Bolton Wanderers Forum The-Wanderer.co.uk

BWFC_Insane wrote: And how many players are in the England squad?

Only the very best English players make it in the premiership.

But only the very best players should play for England anyways.

How does it affect the national side that there aren't 200 average English players playing top flight football who'd never be selected for England anyways?

I shouldn't get involved during your period of mourning, but BWFCI is right. If they can't get into the club teams, they're not good enough, the best players are, get picked for England, and of course have the added benefit of playing against a vastly superior pool of players week in week out for their clubs.

The EPL "foreigners" argument is an absolute red herring for me.

blurred wrote:

Tombwfc wrote:Wasn't there a BBC report on foreigners that attempted to show that we've got far more than any other succesful nations. But infact showed us to have roughly the same amount as the Germans? Yes, the Germans who invairably qualify and reach the latter stages of major tournaments.

The English invariably qualify, too. Or at least they do when they have a competent manager, something they've lacked for the last couple of tournaments they've failed to qualify for (McLaren, Taylor, I'm looking at you). Under Sven the qualification was virtually guaranteed, because he knew what he was doing. It's amazing that in the space of a year or so McLaren's shown how easy a job it should be, and how comically bad at it he is. Despite losing away to Croatia, Russia and drawing at home to Macedonia we still only needed a draw from our last game. How could it be any simpler?

No it's becasue you are always top seeds, therefore anything less than group topping performances are in reality failure.

William the White wrote:There are no serious British contenders for the next manager, and that is a really serious comment on the domestic game.

What about that fat c*nt who is in charge up at Newcastle? Didn't he once guide a bunch of northern no-hopers to four consecutive top 8 finishes? Cos if he did then surely that would make him an ideal candidate.

Or would giving him the job mean the FA have to admit they got it wrong with McClaren?

fatshaft wrote:No it's becasue you are always top seeds, therefore anything less than group topping performances are in reality failure.

But we are there because of past performance, and will still be for a while (unless they appoint another clown and the spiral continues).

How many qualification games did England lose under Sven?
How long did it take McLaren to match and then beat that total?

Tombwfc wrote:

William the White wrote:There are no serious British contenders for the next manager, and that is a really serious comment on the domestic game.

There are only about 50 England-qualified players playing in the Prem most weekends - and none of any note playing abroad. That is an even more serious comment on the domestic game.

There is a clear systemic failure and it needs to be faced and addressed. And perhaps it's clubs like ours that need to be doing this - since the wealthy clubs, under intense pressure, and run by foreign managers with no interest in england's international football, will buy everyone they need from abroad.

We also, of course, pick up as high proportion of foreign players. but should we, and do we need to?

I'm not a xenophobe, and not on any anti-foreign rant. It's money that is the reason for this sea-change in the personnel of the English game, not anything else. But its effects are being felt seriously now - five injuries in the first choice England squad and we have a defence that can't defend, and a one-pronged attack. The quality level is low, at best. The depth is is too shallow. Serious competition for places barely exists.

EC regulation on free movement of labour means that only an act of will can bring about a change, there's no imminent way of regulating our way out of this. I'm not optimistic.

This excuse just doesn't hold water. We're we winning things left right and centre in the 80s when there were little to none foreigners in the league? No.

Having a league filled with mediocre players will do nothing for anybody. You'll note that Lescott, Campbell and Carson play week in week out for their clubs, and they weren't good enough last night. Thats not to do with foreign players.

Tom, I don't have the numbers, and I know it's not to the extent of now, but you're fogetting that in the 70s & 80s the English league was full of Scottish, IRish and Welsh players, it wasn't just an all - England preserve.

fatshaft wrote:Tom, I don't have the numbers, and I know it's not to the extent of now, but you're fogetting that in the 70s & 80s the English league was full of Scottish, IRish and Welsh players, it wasn't just an all - England preserve.

The point stands, though, that there were more English players in the league as a number/ratio before the inception of the Premiership and its influx of foreigners and yet England were no more successful in that period than they are now.

If we are going down the English route. Give it to Big Sam. My reasoning

He actually wants the job!!! I think not getting the job was one of his main motivations in moving to the barcodes. I just don't think he expected McMuppet to make such a balls up of it
so quickly. Ironically I think he'd now be in a stronger position had he stayed with us & we would'nt be in the relegation zone.

