given the above, i.e. that you are complaining on the basis of an obviously unreliable prediction, from a knob who couldn't predict if the sun will rise tomorrow, why then, given his obvious anti-Brexit stance in his last prediction, label him as a Prominent Brexiteer?
3. And given 1 & 2, do you not feel a tad embarrassed after banging on about confirmation bias earlier?
Last edited by Lost Leopard Spot on Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:31 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:42 pm
The loudest noise at the moment comes from told you so Remainers. Some of us voted Brexit knowing that the EU would punish us. Mr Varoufakis has consistently pointed out how extremely difficult this path will be, having been severely punished himself (by proxy) during the fiasco of the Greek fiscal crisis.
And yet we still voted for exit, and still believe a no negotiation hard Brexit will bring benefits, and potentially put much needed reform into the European political class. Not as much of course than if Catalonia has a hard seccession. That'll make Brexot look like parish council tiffs.
Is it bringing about the reform you wanted? I'm not sure any left of centre voter could be happy with a rise in nationalism and jingoistic politics....

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:30 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:38 pm
This is prominent Brexit campaigner Peter North a month or two before the Referendum....
At worst we have two years of unsettled markets where there will be winners and losers. But the fundamentals do not change. Britain is still a first world dynamic economy with countless assets and factors in its favour which are timeless irrespective of the UK's membership of the EU. On that basis, I would rather bite the bullet and vote to leave than vote for the stagnating certainty of the status quo and the political stalemate that comes with it, with absolutely zero chance of meaningful domestic or EU reform.
http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/ ... uture.html

And this is him now...predicting a 10 year recession worse than anything in the last half a century...
Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.

In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.

Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.

Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.

Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.

All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.
The Brexit lies just never end. He was very happy to tell us "2 years of light pain" before the referendum. Now it's all unfolding its "10 years of the worst recession in our lifetimes.." all the while pretending this is what he predicted all along.
Having re-read this post, two questions:
1. Why, having discovered that his first prediction was wrong (not that it has actually proved to be wrong yet!), do you then place any confidence that his second prediction will be correct?
2. And given the above, i.e. that you are complaining on the basis of an obviously unreliable prediction, from a knob who couldn't predict if the sun will rise tomorrow, why then, given his obvious anti-Brexit stance in his last prediction, label him as a Prominent Brexiteer?
3. And given 1 & 2, do you not feel a tad embarrassed after banging on about confirmation bias earlier?
1) Because its obvious that I'm intimating that his first prediction was either a bare-faced lie or the ramblings of someone without any actual basis to make them.
2) He still backs Brexit. He thinks a very deep and long recession will do us all good. He's still pro-Brexit. He's just trying to pretend he knew it would be really hard all along (inspite of initially promising little hardship and refuting any claims otherwise).
3) No, given 1 and 2, still no.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:46 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:31 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:42 pm
The loudest noise at the moment comes from told you so Remainers. Some of us voted Brexit knowing that the EU would punish us. Mr Varoufakis has consistently pointed out how extremely difficult this path will be, having been severely punished himself (by proxy) during the fiasco of the Greek fiscal crisis.
And yet we still voted for exit, and still believe a no negotiation hard Brexit will bring benefits, and potentially put much needed reform into the European political class. Not as much of course than if Catalonia has a hard seccession. That'll make Brexot look like parish council tiffs.
Is it bringing about the reform you wanted? I'm not sure any left of centre voter could be happy with a rise in nationalism and jingoistic politics....
Some of us, left of centre voters, feel that what you call nationalism and jingoistic politics can be best expressed as Nativism*.
And no, no reform has taken place. It was never likely to have done until after the fallout - that was always obvious.

