Us Vs The Red Scousers

[seanworth]

But a more fluid 4-2-3-1 formation away from home has to be tried

This, a thousand times this.

Our defenders are average but given the pressure they get put under coz we're mobbed in midfield it's amazing we don't concede more.

This. Coyle is determined to stick to a 4-4-2. When playing teams especially of Liverpool's quality away from home we need to go 4-5-1 or similar varient. It didn't help with Muamba having a stinker, but bringing in M. Davies only weakened us further defensively, well maybe not the way Muamba was playing but you get my drift.

Having to sit in a bar with Liverpool supporters was tough to take yesterday, but it could have been worse, I could of had to endure it at Anfield. Anyway that games over so who's up next. Oh dear.

[Ianmooreslovechild]

Having glanced thru the discussion here I'm pretty much repeating points from others which suggests that what is required is bleeding obvious and if Coyle continues to ignore the bleeding obvious perhaps he's not as great a manager as he appears.Last year we were shit away from home playing an open 442 and got murdered by the money sides to a degree where we didnt even turn up. Yesterday from the very start we looked beaten.Acres of space for Liverpool to play in and no belief when we occasionally nicked the ball.3-1 was incredibly flattering.We will continue to be crap away as long as we continue to play an open game. Coyle needs to pick his battles.Yesterday a packed defensive midfield with one upfront would have been negative but would have given us a chance.Petrov for his failings looked our only threat yesterday so let him play a free role and put a bank of fighters in the midfield.At least do something to make it solid.Liverpools midfield had the freedom of the park yesterday and we barely had a touch.We dont have the same talent as these bigger teams so we cant play them at their own game(Sammy Lee style).
As for individual personel,it's harsh to criticise our defense on yesterdays performance as they had no one to mark and 5 players running freely around the space infront of them.Any defense would have struggled with those tactics.Yes Knight fell asleep for the corner,he's an amiable dope without the drive to be a top end player.That's why he's with us at the tail end of his career!He is affordable mediocrity.
And of course we lack pace up front which creates a further limit and is why the ball kept coming back at us BUT it's also the reason why we should have been playing 5 battlers tight infront of the back 4 with Petrov or Tuncay free to wander and Superkev looking to steal the odd deadball opportunity.
I love what Coyle is doing for the club,great attitude and good signings but we do need to pick our battles and be a little more flible in using what we have otherwise we may aswell not bother turning out against the top 6 clubs and will again have the worst away record in the league.

[Choppers]

Shocked to see Robinson getting stick. In the last two games, his tackling and desire are the reason we didn't concede a whole lot more goals.

Oh and Muamba wasn't great, but at the time he was pulled off the pitch, I didn't think he was doing any worse than Reo-Coker, except that Nigel was closer to a booking than Fabrice.

Honestly, picking one bad performance out of the team yesterday would be unfair. Instead, I'm choosing to say that Robinson, Eages, Petrov (just) and Mark Davies looked okay.

I'd be very tempted to play Eagles behind the front man too.

[Ianmooreslovechild]

Shocked to see Robinson getting stick. In the last two games, his tackling and desire are the reason we didn't concede a whole lot more goals.

Oh and Muamba was great, but at the time he was pulled off the pitch, I didn't think he was doing any worse than Reo-Coker, except that Nigel was closer to a booking than Fabrice.

Certainly Robbo at least has balls and will always fight regardless of how dire the team is performing. Got to love him for that

[Choppers]

I think we all know you can't go 4-4-2 away from home against a team with players like Suarez in it. Imo, Davies needs dropping for a game. Captain or not, you can't play that way and walk back into the team next match. I think that was the worst game I've ever seen him have, ever.

I'd have been tempted to go 4-5-1

Steinsson, Cahill, Knight, Robinson

Tuncay, M Davies, Reo-Coker, Petrov

Eagles

Klasnic

[Ianmooreslovechild]

I think we all know you can't go 4-4-2 away from home against a team with players like Suarez in it. Imo, Davies needs dropping for a game. Captain or not, you can't play that way and walk back into the team next match. I think that was the worst game I've ever seen him have, ever.