You need a culture of the good getting through for the excellent to emerge. And for the good to get through you need a culture of developing the promising.

There is a real difficulty in England-qualified players getting through. There is a higher proportion of home-grown players in the italian and spanish top leagues (to name the two leagues who also splash money to recruit star foreign players). And a very significant number of Spanish players playing abroad (and italian, but fewer, i suspect). There are very few English players being chased by the top european leagues. This is an indictment of our game. We are not producing players of the highest quality in sufficient number for our international side. Or our clubs.

To all those asking 'what's the point of having english journeymen' - it's a good question. A better question, is why is that what were are producing? And poor quality journeymen, it seems, judging by the way we employ non-international foreign players.

I'm not starry eyed about the English game in any epoch, and i recognise there have been make it to a quarter final teams for a long time. But it's been a while since we had a non-qualifying team. Well, we have now. Because injury and suspension meant we were playing people struggling to be genuine international class. Journeymen, if you like. Because that's what we are producing.

Croatia gave us a football lesson. They are a nation of 5 million.

William the White wrote:You need a culture of the good getting through for the excellent to emerge. And for the good to get through you need a culture of developing the promising.

There is a real difficulty in England-qualified players getting through. There is a higher proportion of home-grown players in the italian and spanish top leagues (to name the two leagues who also splash money to recruit star foreign players). And a very significant number of Spanish players playing abroad (and italian, but fewer, i suspect). There are very few English players being chased by the top european leagues. This is an indictment of our game. We are not producing players of the highest quality in sufficient number for our international side. Or our clubs.

To all those asking 'what's the point of having english journeymen' - it's a good question. A better question, is why is that what were are producing? And poor quality journeymen, it seems, judging by the way we employ non-international foreign players.

I'm not starry eyed about the English game in any epoch, and i recognise there have been make it to a quarter final teams for a long time. But it's been a while since we had a non-qualifying team. Well, we have now. Because injury and suspension meant we were playing people struggling to be genuine international class. Journeymen, if you like. Because that's what we are producing.

Croatia gave us a football lesson. They are a nation of 5 million.

Is the question not, why can't we produce different types of players in England?

We produce the same identikit player. Big strong, one-paced, decent in the air, but technically not as good as most players.

Gerrard, Barry, Lampard..All got good engines, all strong, all decent shots on them....all one-paced...all technically lacking in terms of fine touch, all incapable of beating a man.

Even Rooney, big strong lad, but technically he isn't as good as Olic or Eduardo.

We don't create variety.

For me thats the crux, not numbers.

BWFC_Insane wrote:

William the White wrote:You need a culture of the good getting through for the excellent to emerge. And for the good to get through you need a culture of developing the promising.

There is a real difficulty in England-qualified players getting through. There is a higher proportion of home-grown players in the italian and spanish top leagues (to name the two leagues who also splash money to recruit star foreign players). And a very significant number of Spanish players playing abroad (and italian, but fewer, i suspect). There are very few English players being chased by the top european leagues. This is an indictment of our game. We are not producing players of the highest quality in sufficient number for our international side. Or our clubs.

To all those asking 'what's the point of having english journeymen' - it's a good question. A better question, is why is that what were are producing? And poor quality journeymen, it seems, judging by the way we employ non-international foreign players.

I'm not starry eyed about the English game in any epoch, and i recognise there have been make it to a quarter final teams for a long time. But it's been a while since we had a non-qualifying team. Well, we have now. Because injury and suspension meant we were playing people struggling to be genuine international class. Journeymen, if you like. Because that's what we are producing.

Croatia gave us a football lesson. They are a nation of 5 million.

Is the question not, why can't we produce different types of players in England?

We produce the same identikit player. Big strong, one-paced, decent in the air, but technically not as good as most players.

Gerrard, Barry, Lampard..All got good engines, all strong, all decent shots on them....all one-paced...all technically lacking in terms of fine touch, all incapable of beating a man.

Even Rooney, big strong lad, but technically he isn't as good as Olic or Eduardo.

We don't create variety.

For me thats the crux, not numbers.

Essentially because of the structure of youth football in this country is the answer.

To be fair to the FA they have tried to tackle the very issue you raise by putting an emphasis on skill rather than physique in lower age groups (ie shorter games, smaller pitches etc etc) but we are unlikely to see this bear fruits for the best part of a decade.