*And before you get on your high horse about Nativists as being fascist and racist I'd like to point out that amongst our long lost brethren we number the Jews exiled to Babylonia, Crazy Horse (and Red Cloud, and Sitting Bull - all of whom complained about the palefaces destroying their land), Queen Lilliokulani, the Brigantes, and the Irish and Scot émigrés to the New World.
The discerning amongst you will note that at least two of the above were hostile to each other - that's the f**cking nature of existence I'm afraid.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:20 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:46 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:31 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:42 pm
The loudest noise at the moment comes from told you so Remainers. Some of us voted Brexit knowing that the EU would punish us. Mr Varoufakis has consistently pointed out how extremely difficult this path will be, having been severely punished himself (by proxy) during the fiasco of the Greek fiscal crisis.
And yet we still voted for exit, and still believe a no negotiation hard Brexit will bring benefits, and potentially put much needed reform into the European political class. Not as much of course than if Catalonia has a hard seccession. That'll make Brexot look like parish council tiffs.
Is it bringing about the reform you wanted? I'm not sure any left of centre voter could be happy with a rise in nationalism and jingoistic politics....
Some of us, left of centre voters, feel that what you call nationalism and jingoistic politics can be best expressed as Nativism*.
And no, no reform has taken place. It was never likely to have done until after the fallout - that was always obvious.

*And before you get on your high horse about Nativists as being fascist and racist I'd like to point out that amongst our long lost brethren we number the Jews exiled to Babylonia, Crazy Horse (and Red Cloud, and Sitting Bull - all of whom complained about the palefaces destroying their land), Queen Lilliokulani, the Brigantes, and the Irish and Scot émigrés to the New World.
The discerning amongst you will note that at least two of the above were hostile to each other - that's the f**cking nature of existence I'm afraid.
Some things you could argue that. It isn't incongruous to be left wing and want to limit or control immigration. It is however, harder to reconcile being left of centre and being happy in the rise of "England for the English", "rights for whites" stuff that certainly has increased since Brexit.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:56 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:20 pm
It isn't incongruous to be left wing and want to limit or control immigration. It is however, harder to reconcile being left of centre and being happy in the rise of "England for the English", "rights for whites" stuff that certainly has increased since Brexit.
It doesn't need a university degree to realise that the " "England for the English", "rights for whites"" you speak of is - political party regardless- a phenomenon of the modern era and in the news for a very simple reason: It's happening now and not as a result of Brexit but as a result of circumstances as where previously it wasn't quite such an issue or so magnified. A surge of Jamaicans arrived here in the fifties, but the current lunacy (yes lunacy) is a result of world upset in areas where previous immigration was nothing out of the norm. There is no war strife in England, the standards of living in England, its N.H.S and living benefits must seem like wonderland to what the immigrants had (are having) in their own countries. Consequently, overpopulating areas will (is doing) happen. The only possible solution is to address it and get it under control, far easier said than done when our "leaders" can't agree what day it is. Finger pointing, blaming each other and using all sorts of nefarious arguments is just talk. Authority here is just a nation of delegators, not decision makers, who want the titles and the salaries but not the sleeves up spade work. We talk a good fight but do little but that.

Ha, political unity? Without stepping off the hopscotch board, here in Bolton we have a history of dissent. We were an Ironside stronghold against King and Country in the English Civil War, supporting Parliament ( what a xxxxin laugh) when most of Lancashire opted the other way. It cost 1000 Boltonions dead and almost as many captured to prove we made a wrong choice that time. Labour ruled when we were blue collar workers and had industry. That's also history and calling for different strokes and politics..but is anybody joining hands to reach a solution common to all? Not a cat in hell's chance. I'm all right Jack has never been stronger. It's why politics is just such a massive waste of time and always will be. We voted Brexit (yes, I did) because we really had no idea what it was truly all about beyond fine speeches and brave new world banners. Either make good the promises and sort it out or stop the bullshit and step aside. Who for? This is where I admit I haven't a xxxxing clue.

Hoboh's "real world" isn't something you should be laughing at, it very much exists all around you. This morning my wife rang her doctor and was told she had an appointment for next Monday....to speak to a doctor, not in his surgery but by telephone. He will then decide if she needs to see him. All she wanted was a perscription. That never ever happened before. Government solution...we need to make cuts. Does it take Einstein to know why?

