ED good memories or good riddence?

[Prufrock]

I'm sorry, I'm just not embarrassed.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I can assure you that BWFC don't have a global profile when it comes to the debt...at least not in this part of the globe. I suspect most other places too. Unless the news is about Man U et al then it isn't news.

Anyway, I couldn't give a shiny shit what others think of our club.

Really? There was a Wigan fan laughing at us on Twitter because they're buying Euxton.

I cried.

Yeah saw that, he called us "minnows". I felt sad too

They seem to have a thing about size. It's because they were non-league.

Or he's got a tiny prick.

[thebish]

I'm not sure why having a debt is an "embarassment" unless that debt then becomes a problem and you can't pay it back and you go tits-up. In our case - it got paid off/wiped/massively reduced and seems not to have been a problem for the new buyers. As Worthy has pointed out more than once - it's a LOT more embarassing to have a £1million debt that sinks you then a £200million debt that doesn't sink you, isn't it?

As I have been trying to point out more than once, it's an embarrassment when you rack up one of the world's biggest debts for a football club whilst simultaneously turning the team into shit and heading for multiple relegations, regardless of going bust or not (which it appears we only just avoided anyway, despite years of public reassurances it would never happen). It's not just about the debt but the whole mismanagement of the club. Leaving the non-playing staff uncertain over their Xmas wages left a sour taste in the mouth too.

as it turns out - the public reassurances were borne out! it seems we were right to be reassured! I'm not sure having a big debt turned the team to shit...
I still have an big embarrasment deficit here!

[LeverEnd]

Just to clarify, I didn't really cry, or even do a sad face
I just smirked at his desperation for any sort of oneupmanship victory!

[Jugs]

Has Eddie paid the tax bill?

[midlands exile]

I'm not sure why having a debt is an "embarassment" unless that debt then becomes a problem and you can't pay it back and you go tits-up. In our case - it got paid off/wiped/massively reduced and seems not to have been a problem for the new buyers. As Worthy has pointed out more than once - it's a LOT more embarassing to have a £1million debt that sinks you then a £200million debt that doesn't sink you, isn't it?

As I have been trying to point out more than once, it's an embarrassment when you rack up one of the world's biggest debts for a football club whilst simultaneously turning the team into shit and heading for multiple relegations, regardless of going bust or not (which it appears we only just avoided anyway, despite years of public reassurances it would never happen). It's not just about the debt but the whole mismanagement of the club. Leaving the non-playing staff uncertain over their Xmas wages left a sour taste in the mouth too.

as it turns out - the public reassurances were borne out! it seems we were right to be reassured! I'm not sure having a big debt turned the team to shit...
I still have an big embarrasment deficit here!

We were reassured that ED wouldn't drop us in it by suddenly pulling out, and the club had no immediate financial problems - so I'd say wrong on that count (despite SSG finally stepping in).

I wasn't saying the debt turned us to shit, I was saying that it's one thing massively overspending on the way to success (or close to it), but another when you're on such a dramatic drop in both league position and quality of the squad. Given the scale of our alleged debt and the scale of our fall from grace, we have had appalling value for money.

I think you're getting bogged down with the word embarrassment. How about the word disgrace instead? Or complete and utter shambles?

[Andy Waller]

His tenure at BWFC was like your mum and dad taking you to Disney Land every year for a few years then having to sell the house because you can't afford the bills.

All very well but at the end of the day, completely stupid.

[thebish]

I think you're getting bogged down with the word embarrassment. How about the word disgrace instead? Or complete and utter shambles?

nahh... the good memories are still easily outweighing the bad...

It's a bit like when I go to visit families of an elderly relative who has just died.. the memories of the last 2yrs of hospital and illness and fading health and emergencies and problems and if-onlies are often the only thing they can remember, and the only thing they need to talk about... but after a while, it becomes possible to remember that the last two difficult years have not erased the previous 87 good ones!!

[jonnycooper]

A good age that bish 89!

[Worthy4England]

I think you're getting bogged down with the word embarrassment. How about the word disgrace instead? Or complete and utter shambles?

nahh... the good memories are still easily outweighing the bad...

It's a bit like when I go to visit families of an elderly relative who has just died.. the memories of the last 2yrs of hospital and illness and fading health and emergencies and problems and if-onlies are often the only thing they can remember, and the only thing they need to talk about... but after a while, it becomes possible to remember that the last two difficult years have not erased the previous 87 good ones!!

If you look at the teams who were in the Prem in 2003/4 - the season ED took the helm...