I'd have been tempted to go 4-5-1

Steinsson, Cahill, Knight, Robinson

Tuncay, M Davies, Reo-Coker, Petrov

Eagles

Klasnic

Still would have been ripped apart!
Put Petrov where you have Eagles and play Pratley and Moowhere you have M Davis and Petrov. Pratley can break and support but all 4 midfielders need to work and fight.Tuncay seems capable of that
Oh and Wheater not Knight please.
When is Holden and Rickets back,we really miss them!

[Choppers]

Being realistic though, Coyle isn't dropping Knight.

[Norpig]

I cannot believe the negativity so we had a bad day at the office!

The reason we did not compete was because we went out with a negative team with zero creativity,Knight was not the reason the following was;

1. We should have played Mark Davis from the beginning he is currently the only midfielder available who can hold onto the ball and not panic in possession.

2. Playing Muamba and NRC from the start just invited Liverpool to attack us once we got the ball these two midfielders showed how inadequate they are at passing the ball beyond 10 yards.

3. Eagles may as well have been playing right back as Stiensen continually went missing wither wandering into the middle of the park (the senario also happend against Man City but they did not have a marauding winger).

4. Klasnic and Davies are too similar but with the lack of an alternative we have no option but to play both, one of these forwards is supposed to drop back to help the midfield. This did not happen yesterday!

5. Our inability to pass the ball, constantly giving it away, doing this against a team of Liverpools quality is always going to cause problems for our defence.

6. Jussi's inability to distribute the ball with any speed forcing the usual punt up to Davies, which just ends up with the ball coming straight back.

7. Robinson's inability to get back into position after going forward due to the lack of speed this drags Knight out of position to cover as Petrov will not get back and cover. This leaves huge gaps in the middle of the park.

IMHO I think the way forward against the top 6 teams is to have a more attacking style like we did with success against Man Utd last season. Yes we may still lose but against these teams I think we have to give them something to think about rather than standing there letting us run rings around us.

I would play the following team

Jussi (Bogdan not yet ready)

Wheater Boyata Knight Robinson

Eagles NRC M Davis Petrov

Tuncay
Klasnic

The defence is going to change as Cahill will be sold this week Wheater cannot be any worse than Stiensen we have no alternative to Robinson. Davies is a spent for maybe a good sub if we need a presence later in the game we have to move away from the Davies years. I would be tempted to play Bogdan not because he is better than Jussi but to let Jussi know he is not auto pick

[Ianmooreslovechild]

I cannot believe the negativity so we had a bad day at the office!

The reason we did not compete was because we went out with a negative team with zero creativity,Knight was not the reason the following was;

1. We should have played Mark Davis from the beginning he is currently the only midfielder available who can hold onto the ball and not panic in possession.

2. Playing Muamba and NRC from the start just invited Liverpool to attack us once we got the ball these two midfielders showed how inadequate they are at passing the ball beyond 10 yards.

3. Eagles may as well have been playing right back as Stiensen continually went missing wither wandering into the middle of the park (the senario also happend against Man City but they did not have a marauding winger).

4. Klasnic and Davies are too similar but with the lack of an alternative we have no option but to play both, one of these forwards is supposed to drop back to help the midfield. This did not happen yesterday!

5. Our inability to pass the ball, constantly giving it away, doing this against a team of Liverpools quality is always going to cause problems for our defence.

6. Jussi's inability to distribute the ball with any speed forcing the usual punt up to Davies, which just ends up with the ball coming straight back.

7. Robinson's inability to get back into position after going forward due to the lack of speed this drags Knight out of position to cover as Petrov will not get back and cover. This leaves huge gaps in the middle of the park.

IMHO I think the way forward against the top 6 teams is to have a more attacking style like we did with success against Man Utd last season. Yes we may still lose but against these teams I think we have to give them something to think about rather than standing there letting us run rings around us.