Besides, as my dad says, we have always been technically inferior to many other nations, but have essentially bridged that gulf by tactics, teamwork and workrate.

Maybe we are starting to lack in these, or maybe football has moved on to such an extent that these will no longer compensate for our inadequacies

blurred wrote:

fatshaft wrote:Tom, I don't have the numbers, and I know it's not to the extent of now, but you're fogetting that in the 70s & 80s the English league was full of Scottish, IRish and Welsh players, it wasn't just an all - England preserve.

The point stands, though, that there were more English players in the league as a number/ratio before the inception of the Premiership and its influx of foreigners and yet England were no more successful in that period than they are now.

You know, what I find odd is that if the foreign inlux was simple & straightforward then the English (OK, British) players who these displaced would simply filter down into the next level & we'd have a superb quality second tier. But we don't !!

Why ?


Secondly, I can understand foriegn players of the top quality type coming to the top clubs, but there are all sorts of also play for Brasdford, Rotherham, Tranmere. That is, surely, pointless & really DOES hold back the local players.

We gotta have a manager bigger than the players ego's one who will not shy at dropping the underperforming, overpaid b*ggers if they don't deliver.
That means only one man who is available now it's gotta be jose!

Allardyce has just ruled himself out. Nobody else has ruled him in.

nice person.

Here's a thought-provoking piece on youth football from our old enemy Martin Samuel

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 910642.ece

(One could add that if he were put on a pitch in proportion with his own size it'd be wider than it is long)

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Here's a thought-provoking piece on youth football from our old enemy Martin Samuel

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 910642.ece

(One could add that if he were put on a pitch in proportion with his own size it'd be wider than it is long)

Interseting; but I thought the FA already had a strategy to implement the very things he's asking for already in place. I'll have to dig through my old programmes, because I'm convinced I've already read an identical article but from or to do with the FA, and that it would start at the acadamies and over time would filter down to the rest of youth football.

I'm sure he's written this with prior knowledge, so he can claim credit later, and I'm surprised he didn't ask for compulsory inclusion of all Spurs and West Ham players in the squad as a guarantee of success.. The fat cockernee greaseball.


Now where are those programmes........

Zulus Thousand of em wrote:Allardyce has just ruled himself out. Nobody else has ruled him in.

tw*t.

Here's a bit more..
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528, ... 13,00.html

The lardy rent-a-gob magpie manager spouted (as per usual via the medium of his arse) to a journalist on Sky Sports News who then wrote:I'm contracted to Newcastle United, and from my point of view that contract needs to be honoured.

Aye cos it's all about honouring contracts with you, isn't it Sam?

I think you may well be right LK. Let's hope our ruling powers see through their good intentions, as they didn't with Burton-upon-Trent and aren't with the ruling that all top-flight managers need to be fully educated. Not that we need it, I mean, we won the World Cup 41 years ago didn't we...

Had this argument with a coach years and years ago (anyone know Dick Oxtoby), i was playing at the time for Silcoms in the old Combination and he used to have us in Breightmet gym with medicine balls, running us into the ground til our legs were like jelly.

At the end of a 2 hour training session, which was mostly repetitive circuit stuff, he'd let us get the ball out and have a 5 or 7 a side match.

I once asked him why we didn't get the ball out earlier and do perhaps 50/50 training and ballwork.

You'd have thought i'd asked him to sell his soul to the devil, he went ballistic, dropped me from the side for the next game and i left soon afterwards.

Modern English footballers are taught to be athletes first and ability is a very poor second.

Strange how Croatia didn't need tremendous athletes to stroke their way around us last night though?

i've just popped a little press release out ruling myself out of the job also

wouldn't want them wasting their time pursuing me

I've just issued a press release......

Commie honoured by England Job

Communistworkethic, the TW regular and sometime columnist, has today made himself available for the vacant England managers position.

The 30-something Boltonian has made no secret of his desire to manage the national side.

"Anyone would be honoured to take the £5million-a-year job," he said at the coffee machine this morning.

"You'd be mad to turn it down, I'd snap the FA's hands off if they offered it to me. Obviously the workload of 8 games a year on average, would be tough to fit in, but you'd be prepared to make sacrifices for the compensation the role brings."