Amen. ae:)
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:43 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:56 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:20 pm
It isn't incongruous to be left wing and want to limit or control immigration. It is however, harder to reconcile being left of centre and being happy in the rise of "England for the English", "rights for whites" stuff that certainly has increased since Brexit.
It doesn't need a university degree to realise that the " "England for the English", "rights for whites"" you speak of is - political party regardless- a phenomenon of the modern era and in the news for a very simple reason: It's happening now and not as a result of Brexit but as a result of circumstances as where previously it wasn't quite such an issue or so magnified. A surge of Jamaicans arrived here in the fifties, but the current lunacy (yes lunacy) is a result of world upset in areas where previous immigration was nothing out of the norm. There is no war strife in England, the standards of living in England, its N.H.S and living benefits must seem like wonderland to what the immigrants had (are having) in their own countries. Consequently, overpopulating areas will (is doing) happen. The only possible solution is to address it and get it under control, far easier said than done when our "leaders" can't agree what day it is. Finger pointing, blaming each other and using all sorts of nefarious arguments is just talk. Authority here is just a nation of delegators, not decision makers, who want the titles and the salaries but not the sleeves up spade work. We talk a good fight but do little but that.

Ha, political unity? Without stepping off the hopscotch board, here in Bolton we have a history of dissent. We were an Ironside stronghold against King and Country in the English Civil War, supporting Parliament ( what a xxxxin laugh) when most of Lancashire opted the other way. It cost 1000 Boltonions dead and almost as many captured to prove we made a wrong choice that time. Labour ruled when we were blue collar workers and had industry. That's also history and calling for different strokes and politics..but is anybody joining hands to reach a solution common to all? Not a cat in hell's chance. I'm all right Jack has never been stronger. It's why politics is just such a massive waste of time and always will be. We voted Brexit (yes, I did) because we really had no idea what it was truly all about beyond fine speeches and brave new world banners. Either make good the promises and sort it out or stop the bullshit and step aside. Who for? This is where I admit I haven't a xxxxing clue.

Hoboh's "real world" isn't something you should be laughing at, it very much exists all around you. This morning my wife rang her doctor and was told she had an appointment for next Monday....to speak to a doctor, not in his surgery but by telephone. He will then decide if she needs to see him. All she wanted was a perscription. That never ever happened before. Government solution...we need to make cuts. Does it take Einstein to know why?

Amen. ae:)
1) I'm sure you realise but anti immigration stances and England for the English are nothing new. There was a lot of sentiment during the 50s Afro Caribbean immigration.

2) Einstein? I think it might. Read that blog post, by a staunch supporter of Brexit. His prediction now is we won't be able to sustain the NHS at even current levels as we won't be able to staff it without free EU movement, or afford it. For the vast majority of this country public services are stretched because they've been hacked to pieces by Thatcher, Major and Cameron and now May. We are suffering from chronically under funded public services. In certain specific areas of the country they do suffer locally from immigration. Especially rural towns. They are very specific cases. The majority of the country, including Bolton and the North West relies on immigration economically and practically. Essentially the NHS, ability to get appointments etc...Brexit is only going to make that worse. And that's coming from a leading brexiteer...you've been conned thinking otherwise.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:09 pm

To be fair, one of the cornerstones of Peter North's latest blog is that it's problematic how the Pakistanis are all feck each other so I'd treat his views with some caution.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:34 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:43 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:56 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:20 pm
It isn't incongruous to be left wing and want to limit or control immigration. It is however, harder to reconcile being left of centre and being happy in the rise of "England for the English", "rights for whites" stuff that certainly has increased since Brexit.
It doesn't need a university degree to realise that the " "England for the English", "rights for whites"" you speak of is - political party regardless- a phenomenon of the modern era and in the news for a very simple reason: It's happening now and not as a result of Brexit but as a result of circumstances as where previously it wasn't quite such an issue or so magnified. A surge of Jamaicans arrived here in the fifties, but the current lunacy (yes lunacy) is a result of world upset in areas where previous immigration was nothing out of the norm. There is no war strife in England, the standards of living in England, its N.H.S and living benefits must seem like wonderland to what the immigrants had (are having) in their own countries. Consequently, overpopulating areas will (is doing) happen. The only possible solution is to address it and get it under control, far easier said than done when our "leaders" can't agree what day it is. Finger pointing, blaming each other and using all sorts of nefarious arguments is just talk. Authority here is just a nation of delegators, not decision makers, who want the titles and the salaries but not the sleeves up spade work. We talk a good fight but do little but that.