I would play the following team

Jussi (Bogdan not yet ready)

Wheater Boyata Knight Robinson

Eagles NRC M Davis Petrov

Tuncay
Klasnic

The defence is going to change as Cahill will be sold this week Wheater cannot be any worse than Stiensen we have no alternative to Robinson. Davies is a spent for maybe a good sub if we need a presence later in the game we have to move away from the Davies years. I would be tempted to play Bogdan not because he is better than Jussi but to let Jussi know he is not auto pick

With that midfield I assume we're relying on the opposition to give us the ball from time to time as there's feck all chance of Eagles,M Davis and Petrov winning a tackle!

[Beefheart]

Wheater wasn't good at RB when he played there against Blackburn away. I'd rather have hiim in the centre and drop Knight. Maybe alongside Boyata with Onouha at RB if we do manage to get him as a cahill replacement. Or when Mears is back maybe Boyata and Onouha in the centre, that would be a very quick backline which would help with the high line we play.

[Ianmooreslovechild]

Wheater wasn't good at RB when he played there against Blackburn away. I'd rather have hiim in the centre and drop Knight. Maybe alongside Boyata with Onouha at RB if we do manage to get him as a cahill replacement. Or when Mears is back maybe Boyata and Onouha in the centre, that would be a very quick backline which would help with the high line we play.

Sounds good to me. What did Wheater do wrong when he played for that spell.Still can't work out why Knight walked straight back into the team

[Armchair Wanderer]

Hopefully we can forget all about this performance after the International break.

I don't know what system QPR played against us but City seemed to match our 4-4-2 and we played well.

The combination of being away from home, playing a decent side and for that side to play 4-5-1 all contributed... and possibly playing Muamba when his head wasn't right.

No matter how much you love a certain system you need to look at what the other team is doing and try to get something out of the game, even if it's just a point away from home. I'm sure no-one's suggesting we adopt a 4-5-1 for every game. And maybe we don't need to play that way at all once Holden's back. But in the meantime...

[Beefheart]

Wheater wasn't good at RB when he played there against Blackburn away. I'd rather have hiim in the centre and drop Knight. Maybe alongside Boyata with Onouha at RB if we do manage to get him as a cahill replacement. Or when Mears is back maybe Boyata and Onouha in the centre, that would be a very quick backline which would help with the high line we play.

Sounds good to me. What did Wheater do wrong when he played for that spell.Still can't work out why Knight walked straight back into the team

Well pre semi-final Wheater was on 9 yellows so rested against West Ham. Knight had a good game against them, which unfortunately gave the impression that he could give a good performance against a proper team.

[hisroyalgingerness]

I cannot believe the negativity so we had a bad day at the office!

I don't quite see the difference between the other posts and yours to be honest? Yes we had a bad day, but why? In answer to your points:

1 - so why didn't we? We can all see that we're better in possession, and if Fab isn't even helping us defensively...
2 - ditto. But they're not the only limited midfield in the country. We have wingers running into space that these two can't unpick, when if we set up to just let these two play the balls sideways, we'd be ok
3 - abso-fecking-lutely
4 - clearly we have options. Different formations and 2 other strikers on the bench suggests there are options
5 - dropped penny
6 - ditto
7 - ditto

We were at our best last season when hunting in packs at high tempo and putting teams under pressure. Yesterday we chased shadows and Liverpool's defensive job was so easy against our limited attack

The only positive I took from yesterday was that SKD was actually subbed with a significant amount of time left

[Hoboh]

Without meaning to offend why the hell do we play Klasnic up front on his todd? A Strurridge type player (or Ngog maybe) is whats called fo,r Klasnic would be meat and drink for central defenders (even feckin' Knight) to mark out of a game. Davies it seems is also moving along that path!
50% of our defence is crap we need a right back and (while Cahill is still with us another central defender) Knight is getting more and more mistake prone. 4-5-1 will get us the best results but how the hell do we fit chungy/Petrov/tunkers/mavis and Pratters into that midfield without leaving us still a bit light defence wise?

