Question about a fan takeover

[thebish]

FACT!!

[Worthy4England]

Generally, the unit next to ours write, saying stuff like "can you keep your fcking visitors out of our parking spaces!"....

Wow - it's spooky

[Enoch]

The unit next to mine writes up notes on the criminally insane. My unit only deals with the deranged.

[CrazyHorse]

So it's Donkey Deano, a bunch of ambulance chasers and a world exclusive broken by Batman.
It's so bizarre and random it must be true.

[DJBlu]

£178 million written off.

I think his family will be having words about that one.

[Bruce Rioja]

Generally, the unit next to ours write, saying stuff like "can you keep your fcking visitors out of our parking spaces!"....

Wow - it's spooky

[TANGODANCER]

£178 million written off.

I think his family will be having words about that one.

Well, with only 200 mil or so left between them and starvtion, who can blame them?

[Prufrock]

I imagine they'll have to rename the Supporters Association, "Reebok Roar" the "Macron Moan".
*Straightens tie*

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Wasn't Ric Kay the name of Frank Butcher's son in EastEnders?

[bobo the clown]

£178 million written off.

I think his family will be having words about that one.

... JSW will set them straight. He's actually made a profit on us. Everyone knows this.

Sheesh. Do you read nothing ??

[midlands exile]

£178 million written off.

I think his family will be having words about that one.

... JSW will set them straight. He's actually made a profit on us. Everyone knows this.

Sheesh. Do you read nothing ??

Making a profit may indeed be a bit of a stretch, but I don't expect he would be losing anywhere near that £178m.

Some fag packet sums below on a hypothetical business that has been losing money year on year, paying an assumed 5% interest on the debt, to the owner's other business based overseas in a country with low/zero tax rates. Compound interest has inflated the final debt figure, which actually contains a sizeable amount of money that has just shifted to the overseas country. Taking that "profit" away from the actual losses means the net loss is about half of the stated debt.

Year Debt Interest@5% Actual Loss
2003 £20.00 £1.00 £5.00
2004 £26.00 £1.30 £5.00
2005 £32.30 £1.62 £5.00
2006 £38.92 £1.95 £10.00
2007 £50.86 £2.54 £10.00
2008 £63.40 £3.17 £10.00
2009 £76.57 £3.83 £10.00
2010 £90.40 £4.52 £10.00
2011 £104.92 £5.25 £10.00
2012 £120.17 £6.01 £10.00
2013 £136.18 £6.81 £10.00
2014 £152.99 £7.65 £10.00
2015 £170.64 £8.53 £10.00

Total Interest £54.17
Total Actual Loss £135.00 (inc original £20 debt)
Overall £80.83 net loss

So if the owner got £30 for the business, on the assumption that the stated debt was wiped out, then the owner would be about £50 down. Not ideal, but nowhere near what it might first look like.

Note - if the interest rate was higher at any point during the period (say, 10% for instance, totally random figure...), then the net loss would be reduced even further. A slight increase in the interest rate would again have a compound effect as this would both increase profit from loans whilst also reducing actual losses (the figures for the latter having being assumed, to fit in with the resulting 2015 debt figure).

[midlands exile]

Now if you take into account potential tax savings...:

Year Debt Interest@5% Actual_Loss Annual_Loss Corp_Tax_Saving@20% of Annual Losses
2003 £20.00 £1.00 £5.00 £6.00 £1.20
2004 £26.00 £1.30 £5.00 £6.30 £1.26
2005 £32.30 £1.62 £5.00 £6.62 £1.32
2006 £38.92 £1.95 £10.00 £11.95 £2.39
2007 £50.86 £2.54 £10.00 £12.54 £2.51
2008 £63.40 £3.17 £10.00 £13.17 £2.63
2009 £76.57 £3.83 £10.00 £13.83 £2.77
2010 £90.40 £4.52 £10.00 £14.52 £2.90
2011 £104.92 £5.25 £10.00 £15.25 £3.05
2012 £120.17 £6.01 £10.00 £16.01 £3.20
2013 £136.18 £6.81 £10.00 £16.81 £3.36
2014 £152.99 £7.65 £10.00 £17.65 £3.53
2015 £170.64 £8.53 £10.00 £18.53 £3.71

Total Interest £54.17
Total Actual Loss £135.00 (inc original £20 debt)
Total Corp Tax Saving (if owner had a group of businesses that could offset the annual losses against) £33.83
Inheritance Tax Saving (@36% of interest in overseas country, reduced rate as the owner is charitable) £19.50

Overall £27.50 net loss

Again, this is all assuming 5% interest on loans. In this instance a £30 asking price would wipe out the losses with a few quid spare for a party. This is in no way meant to reflect any actual real-life business, but is merely an example of how things might not always look as they seem.

Massive apologies for the formatting screwing up, pasting in from Excel didn't work too well.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Thanks for going to the effort of working that out, mate.

For spreadsheets it's often easiest* to take a screengrab, upload it to Photobucket or Flickr or some other public image-hosting website, then use their suggested "for messageboards" paste-in.