Ha, political unity? Without stepping off the hopscotch board, here in Bolton we have a history of dissent. We were an Ironside stronghold against King and Country in the English Civil War, supporting Parliament ( what a xxxxin laugh) when most of Lancashire opted the other way. It cost 1000 Boltonions dead and almost as many captured to prove we made a wrong choice that time. Labour ruled when we were blue collar workers and had industry. That's also history and calling for different strokes and politics..but is anybody joining hands to reach a solution common to all? Not a cat in hell's chance. I'm all right Jack has never been stronger. It's why politics is just such a massive waste of time and always will be. We voted Brexit (yes, I did) because we really had no idea what it was truly all about beyond fine speeches and brave new world banners. Either make good the promises and sort it out or stop the bullshit and step aside. Who for? This is where I admit I haven't a xxxxing clue.

Hoboh's "real world" isn't something you should be laughing at, it very much exists all around you. This morning my wife rang her doctor and was told she had an appointment for next Monday....to speak to a doctor, not in his surgery but by telephone. He will then decide if she needs to see him. All she wanted was a perscription. That never ever happened before. Government solution...we need to make cuts. Does it take Einstein to know why?

Amen. ae:)
1) I'm sure you realise but anti immigration stances and England for the English are nothing new. There was a lot of sentiment during the 50s Afro Caribbean immigration.

2) Einstein? I think it might. Read that blog post, by a staunch supporter of Brexit. His prediction now is we won't be able to sustain the NHS at even current levels as we won't be able to staff it without free EU movement, or afford it. For the vast majority of this country public services are stretched because they've been hacked to pieces by Thatcher, Major and Cameron and now May. We are suffering from chronically under funded public services. In certain specific areas of the country they do suffer locally from immigration. Especially rural towns. They are very specific cases. The majority of the country, including Bolton and the North West relies on immigration economically and practically. Essentially the NHS, ability to get appointments etc...Brexit is only going to make that worse. And that's coming from a leading brexiteer...you've been conned thinking otherwise.
Mmmm I see you tactfully leave out Blair and Brown with the huge ball and chain of this.
PFI deals were invented in 1992 by the Conservative government led by Sir John Major, but became widespread under Labour after 1997.
Of course your not a knight in shining armour (because being the good old Marxist he is Corbyn would refuse it) will sort it all out, won't he?

Face facts, they all bloody well screw us (average Joe public) over, it is merely a question of who leaves the biggest mess!
You love to think I am right wing, yes I do think somethings have to be stamped on, hard, too many excuses are found these days for, well basically, pricks, on the other hand there are people who are really in need of help and I have absolutely no problem with that.

NHS cuts should not happen but nor can they be given a blank cheque, my own experience and I know you are fond of pooh poohing what I know of others in a similar position but it bares out that the organisation and management is piss poor at times, should we keep wasting money on this?

I'm sorry but in my opinion the general state of our nation is going down hill, not because of Brexit but because through years of softly softly, we as a country are getting lazy and spineless and relying on others to provide, rant over!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:34 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:43 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:56 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:20 pm
It isn't incongruous to be left wing and want to limit or control immigration. It is however, harder to reconcile being left of centre and being happy in the rise of "England for the English", "rights for whites" stuff that certainly has increased since Brexit.
It doesn't need a university degree to realise that the " "England for the English", "rights for whites"" you speak of is - political party regardless- a phenomenon of the modern era and in the news for a very simple reason: It's happening now and not as a result of Brexit but as a result of circumstances as where previously it wasn't quite such an issue or so magnified. A surge of Jamaicans arrived here in the fifties, but the current lunacy (yes lunacy) is a result of world upset in areas where previous immigration was nothing out of the norm. There is no war strife in England, the standards of living in England, its N.H.S and living benefits must seem like wonderland to what the immigrants had (are having) in their own countries. Consequently, overpopulating areas will (is doing) happen. The only possible solution is to address it and get it under control, far easier said than done when our "leaders" can't agree what day it is. Finger pointing, blaming each other and using all sorts of nefarious arguments is just talk. Authority here is just a nation of delegators, not decision makers, who want the titles and the salaries but not the sleeves up spade work. We talk a good fight but do little but that.

