Black & Ethnic Minority coaches

[wigan white]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news ... minorities

Not quite sure I agree with this. Surely its the choice of the individual whether they want to go into coaching and when i've seen many black/EM ex-players being interviewed, I would say the majority have said they've no interest into staying in football after they've finished playing, and not to be too simplistic, but surely the phrase "if you're good enough" should be the true meaning if you get a coaching job or not?
Is this not just "positive racism"?

[Gary the Enfield]

There are plenty enough black players in the premiership. The question has to be asked 'why they don't then go on to coach and manage?'

[Prufrock]

I think it's undoubtedly positive discrimination, the question is whether it's fine.

My own view on quotas is that, where you have far fewer of a particular group doing a job than you'd expect (so given the number of black players, far fewer black coaches than you'd expect; or given the % of the workforce they represent, far fewer women board-members or CEO's) then unless there's an explanation put forward as to why that is, then they (quotas) are usually going to be a good thing.

Women in boardrooms is probably an easier example to illustrate. I can't think of a reason why women taken over a large sample generally should be any less likely to be good in a boardroom or in charge of an organisation, yet there aren't anywhere near a representative number (4 or 5 female CEOs in the FTSE 100 I think). This seems to show there is an inbuilt discrimination. The problem is, I'd hope in the main part, that that discrimination isn't conscious, or direct, or intentional or even recognised in individual cases, yet the whole seems to show it must be there. The argument 'if you're good enough' clearly doesn't work, because if it was decided simply on whether you were good enough, then unless there's a compelling reason why women generally should be less good at it, then there'd be more than 5 female CEOs. So given that you're excluding 1/2 of all human talent and brain power from the table, it makes sense for everyone, including the businesses, to break that cycle. So I think quotas would be a good idea in some circumstances.

I think it probably applies in football too. Unless there's some reason why black people should be less good at coaching, then clearly the argument 'if you're good enough' isn't working, because if that's how it was decided you'd expect there to be more (and this isn't a freak year or anything) black managers and coaches. Again, I expect in the vast majority of cases it's not a conscious racist decision by the chairman, but whatever the reason it seems to throwing away a large part of the potential talent pool.

[wigan white]

For me the point is "Why do there have to be more black/EM coaches in the game" and its not being racist, for me skin colour doesnt come into it. If they do a good job then I couldn't care less if they're white, black, yellow, orange, from St.Helens etc......

As I said, its down to the personal choice of that player whether they want to go into coaching/management. I do agree that there is a potential "hidden reluctance" by chairman etc to appoint a "non-white" player but it doesn't need more meony being put into coaching black/Em coaches alone, its all about changing the mind-set of football in general.

I think more money should be put into creating better coaches full stop, as (im sure i've read somewhere but cant find it) that this country has one of the lowest amount of level 1-2 coaches out of most of the "Football proficient" countries within europe.

[Prufrock]

The argument is that you put more money into black/EM coaches so that you take away the 'hidden reluctance' - because hiring a black/EM coach is now the norm. Now without that nebulous indirect discrimination you don't need the quotas anymore and you're truly picking on ability.

If there are so few black coaches, we just cannot actually be picking on ability, as much as we all think we might be and all try to do. Even if the reason is an imagined racism - that because the numbers are so low black/EM coaches think there must be racism when in fact there isn't, it's just so few black coaches apply (because they think they won't get it due to this imagined racism) - even if that's the case, you're still not making the most of the talent pool, and so it's still better that you can get the numbers to be more representative.

The coaches thing I think is true, though not be as much as I thought it had been. Someone once defended this saying it's because in Spain and Germany you need those badges even to teach football in PE - as if that isn't sort of the point!

[boltonboris]

Could it not just be a generational thing? I mean, what's the average age of Premier League managers (I don't know and can't be arsed checking)

When that average age is translated to playing days at say 29/30 (the age when a footballer back then, I imagine was thinking about the next steps) how many black footballers were playing in Europe top leagues compared to now?

I don't know.. Just throwing it out there. I find the whole argument completely irritating in it's discriminatory tone to be honest. And it's the likes of Ince, Campbell etc, who are showing themselves to be somewhat more "them & us" than anybody else

[a1]

if youre gonna do this , can they do this the other way and make 80% of the players honkies. ?

"no sam you carnt sign samuel etto , we've got to many foriegn blacks in the first xi, youve got to sign this guy W.A.S.P. woman in a wheelchair instead"

[bobo the clown]

Positive Discrimination remsins discrimination and is a poor solution to an issue. Remove obstacles, encourage and look for improvements but do not solve one problem with another. It's condescending and leads to greater resentment from both sides of the equation. Only those who are unsecure will want it as a solution to the issue and for the activists it will never be enough. More will always be demanded.

I'm not even sure it's legal btw. No white guy will sue, of course, but they could.

[thebish]

Positive Discrimination remsins discrimination and is a poor solution to an issue. Remove obstacles, encourage and look for improvements but do not solve one problem with another.

what are the obstacles in this case - and how would you propose removing them?

[bobo the clown]

Positive Discrimination remsins discrimination and is a poor solution to an issue. Remove obstacles, encourage and look for improvements but do not solve one problem with another.

what are the obstacles in this case - and how would you propose removing them?

I'm not sure there are any. It was a comment on the heinous policy of positive discrimination in general.

[Bruce Rioja]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

[thebish]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

[Bruce Rioja]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that's that is what's happening.

[Bruce Rioja]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that that is what's happening.

[Bijou Bob]

I was once told by a recruitment psychologist that people "Recruit people like themselves". Remind me. How many non-white club owners do we have in the various leagues?

[bobo the clown]

I was once told by a recruitment psychologist that people "Recruit people like themselves". Remind me. How many non-white club owners do we have in the various leagues?

... & do you define "people like themselves" as purely a matter of colour ? C'mon man.

[Prufrock]

Best person for the job regardless of age, race, gender or any other external consideration. That's all.

I think everyone would agree with that, wouldn't they? question is - is that what's currently happening (keep Freedman out of it!!) - and if not, what, if anything, to do about it...

I think that's that is what's happening.

3.4% coaching jobs.

25% of players.

I used to think Boris' point was a good one, but it was the same 10 years ago. Watching football even in the nineties (so when Neil Lennon was playing) every team had three or four black players. Why aren't they getting coaching jobs then?

[Bruce Rioja]

3.4% coaching jobs.

25% of players.

I used to think Boris' point was a good one, but it was the same 10 years ago. Watching football even in the nineties (so when Neil Lennon was playing) every team had three or four black players. Why aren't they getting coaching jobs then?

And how many go on to take their coaching badges?

[Hoboh]

I just spat my coffee out, you of all folk posting this



If your good enough you get the job otherwise you don't, simples!

[boltonboris]

Paul ince lost any credibility when he said John Barnes should be given a top job based on his playing career.... Didn't he have numerous and pretty disastrous managerial appointments?