Birmingham - Owner jailed for 6 years in 2014, Parent Company (not the football club) in receivership - mainly to try and get rid of owner...
Blackburn - Had all the Venky's stuff to contend with, 4? Managers in a season? Was wondering what to do about £56m debt a couple of years back...now £79m and rising...
Charlton Athletic - Been through the mill - 3 years in the Prem, 6 in the Chumps, 3 in League 1. On their third manager this season. Owner is professional "football club collector" - he had 5 in different leagues last year (I think). Fans protesting
Fulham - Al Fayed turned £187m of loans into equity in 2013 (sound a bit familiar) - quite possible they've had more cash off Al Fayed than we had off ED..
Leeds - anyone stopped laughing yet? Sacked the manager (Oh no we haven't). If you're looking for big falls from grace...this one would be in the mix - Champions League to League 1 in short order
Leicester - slightly different, they went into Admin a couple of years before the 2003/4 season...
Middlesboro - bought Afonso Alves for £13.6m - £93m in debt in 2007, with £70m of it wiped by Steve Gibson...Accounts on a murky scale, way better than ours. Net Debt circa £80m (guess) was £76.4 in 2014...

That's without covering Portsmouth (in administration twice since 2003), Southampton (in administration once since 2003), Wolves who are just an embarrassment whatever their debt position might be... And always not forgetting the bigger teams getting bankrolled to the tune of "whatever"...

Trying to point at Bolton (not in Adminstration) as being the smelliest turd in the dung heap of footballing business models, is pointless when you weigh it against the footballing business model in general.

[Gary the Enfield]

I think you're getting bogged down with the word embarrassment. How about the word disgrace instead? Or complete and utter shambles?

nahh... the good memories are still easily outweighing the bad...

It's a bit like when I go to visit families of an elderly relative who has just died.. the memories of the last 2yrs of hospital and illness and fading health and emergencies and problems and if-onlies are often the only thing they can remember, and the only thing they need to talk about... but after a while, it becomes possible to remember that the last two difficult years have not erased the previous 87 good ones!!

If you look at the teams who were in the Prem in 2003/4 - the season ED took the helm...

Birmingham - Owner jailed for 6 years in 2014, Parent Company (not the football club) in receivership - mainly to try and get rid of owner...
Blackburn - Had all the Venky's stuff to contend with, 4? Managers in a season? Was wondering what to do about £56m debt a couple of years back...now £79m and rising...
Charlton Athletic - Been through the mill - 3 years in the Prem, 6 in the Chumps, 3 in League 1. On their third manager this season. Owner is professional "football club collector" - he had 5 in different leagues last year (I think). Fans protesting
Fulham - Al Fayed turned £187m of loans into equity in 2013 (sound a bit familiar) - quite possible they've had more cash off Al Fayed than we had off ED..
Leeds - anyone stopped laughing yet? Sacked the manager (Oh no we haven't). If you're looking for big falls from grace...this one would be in the mix - Champions League to League 1 in short order
Leicester - slightly different, they went into Admin a couple of years before the 2003/4 season...
Middlesboro - bought Afonso Alves for £13.6m - £93m in debt in 2007, with £70m of it wiped by Steve Gibson...Accounts on a murky scale, way better than ours. Net Debt circa £80m (guess) was £76.4 in 2014...

That's without covering Portsmouth (in administration twice since 2003), Southampton (in administration once since 2003), Wolves who are just an embarrassment whatever their debt position might be... And always not forgetting the bigger teams getting bankrolled to the tune of "whatever"...

Trying to point at Bolton (not in Adminstration) as being the smelliest turd in the dung heap of footballing business models, is pointless when you weigh it against the footballing business model in general.

Dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner............................STATMAN!

[Worthy4England]

I think you're getting bogged down with the word embarrassment. How about the word disgrace instead? Or complete and utter shambles?

nahh... the good memories are still easily outweighing the bad...

It's a bit like when I go to visit families of an elderly relative who has just died.. the memories of the last 2yrs of hospital and illness and fading health and emergencies and problems and if-onlies are often the only thing they can remember, and the only thing they need to talk about... but after a while, it becomes possible to remember that the last two difficult years have not erased the previous 87 good ones!!

If you look at the teams who were in the Prem in 2003/4 - the season ED took the helm...

