Champions League Final

[sluffy]

I think I understand what you are saying - but I'm still confused!

You seem to be saying that you don't blame anyone without a genuine ticket from trying to get into the ground - but - that once they are in that they don't belong there.

Isn't that like saying you don't blame anyone going 'armed' to commit a crime - but once they commit the crime then they are in the wrong?

If so - in English law at least - isn't going armed to commit a crime (say knowingly taking a forged ticket to try to gain entry to a match) a crime in itself?

Indeed it is a crime, and that is why people were arrested attempting to gain entry without genuine tickets, which I fully support. I don't blame anyone who takes that chance, because the systems are and should be in place to prevent it - they know that trying to get into the ground with a fake ticket is a criminal offence, and if they get arrested they are fully aware that that was a likely consequence of their actions.

In the same way (and perhaps to try and give you an example to aid your understanding of my position on the matter) I don't mind someone trying to bunk onto a train without paying - that's their decision and up to them, but I won't listen to their moans when the ticket inspector comes round and catches them and charges them full fare or any appropriate penalty instead of a cheaper ticket they could have bought at the station. You pays your money (or not), you takes your choice. Not everyone will bunk on a train, not everyone will try a fake ticket at the ground.

Ok - thanks for that.

I personally would not condone 'gate crashers' (with or without forged tickets), fare dodgers, etc.

I do know it goes on - but I would lay the blame for it happening at the feet of those doing it and not the authorities that are trying to prevent it. Some how I thought you would have had a similar view - but I'm obviously mistaken about that.

[TANGODANCER]

So, to sum up then: AC Milan 2-Liverpool 0. About says it all?

I think you must have left before the final whistle!

Liverpool's goal was offside: Okay then, 2-1 if you want to nitpick.

[blurred]

Would you have listened to the moans if, God forbid, another 96 people got crushed to death because 1,000 fans without tickets attempted to blag it?

That's what does not stand up for me, I'm afraid. And that's taking into account UEFA and Greek incompetence, of which much was in evidence.

Scousers think they march to a different drum and normal rules don't apply to them, that's the bottom line.

How about if said train derails because it is so overcrowded there is a weight distribution problem on a corner.
Would you then blame the train operator, the carriage designer, the ticket officer, the government and the British Transport Police?

Again, both of these I have answered previously - the blame lies jointly between those who have gained illegal access by whatever means

*****

Had there been a tragedy at the OAKA Stadium yesterday, then yes you would easily be able to look at how many fans inside the ground did not have tickets, and it would be easy to point the finger at these (as certain clubs' fans and sections of the media would be more than happy to do).

But also those whose jobs it is to prevent such things from happening.

What I can guarantee (partly from having read the opinions of people who weren't there yesterday, including people on here) is that nobody would go back and think 'well, hang on, why aren't there 5,000 people without tickets at Anfield (or any other ground) every week?' Just how did these fans get in without a ticket? The demand exists for all Liverpool games already, whether they're Champions League or Premiership or FA Cup, because we're going to be building a 60odd thousand seater stadium in the coming years. Man United have got fans coming out of the rafters, but thousands of supporters do not get in there without a ticket every week.

Having been on Virgin Trains back from footie games that are standing room only and have platform staff shoving people on to them to get more people through the doors, I hope that such a thing never happens, and is incredibly unlikely, but I do realise you were just continuing the analogy to make a point.

[blurred]

So, to sum up then: AC Milan 2-Liverpool 0. About says it all?

I think you must have left before the final whistle!

Liverpool's goal was offside: Okay then, 2-1 if you want to nitpick.

And Milan's first was supposedly handball, so it's 1-0 now?

[TANGODANCER]

So, to sum up then: AC Milan 2-Liverpool 0. About says it all?

I think you must have left before the final whistle!

Liverpool's goal was offside: Okay then, 2-1 if you want to nitpick.

And Milan's first was supposedly handball, so it's 1-0 now?

Whilst admitting freely that AC's first goal was a total fluke in that Reina had the shot covered, I've seen it a good few times and it came of chest/shoulder. Not even a shout for handall on the replay footage.

[blurred]

Whilst admitting freely that AC's first goal was a total fluke in that Reina had the shot covered, I've seen it a good few times and it came of chest/shoulder. Not even a shout for handall on the replay footage.

Fair enough - I'm really going on a few newspaper headlines I've seen in the airport more than anything.

[blurred]

Right now chaps, it's competition time. One of the three images below is an official UEFA Champions League Final ticket - it has the requisite hologram and a white strip which when a UV light is shined upon shows images unique to this event.

The other two are means by which a) one person I know got through 5 of the 6 ticket checks, and b) by estimates that I saw at least a dozen people managed to gain access to the stadium (and from stories I've heard, this figure is probably well into 3 figures)?