Ha, political unity? Without stepping off the hopscotch board, here in Bolton we have a history of dissent. We were an Ironside stronghold against King and Country in the English Civil War, supporting Parliament ( what a xxxxin laugh) when most of Lancashire opted the other way. It cost 1000 Boltonions dead and almost as many captured to prove we made a wrong choice that time. Labour ruled when we were blue collar workers and had industry. That's also history and calling for different strokes and politics..but is anybody joining hands to reach a solution common to all? Not a cat in hell's chance. I'm all right Jack has never been stronger. It's why politics is just such a massive waste of time and always will be. We voted Brexit (yes, I did) because we really had no idea what it was truly all about beyond fine speeches and brave new world banners. Either make good the promises and sort it out or stop the bullshit and step aside. Who for? This is where I admit I haven't a xxxxing clue.

Hoboh's "real world" isn't something you should be laughing at, it very much exists all around you. This morning my wife rang her doctor and was told she had an appointment for next Monday....to speak to a doctor, not in his surgery but by telephone. He will then decide if she needs to see him. All she wanted was a perscription. That never ever happened before. Government solution...we need to make cuts. Does it take Einstein to know why?

Amen. ae:)
1) I'm sure you realise but anti immigration stances and England for the English are nothing new. There was a lot of sentiment during the 50s Afro Caribbean immigration.

2) Einstein? I think it might. Read that blog post, by a staunch supporter of Brexit. His prediction now is we won't be able to sustain the NHS at even current levels as we won't be able to staff it without free EU movement, or afford it. For the vast majority of this country public services are stretched because they've been hacked to pieces by Thatcher, Major and Cameron and now May. We are suffering from chronically under funded public services. In certain specific areas of the country they do suffer locally from immigration. Especially rural towns. They are very specific cases. The majority of the country, including Bolton and the North West relies on immigration economically and practically. Essentially the NHS, ability to get appointments etc...Brexit is only going to make that worse. And that's coming from a leading brexiteer...you've been conned thinking otherwise.
Mmmm I see you tactfully leave out Blair and Brown with the huge ball and chain of this.
PFI deals were invented in 1992 by the Conservative government led by Sir John Major, but became widespread under Labour after 1997.
Of course your not a knight in shining armour (because being the good old Marxist he is Corbyn would refuse it) will sort it all out, won't he?

Face facts, they all bloody well screw us (average Joe public) over, it is merely a question of who leaves the biggest mess!
You love to think I am right wing, yes I do think somethings have to be stamped on, hard, too many excuses are found these days for, well basically, pricks, on the other hand there are people who are really in need of help and I have absolutely no problem with that.

NHS cuts should not happen but nor can they be given a blank cheque, my own experience and I know you are fond of pooh poohing what I know of others in a similar position but it bares out that the organisation and management is piss poor at times, should we keep wasting money on this?

I'm sorry but in my opinion the general state of our nation is going down hill, not because of Brexit but because through years of softly softly, we as a country are getting lazy and spineless and relying on others to provide, rant over!
PFI was a terrible idea. But the one thing Blair and Brown did do was fund the NHS and other public services to levels never seen before. At one point they actually had the NHS meeting its performance targets like never before.

The right's constant response to the NHS and public sector is deflection, blame the immigrants or blame the managers. Whilst at the same time slowly withdrawing more and more money.

Forget the EU and the rights or wrongs of Brexit, if one thing boils my piss it's the public allowing themselves to have the wool pulled over their eyes by this nonsense.
Last edited by BWFC_Insane on Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:25 pm

And, to make not too fine a point, if there is anything "that boils my piss" it's this constant fxcking use of political statistics to play political football with the NHS. I live in the Midlands in a rural dispersed area. My GPs are rated outstanding in EVERY single category. I've spent months in hospital in Derby in A&E and two different units and been given nothing but outstanding treatment. I don't even know what a waiting list is... when I fell ill the last time, I was in A&E and then on a specialist ward within hours. After I was discharged from the emergency, the follow up by specialist nurses was stupendous. And finally, when the root cause of all my problems was finally discovered, the NHS organised a specialist surgeon from abroad to operate. I owe my life to the NHS, and I've not seen a single instance of the bollocks that people wank on about.
That's not a leopard!
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