Birmingham - Owner jailed for 6 years in 2014, Parent Company (not the football club) in receivership - mainly to try and get rid of owner...
Blackburn - Had all the Venky's stuff to contend with, 4? Managers in a season? Was wondering what to do about £56m debt a couple of years back...now £79m and rising...
Charlton Athletic - Been through the mill - 3 years in the Prem, 6 in the Chumps, 3 in League 1. On their third manager this season. Owner is professional "football club collector" - he had 5 in different leagues last year (I think). Fans protesting
Fulham - Al Fayed turned £187m of loans into equity in 2013 (sound a bit familiar) - quite possible they've had more cash off Al Fayed than we had off ED..
Leeds - anyone stopped laughing yet? Sacked the manager (Oh no we haven't). If you're looking for big falls from grace...this one would be in the mix - Champions League to League 1 in short order
Leicester - slightly different, they went into Admin a couple of years before the 2003/4 season...
Middlesboro - bought Afonso Alves for £13.6m - £93m in debt in 2007, with £70m of it wiped by Steve Gibson...Accounts on a murky scale, way better than ours. Net Debt circa £80m (guess) was £76.4 in 2014...

That's without covering Portsmouth (in administration twice since 2003), Southampton (in administration once since 2003), Wolves who are just an embarrassment whatever their debt position might be... And always not forgetting the bigger teams getting bankrolled to the tune of "whatever"...

Trying to point at Bolton (not in Adminstration) as being the smelliest turd in the dung heap of footballing business models, is pointless when you weigh it against the footballing business model in general.

Dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner
Dinner, dinner, dinner, dinner............................STATMAN!

Look, that's just 8 dinners, in two groups of 4. Not funny.

[BWFC_Insane]

Worthy's list is fair enough in principle. However Lennon interviewed in the guardian today suggests Eddie pulled financial support whilst he was manager. So let's say a year's notice. Given we are a football club what did he think would happen?

The current league positions of those sides should also be noted.

We've been through what many other clubs have suffered. I think the difference is those clubs didn't have a fan owner who it was constantly said wouldn't let the club get in the shit and would ensure that debt wasn't a problem. I don't really mind if Eddie wasn't almost knighted by some fans. The man took over the club and funded it through some great times. He put a lot of money in. Then he stopped and made no attempt to stop the club going out of business, it's staff not being paid or it facing liquidation. And when people came along to save the club he stalled, changed demands and took the club to the wall.

If City's owners pull out tomorrow they will be in a mess. Bet nobody on here or elsewhere would regard that as anything other than the rich overlords getting bored and dumping their play thing. What Eddie has done is no different. Except for the fact he wants everyone to think it is.

[Worthy4England]

Worthy's list is fair enough in principle. However Lennon interviewed in the guardian today suggests Eddie pulled financial support whilst he was manager. So let's say a year's notice. Given we are a football club what did he think would happen?

The current league positions of those sides should also be noted.

We've been through what many other clubs have suffered. I think the difference is those clubs didn't have a fan owner who it was constantly said wouldn't let the club get in the shit and would ensure that debt wasn't a problem. I don't really mind if Eddie wasn't almost knighted by some fans. The man took over the club and funded it through some great times. He put a lot of money in. Then he stopped and made no attempt to stop the club going out of business, it's staff not being paid or it facing liquidation. And when people came along to save the club he stalled, changed demands and took the club to the wall.

If City's owners pull out tomorrow they will be in a mess. Bet nobody on here or elsewhere would regard that as anything other than the rich overlords getting bored and dumping their play thing. What Eddie has done is no different. Except for the fact he wants everyone to think it is.

How much could he put in, under FFP?

PG certainly knew by Oct 2014 that ED was stopping putting money in - he said so in the interview with Iles. I'd be very surprised if that was the first he'd heard about it.

[BWFC_Insane]

Worthy's list is fair enough in principle. However Lennon interviewed in the guardian today suggests Eddie pulled financial support whilst he was manager. So let's say a year's notice. Given we are a football club what did he think would happen?

The current league positions of those sides should also be noted.

We've been through what many other clubs have suffered. I think the difference is those clubs didn't have a fan owner who it was constantly said wouldn't let the club get in the shit and would ensure that debt wasn't a problem. I don't really mind if Eddie wasn't almost knighted by some fans. The man took over the club and funded it through some great times. He put a lot of money in. Then he stopped and made no attempt to stop the club going out of business, it's staff not being paid or it facing liquidation. And when people came along to save the club he stalled, changed demands and took the club to the wall.

If City's owners pull out tomorrow they will be in a mess. Bet nobody on here or elsewhere would regard that as anything other than the rich overlords getting bored and dumping their play thing. What Eddie has done is no different. Except for the fact he wants everyone to think it is.

How much could he put in, under FFP?