*Which still doesn't sound easy but is better than doing all that work for nothing

[Spartan2]

Now if you take into account potential tax savings...:

Year Debt Interest@5% Actual_Loss Annual_Loss Corp_Tax_Saving@20% of Annual Losses
2003 £20.00 £1.00 £5.00 £6.00 £1.20
2004 £26.00 £1.30 £5.00 £6.30 £1.26
2005 £32.30 £1.62 £5.00 £6.62 £1.32
2006 £38.92 £1.95 £10.00 £11.95 £2.39
2007 £50.86 £2.54 £10.00 £12.54 £2.51
2008 £63.40 £3.17 £10.00 £13.17 £2.63
2009 £76.57 £3.83 £10.00 £13.83 £2.77
2010 £90.40 £4.52 £10.00 £14.52 £2.90
2011 £104.92 £5.25 £10.00 £15.25 £3.05
2012 £120.17 £6.01 £10.00 £16.01 £3.20
2013 £136.18 £6.81 £10.00 £16.81 £3.36
2014 £152.99 £7.65 £10.00 £17.65 £3.53
2015 £170.64 £8.53 £10.00 £18.53 £3.71

Total Interest £54.17
Total Actual Loss £135.00 (inc original £20 debt)
Total Corp Tax Saving (if owner had a group of businesses that could offset the annual losses against) £33.83
Inheritance Tax Saving (@36% of interest in overseas country, reduced rate as the owner is charitable) £19.50

Overall £27.50 net loss

Again, this is all assuming 5% interest on loans. In this instance a £30 asking price would wipe out the losses with a few quid spare for a party. This is in no way meant to reflect any actual real-life business, but is merely an example of how things might not always look as they seem.

Massive apologies for the formatting screwing up, pasting in from Excel didn't work too well.

You wouldn't happen to have Jimmy Carr's number lying around anywhere would you?

[Andy Waller]

Now if you take into account potential tax savings...:

Year Debt Interest@5% Actual_Loss Annual_Loss Corp_Tax_Saving@20% of Annual Losses
2003 £20.00 £1.00 £5.00 £6.00 £1.20
2004 £26.00 £1.30 £5.00 £6.30 £1.26
2005 £32.30 £1.62 £5.00 £6.62 £1.32
2006 £38.92 £1.95 £10.00 £11.95 £2.39
2007 £50.86 £2.54 £10.00 £12.54 £2.51
2008 £63.40 £3.17 £10.00 £13.17 £2.63
2009 £76.57 £3.83 £10.00 £13.83 £2.77
2010 £90.40 £4.52 £10.00 £14.52 £2.90
2011 £104.92 £5.25 £10.00 £15.25 £3.05
2012 £120.17 £6.01 £10.00 £16.01 £3.20
2013 £136.18 £6.81 £10.00 £16.81 £3.36
2014 £152.99 £7.65 £10.00 £17.65 £3.53
2015 £170.64 £8.53 £10.00 £18.53 £3.71

Total Interest £54.17
Total Actual Loss £135.00 (inc original £20 debt)
Total Corp Tax Saving (if owner had a group of businesses that could offset the annual losses against) £33.83
Inheritance Tax Saving (@36% of interest in overseas country, reduced rate as the owner is charitable) £19.50

Overall £27.50 net loss

Again, this is all assuming 5% interest on loans. In this instance a £30 asking price would wipe out the losses with a few quid spare for a party. This is in no way meant to reflect any actual real-life business, but is merely an example of how things might not always look as they seem.

Massive apologies for the formatting screwing up, pasting in from Excel didn't work too well.

Isn't that still far better than having it sat there being taxed?

I would assume your "losses" (ie taxes) would be a hell of a lot more than £27.50?

[Gary the Enfield]

Anyone see the B(E)N?

Decision imminent?

[Bruce Rioja]

Anyone see the B(E)N?

Decision imminent?

The BN appears to be taking its cues from Batman and his mates at the moment, and some bloke that wrote some stuff down, sealed it in an envelope and handed it to a bloke that works in an adjoining unit (I shite thee not).

[Gary the Enfield]

Anyone see the B(E)N?

Decision imminent?

The BN appears to be taking its cues from Batman and his mates at the moment, and some bloke that wrote some stuff down, sealed it in an envelope and handed it to a bloke that works in an adjoining unit (I shite thee not).

I've been following the thread.

[Bruce Rioja]

Anyone see the B(E)N?

Decision imminent?

The BN appears to be taking its cues from Batman and his mates at the moment, and some bloke that wrote some stuff down, sealed it in an envelope and handed it to a bloke that works in an adjoining unit (I shite thee not).

I've been following the thread.

Investigative journalism? I've shit it!

[StaffsTrotter]

Its all hazy recollections, but I can't ever recall Deano coming across as a really sharp, businessman type chappy. I know he may be only a frontman, but even those have to have a bit about them don't they.

Am I doing him a dis-service or just being a bit naive about the qualifications ?