[Beefheart]

Without meaning to offend why the hell do we play Klasnic up front on his todd? A Strurridge type player (or Ngog maybe) is whats called fo,r Klasnic would be meat and drink for central defenders (even feckin' Knight) to mark out of a game. Davies it seems is also moving along that path!
50% of our defence is crap we need a right back and (while Cahill is still with us another central defender) Knight is getting more and more mistake prone. 4-5-1 will get us the best results but how the hell do we fit chungy/Petrov/tunkers/mavis and Pratters into that midfield without leaving us still a bit light defence wise?

In a 4-2-3-1 with NRC, and when fit, Holden in midfield.

[Armchair Wanderer]

Without meaning to offend why the hell do we play Klasnic up front on his todd? A Strurridge type player (or Ngog maybe) is whats called fo,r Klasnic would be meat and drink for central defenders (even feckin' Knight) to mark out of a game. Davies it seems is also moving along that path!
50% of our defence is crap we need a right back and (while Cahill is still with us another central defender) Knight is getting more and more mistake prone. 4-5-1 will get us the best results but how the hell do we fit chungy/Petrov/tunkers/mavis and Pratters into that midfield without leaving us still a bit light defence wise?

In a 4-2-3-1 with NRC, and when fit, Holden in midfield.

4-2-3-1 = 4-5-1

What you're saying is 2 defensive mids in front of the defence: NRC and Muamba.

The creative one in the middle would be either a Holden/Mavies/Tuncay, unless you want to try one of them on the left or right, or Tuncay up front.

[Beefheart]

Without meaning to offend why the hell do we play Klasnic up front on his todd? A Strurridge type player (or Ngog maybe) is whats called fo,r Klasnic would be meat and drink for central defenders (even feckin' Knight) to mark out of a game. Davies it seems is also moving along that path!
50% of our defence is crap we need a right back and (while Cahill is still with us another central defender) Knight is getting more and more mistake prone. 4-5-1 will get us the best results but how the hell do we fit chungy/Petrov/tunkers/mavis and Pratters into that midfield without leaving us still a bit light defence wise?

In a 4-2-3-1 with NRC, and when fit, Holden in midfield.

4-2-3-1 = 4-5-1

What you're saying is 2 defensive mids in front of the defence: NRC and Muamba.

The creative one in the middle would be either a Holden/Mavies/Tuncay, unless you want to try one of them on the left or right, or Tuncay up front.

There's lots of options In the 3 you could have: Petrov/Tuncay/Eagles on the left, Tuncay/Eagles/Mavies/Pratley in the middle Eagles/Tuncay/Lee when fit on the right. Then upfront SKD/Klasnic/Tuncay/Ngog if we sign him.

[Armchair Wanderer]

Totally, 4-2-3-1 just looks misleading to me as the option we have is either 3 men in the middle of the park (4-5-1), or 2 (4-4-2).

[TANGODANCER]

It's been mentioned, but we have to be a lot more "horses for courses" in team and formation.
Your total KD fan, it doesn't take Einstein to see why he's being made to look inefective. Defenders from Tranmere to Timbuctoo know Jussi will look for him and welly the ball in his dierection, so they just do the sandwich; one in front of him, one behind and negate the threat. Let's have a few shorter goal kicks to give the midfield front man or wingers a chance to get into it, or even a bit of sensible distribution from Jussi that doesn't just make it all so predictable. What happened to early ball delivery from the wings, a la David Beckham, that gives a striker a chance to run in on? Pretty obvious that what maybe worked against QPR won't do it against top-level opposition. Might not even work against QPR next time if they do their homework.

Most disturbing thing for me yesterday was the apparent lack of energy from all the Whites. Too slow by a mile reacting to everything and too much ball-watching. We're better than that. Liverpool played almost old Bolton style in their hassling and brushing us off the ball, and we looked like a bad Arsenal trying to tip tap. Maybe time to stop the automatic team selection and maybe wake a few up OC.