PG certainly knew by Oct 2014 that ED was stopping putting money in - he said so in the interview with Iles. I'd be very surprised if that was the first he'd heard about it.

What has FFP got to do with not covering costs of paying staff?

It might preclude increasing the wage Bill. But certainly did not stop Eddie from
paying staff or the tax Man and didn't stop him from keeping the club afloat. Not did it mean he had to delay negotiations and change the ballpark constantly.

He's within his rights to do al this I'm just not sure that he can do that and retain his ultimate superfan faultless benefactor status.

[Worthy4England]

FFP limits the amount that any fecker can put in, without penalties. That's the whole fcking point of it. To try and get Clubs to run within their revenue streams...So it has everything to do with covering costs for anything (pretty much). There are a couple of exclusions, but none of them are to do with paying folks.

[BWFC_Insane]

FFP limits the amount that any fecker can put in, without penalties. That's the whole fcking point of it. To try and get Clubs to run within their revenue streams...So it has everything to do with covering costs for anything (pretty much). There are a couple of exclusions, but none of them are to do with paying folks.

We were FFP compliant. So whilst he couldn't increase the wage bill there was nothing absolutely nothing to stop him maintaining current expenditure.

[Worthy4England]

FFP limits the amount that any fecker can put in, without penalties. That's the whole fcking point of it. To try and get Clubs to run within their revenue streams...So it has everything to do with covering costs for anything (pretty much). There are a couple of exclusions, but none of them are to do with paying folks.

We were FFP compliant. So whilst he couldn't increase the wage bill there was nothing absolutely nothing to stop him maintaining current expenditure.

You don't get this, do you?

It's not a cap on expenditure. It's a cap on maximum permitted losses - so the difference between Income and Outgoings. If your Revenue drops by a shit load, your costs need to track downwards against it. Being compliant for the 2014/2015 season, doesn't mean to say you'll be compliant for the 2015/16 season if your revenue is falling (which ours has been under parachute payments)

It also kicked in over time - so when you're twattering on about the club never knew the funding was going to be stopped by ED, that's true, but they did know about FFP from 2012. There were no sanctions (iirc) for a couple of transitional years, but there were by the 2014/15 season.

[BWFC_Insane]

FFP limits the amount that any fecker can put in, without penalties. That's the whole fcking point of it. To try and get Clubs to run within their revenue streams...So it has everything to do with covering costs for anything (pretty much). There are a couple of exclusions, but none of them are to do with paying folks.

We were FFP compliant. So whilst he couldn't increase the wage bill there was nothing absolutely nothing to stop him maintaining current expenditure.

You don't get this, do you?

It's not a cap on expenditure. It's a cap on maximum permitted losses - so the difference between Income and Outgoings. If your Revenue drops by a shit load, your costs need to track downwards against it. Being compliant for the 2014/2015 season, doesn't mean to say you'll be compliant for the 2015/16 season if your revenue is falling (which ours has been under parachute payments)

It also kicked in over time - so when you're twattering on about the club never knew the funding was going to be stopped by ED, that's true, but they did know about FFP from 2012. There were no sanctions (iirc) for a couple of transitional years, but there were by the 2014/15 season.

You're really trying to tell me that the court appearances, winding up petition and non payment of staff were because of FFP? Really?

[Worthy4England]

FFP limits the amount that any fecker can put in, without penalties. That's the whole fcking point of it. To try and get Clubs to run within their revenue streams...So it has everything to do with covering costs for anything (pretty much). There are a couple of exclusions, but none of them are to do with paying folks.

We were FFP compliant. So whilst he couldn't increase the wage bill there was nothing absolutely nothing to stop him maintaining current expenditure.

You don't get this, do you?

It's not a cap on expenditure. It's a cap on maximum permitted losses - so the difference between Income and Outgoings. If your Revenue drops by a shit load, your costs need to track downwards against it. Being compliant for the 2014/2015 season, doesn't mean to say you'll be compliant for the 2015/16 season if your revenue is falling (which ours has been under parachute payments)

It also kicked in over time - so when you're twattering on about the club never knew the funding was going to be stopped by ED, that's true, but they did know about FFP from 2012. There were no sanctions (iirc) for a couple of transitional years, but there were by the 2014/15 season.

You're really trying to tell me that the court appearances, winding up petition and non payment of staff were because of FFP? Really?

No, I'm saying ED can't just put in what he wants to because of FFP. I dunno whether he has put in the maximum amount or not.

You're really trying to tell me this came as a surprise to the Board when it was announced in 2012? Really?