Euro 2012

[William the White]

Cos perhaps someone should tell Hodgson the magic formula to create Xavi and Iniesta.

There are special players, of course, though they aren't produced by magic. Their natural skills and abilities are honed by the learned skills of coaches and - occasionally - visionaries... And prosper in a certain kind of culture, which, i'm happy to concede, does not necessarily fall into the identical mould, from country to country or continent to continent... But certain countries don't need to wait for the fortuitous, as you seem to imagine it, arrival of the occasional genius. Their names appear as winners of international tournaments across decades. Brazil, Italy, Germany. There's a sort of second layer - inc Argentina, France, Holland who don't stop at a single victory and continue to compete seriously even after the 'golden generation'. There are the no hopers who can never win. And there's the we did it once third tier. like England, Greece, Denmark...

I think there's something wrong with our football that that is the company we are in...

[BWFC_Insane]

Personally I don't think there is any one neat reason.

Some of it is down to our society.

Some is down to our climate.

Some is as LK says, and I agree, down to coaching.

Some is down to the structure of club football in the country.

Some the media.


The list can go on and on.
I also think that it's a dangerous game to paint large swathes of time with such broad strokes. International tournaments rely on lots of things coming together, players at their peak, all fit, top form etc, even a bit luck.

Yes England may have not won as much as we might want. Id like to change that.

And Ive no doubt that things could be put in place to do it.

We need better players. Plain and simple. And more qualified coaches from grass roots up. No issue there.

But you can't just wipe out a countries football culture and try and reinvent it along another countries lines. Not in my book. You can't change cultures of 92 clubs and millions upon millions of fans in what is reckoned to be one of if not the top watched leagues in the world. And one that has produced several champions league winners. It's not going to happen. Tweak it maybe.

The last times we came close were the semis in 1990 and 1996.

And we came close then because of the quality of our individual players.

Ultimately let's not forget the culture of club football in this country is far stronger than that of the national team. I'm not sure you will ever change that, and elsewhere that is not so much the case.

[Lord Kangana]

Interestingly Henry Winter*'s opinion on Wellbeck's goal was that he meant it, because he had witnessed the youth set-up at Carrington, where a particular coach (his name escapes me) encourages players to improvise, think out of the box, try the audacious and outrageous. If thats true, and if indeed Wellbeck did mean it (and only he truly knows) then that in itself is compelling evidence for the quality of coaching making a difference.

*One of my favourite past-times to while away the pre-match hours whilst listening to the radio is to play Winter-Bingo. A full house would typically include "wonderful captaincy of Steven Gerrard" "The future of English football is Phil Jones" and "Andy Carroll is the best centre forward since Shearer/in England/ever". Its quite easy, he obliges every time he opens his mouth. Indeed, I'm inclined to think the only things he ever writes/says are a variation on the above.

[BWFC_Insane]

Interestingly Henry Winter*'s opinion on Wellbeck's goal was that he meant it, because he had witnessed the youth set-up at Carrington, where a particular coach (his name escapes me) encourages players to improvise, think out of the box, try the audacious and outrageous. If thats true, and if indeed Wellbeck did mean it (and only he truly knows) then that in itself is compelling evidence for the quality of coaching making a difference.

*One of my favourite past-times to while away the pre-match hours whilst listening to the radio is to play Winter-Bingo. A full house would typically include "wonderful captaincy of Steven Gerrard" "The future of English football is Phil Jones" and "Andy Carroll is the best centre forward since Shearer/in England/ever". Its quite easy, he obliges every time he opens his mouth. Indeed, I'm inclined to think the only things he ever writes/says are a variation on the above.

I'm not sure whether I'd class it as compelling evidence, more like anecdotal jibber jabber.

But that aside, I think there is clearly a link between coaching quality and player quality (wonder if you're going to apply that to Mr Coyle, I look forward to that), but equally is it a myth or did a lot of the great brazilians down the years learn their trade partially at least, uncoached on the beach/street?

[Lord Kangana]

Woah there, Brazil??

Name 1 other country that has been even remotely successful in the last 40 years without a coherent coaching structure, and I'll name you half a dozen that have with.

It works in every sport too. Most people think that Jamaica are successful at track and field because black people run fast. This is of course nonsense, and proven nonsense at that, they have a highly structured and competitive system and its their national sport. And what about British Olympics? A few years ago we used to scrat around for a handful of bronze medals, yet in the most recent Olympics we went toe-to-toe with the best and brought a plethora of medals back. I suspect its a complete coincidence that these were in the disciplines that were targeted for heavy funding by New Labour*?


*I sing no praises of this, it was clearly a political stunt, but it worked. So funding and coaching works.

[BWFC_Insane]

Woah there, Brazil??

Name 1 other country that has been even remotely successful in the last 40 years without a coherent coaching structure, and I'll name you half a dozen that have with.

It works in every sport too. Most people think that Jamaica are successful at track and field because black people run fast. This is of course nonsense, and proven nonsense at that, they have a highly structured and competitive system and its their national sport. And what about British Olympics? A few years ago we used to scrat around for a handful of bronze medals, yet in the most recent Olympics we went toe-to-toe with the best and brought a plethora of medals back. I suspect its a complete coincidence that these were in the disciplines that were targeted for heavy funding by New Labour*?


*I sing no praises of this, it was clearly a political stunt, but it worked. So funding and coaching works.

I don't disagree, but equally you can only work with the raw materials you've got. Irrespective of how good our coaching is, I doubt we'd ever produce consistently as good long distance runners as Kenya do for example.

Allardyce and his 'fat kids' diatribe 10 years back or so, wasn't far off the money for me. And having a load of qualified coaches can't fix that!

[Lord Kangana]

Say like Coe, Ovett and Cram?

You can, if you want it enough.

[Lord Kangana]

That was a quality goal btw.

[Wandering Willy]

Can someone explain to me how Holland can go through to the quarters?

[bristolwanderer]

Peach of a goal!

[Annoyed Grunt]

Can someone explain to me how Holland can go through to the quarters?

Germany win, Holland win by 2 clear goals.

Good goal by Van Der Vaart.

[Lord Kangana]

Can someone explain to me how Holland can go through to the quarters?

If they win 2-0 and Germany win, they will have superior goal difference to the other two.

[Wandering Willy]

Can someone explain to me how Holland can go through to the quarters?

Germany win, Holland win by 2 clear goals.

Good goal by Van Der Vaart.

Err - then Holland and Denmark have the same points but Denmark beat Holland in a head to head (a la Greece/Russia) and therefore the bacon makers go through.

Head to head before goal difference isn't it?

[bristolwanderer]

Germany 1-0 up

[Wandering Willy]

To answer my own question I think head to head only applies when 2 (not 3 or 4) teams are tied on points.

[bristolwanderer]

Denmark equalise.. as do Portugal..

[Wandering Willy]

BWFC Chorley Whites flag behind the goal Ronaldo just scored in.

[TANGODANCER]

1-1 but the Ports all over Holland right now.

[Lord Kangana]

Can someone explain to me how Holland can go through to the quarters?

Germany win, Holland win by 2 clear goals.

Good goal by Van Der Vaart.

Err - then Holland and Denmark have the same points but Denmark beat Holland in a head to head (a la Greece/Russia) and therefore the bacon makers go through.

Head to head before goal difference isn't it?

Err, no.

[Wandering Willy]

I've already worked it out, Linbergh.