Can you tell the difference? For an extra bonus point, can you tell me which one is just a boarding card from that morning's flight? And which is just a leaflet given out for information in Athens?

http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 060rg2.png

http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 061nw1.png

http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 062sf3.png

Well, did you tell the difference? You did?

Sorry, you can't have a job as a steward or Greek policeman at the Champions League Final - you are far too competent.

[Nozza]

The boarding pass is the middle one....
if you're a Liverpool fan

[CrazyHorse]

Forget the ticket fiasco, it's time someone invested in a new scanner for crying out loud!

[boltonboris]

Forget the ticket fiasco, it's time someone invested in a new scanner for crying out loud!

He used his new one to get into the ground!

[blurred]

Forget the ticket fiasco, it's time someone invested in a new scanner for crying out loud!

It's a shitty work one, don't go blaming me!

Can those of you on the outside now see why I'm crying on about how totally f*cking inept the ticket checks were, though? And that's before you've got people without a piece of paper, too. I've also heard people saying there was a fella on the telly saying that he got in with a JJB Sports voucher or something?

This is just no way to run a fecking raffle, never mind a football game (especially one of this magnitude).

Farce.

[TANGODANCER]

[blurred]

Surely it'd be better to get a Man United mock up with

AIG - Another Inzaghi Goal?

[fatshaft]

You can't have it both ways mate. If they only went for the atmosphere, as you claim, then what were they doing at the stadium in the first place? Complain about the organisation if you will, but don't try to justify the actions that caused it at the same time.

Exactly. Me and a crew of mates went out to Frankfurt for the World Cup last year. We had no tickets but we tried to pick some up outside the stadium. When it became clear that they were going to cost us a prohibitive amount we went back into the city to join all the other fans that had done likewise and had one hell of a party watching the Ecuador game on the big screen. It's what civilised types do!!!! We didn't try to find someone that'd sneak us in on the strength of one ticket, we didn't try to steal the tickets of others, we didn't try to enter the ground with anything other than a ticket for the game. we did not cause death amongst (a) Our own, like at Hillsborough (b) Others, like at Heysel, and then blame the local authorities. How come Liverpool fans labour under this misapprehension that they're the best in the world when death through dishonesty and selfishness, whilst always pointing blame at the relevant authorities, follows no other club, or country, in the world but them?

I think Bruce has finiched this discussion, there is nothing left to argue. One point though, how many Italians tried to cheat their way in? None I am presuming?

[warthog]

Having read through the 237 pages of bickering, it seems to me that there are two separate issues which have been lumped together as one.

1. The behaviour of some Liverpool fans.

Those who knowingly bought forged tickets, or forced their way into the ground know that their actions will result in more people being in the stadium than there should be. That's sickeningly irresponsible - especially given their club's history.

2. The incompetence of UEFA.

It's clear that the stadium and the stewarding of it were woefully lacking. Given UEFA's part in the Heysel disaster, that's equally sickening.

[enfieldwhite]

I'd just like to say that I have read most, if not all, of this post and would like to applaud blurred for resolutely sticking to his opinion and defending his club and the majority of his fans in the face of a barrage of criticism.

Whether we agree with him or not, I personally am impressed he has stuck with it and argued the toss. This is what makes me return to this site day after day, knowing that there is always a different perspective.

I am not taking the piss either.

[Bruce Rioja]

I am not taking the piss either.

Yes you are, it's what you do, you work for the Water Board.

Anyway, whilst I'm in disagreement with a lot of what Blurred has had to say on the issue......... (insert Voltaire quote here).

[sluffy]

I'd just like to say that I have read most, if not all, of this post and would like to applaud blurred for resolutely sticking to his opinion and defending his club and the majority of his fans in the face of a barrage of criticism.

Whether we agree with him or not, I personally am impressed he has stuck with it and argued the toss. This is what makes me return to this site day after day, knowing that there is always a different perspective.

I am not taking the piss either.

I too, share your views Enfield.

Blurred could easily have walked away from this site - on more than one occasion - due to the barrage of criticism he has faced over the season in respect of Liverpool (some of it justified some of most certainly not). However he has stayed and explained his viewpoint - and full credit to him for doing so.

[Bruce Rioja]

I think it's fair to point out also though, that many of us on here that took both the time and trouble to answer Blurred's questionairre on here earlier in the season received an absolute torrent of abuse for giving our honest opinion that Liverpool wouldn't actually win anything this season, which, of course, they haven't. Whereas there's a lot on here (myself included) that disagree with a lot of what Blurred has had to say, to the best of my knowledge nobody has resorted to the terms of abuse that greeted many of us for our honest take on things when our opinion disagreed with that of the locals on RAWK. I'll be honest, that actually makes me feel quite proud.

[TANGODANCER]

You can argue with a Scouser about any topic under the sun....except Liverpool.