Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Peter Thompson » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:54 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:23 pm

But a manager has to maximise what he has. You seem to think a manager can impose a philosophy on players. But it doesn't work like that. Parky is picking the right system for what we've got. How we play in that system can be questioned. But either way ALF didn't fit and was only ever an impact sub here (and if truth be told most of his career).
See this confuses me - are you saying that Parkinson can't make or coach the players to play any other way than direct & are you also saying that all of the players he's recruited this summer can only play directly ?

Did Walsall (Ozzy), B/ham (Lowe, Donaldson, Grounds), Charlton (Magennis), Bristol City (O'Neil), Norwich (Wildschut), Cologne (Olkowski) play long ball / direct football with one up front ?

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:51 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:54 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:23 pm

But a manager has to maximise what he has. You seem to think a manager can impose a philosophy on players. But it doesn't work like that. Parky is picking the right system for what we've got. How we play in that system can be questioned. But either way ALF didn't fit and was only ever an impact sub here (and if truth be told most of his career).
See this confuses me - are you saying that Parkinson can't make or coach the players to play any other way than direct & are you also saying that all of the players he's recruited this summer can only play directly ?

Did Walsall (Ozzy), B/ham (Lowe, Donaldson, Grounds), Charlton (Magennis), Bristol City (O'Neil), Norwich (Wildschut), Cologne (Olkowski) play long ball / direct football with one up front ?
But Magennis was a struggling striker with Charlton. He's doing well here. Is it a case that we are using him better? O'Neil wasn't picked for Bristol City and Norwich fans did not rate or like Wildschut. Olkowski similarly was out of favour. Oztumer played for a struggling league one side.

You seem to not get that Parky has built a team on scraps. And has achieved results far beyond the resources he's been given. If someone said "here is 50M build a team". And he came back with the sort of football we see now then I think its a far more reasonable question to ask. But he's had £200K and made a huge transfer profit and been under embargo for 2 years. Under those circumstances it is a miracle we've achieved what we have. Yet you want him to do it whilst everyone strokes the ball around playing care free stuff. Take Wheater and Beevers for example. Two very decent defenders. With significant limitations that affects the team. Neither can distribute and both are slow and drag us backwards at times. Wheater especially in the latter case. But are you saying "lets weaken our back four and lose two who kick, head and throw their bodies in front of everything because we might look a bit better on the eye". Not in our position you aren't. Not when the very future of Bolton Wanderers and its existence has relied on our survival in this league.

You asked why we don't play 2 up. And the reason is, the majority of teams don't. And we're not good enough to be outnumbered in midfield.

Why did Sam only ever play 1 up front? Was it for the same reason? Yes.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Peter Thompson » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:02 pm

BWFCI with the utmost respect I take on board what you say & agree with some of it - but I don't actually think that you have answered my question (which to be honest you don't really need to !), which was in response to your post with specific points which was 'are you saying that Parkinson can't make or coach the players to play any other way than direct & are you also saying that all of the players he's recruited this summer can only play directly ?'

Also I've never said wanting him to do it whilst everyone strokes the ball around playing care free stuff - no one including me has mentioned playing carefree stuff, the fans who would like us to play some sort of football are only looking for us to string 3 or 4 passes together, play at a quicker tempo, get forward quicker, move the ball quicker, occasionally pass & move, stop playing long aimless balls in the direction of Magennis, get players closer to Magennis. It that really to much to ask players to do in regards to a slight improvement in the quality of football played....remember these are apparently better players than we had last season.

It sounds like you are saying that even with these better players, these better players are not capable of playing any other way than Parkinson's direct style of football OR have I misunderstood you ?

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:16 pm

Interesting to watch the (respectful) discussion between BWFCi & PT.

In a slightly balder fashion, I'll say this:
After the last summer deadline, our central attacking options were Madine, Le Fondre, Wilbraham and Armstrong.
After last winter deadline, that became Le Fondre, Wilbraham, Clough and Walker.
At the moment, it's just Magennis and Donaldson, with Hall as a clearly underqualified back-up (by Parky's assertion).

Donaldson is an upgrade on Wilbraham, while Magennis seems comparable to Madine, but overall that's undeniably weaker: we're a hamstring ping from bare-bones. We may not need to replace ALF like for like, but we definitely need a body in. As BWFCi and others have said, it's difficult to know who - potential arrivals and their parent clubs won't be keen on bench-warming - and there's a good chance it will be a signing who underwhelms in anticipation (like Walker) or deed (like Armstrong and Clough). But we still need the help.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:30 pm

Peter Thompson wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:02 pm
BWFCI with the utmost respect I take on board what you say & agree with some of it - but I don't actually think that you have answered my question (which to be honest you don't really need to !), which was in response to your post with specific points which was 'are you saying that Parkinson can't make or coach the players to play any other way than direct & are you also saying that all of the players he's recruited this summer can only play directly ?'

Also I've never said wanting him to do it whilst everyone strokes the ball around playing care free stuff - no one including me has mentioned playing carefree stuff, the fans who would like us to play some sort of football are only looking for us to string 3 or 4 passes together, play at a quicker tempo, get forward quicker, move the ball quicker, occasionally pass & move, stop playing long aimless balls in the direction of Magennis, get players closer to Magennis. It that really to much to ask players to do in regards to a slight improvement in the quality of football played....remember these are apparently better players than we had last season.

It sounds like you are saying that even with these better players, these better players are not capable of playing any other way than Parkinson's direct style of football OR have I misunderstood you ?
I think your "can't make or coach" is a bit "football manager/FIFA" talk. He can't say "hey David Wheater, push the team up, I know you don't like pace in behind but whatever you do don't drop off and leave our midfield with 50 yards of space to patrol". Well he can, but Wheater isn't going to add pace to his game, nor curb his natural instincts to drop and pull the midfield on top of him. Parky screams at them to push up, you only need watch, but ultimately, Wheats is our best defender and isn't being dropped. But it does leave us with a problem in terms of the midfield either being completely stretched or very deep and Magennis being isolated. The reason we struggle at times is because our midfield is too far apart and has to cover too much space, especially at home. Why is Vela;s running so key? Because to some extent it mitigates that problem.

Parky seems to favour staying in games rather than trying to dominate them. I get that can be frustrating there are times I'd love us to get Magennis in the corner and 3/4 around him and pin teams in. But doing so leaves us vulnerable and more significantly it requires the whole team to be able to play that way with that tempo and frankly I can see a few who can't. So Parky's plan is to stay in games, wait for periods of pressure and make them count. It has worked well this season, really well. The Sheffield game shows what happens when you play like that and make some errors and also IMHO when some players are struggling with 3 games in a week. It is fine margins stuff because if you are giving the other team 60% or more possession some will score a great goal or capitalise on a mistake or get a lucky goal and it becomes tricky.

I think we'll evolve as the season goes on and improve especially at home, in respect of striking a balance between this approach and trying to sometimes be more on the front foot. We've got the players to do this, to a degree, but probably not to an extent you want or think. Take Birmingham at home, he picked a very forward thinking team, clearly with an eye on getting hold of it and playing. But physically we struggled against them and they ended up dominating midfield and it caused us problems. Thankfully they had nothing much up front and we capitalised on a mistake to score. I'd rather that than being reckless and losing the game in the pursuit of dominance.

If we got a Neil Lennon type with the squad we've got it'd be an unmitigated disaster. We're built on solidity and trying to stay in games and create periods where we have chances or set pieces or can hit on the break. I agree it can be frustrating but equally I find it very frustrating if we throw points away just trying to play a brand of football that exposes our weaknesses (lack of pace at the back and a weakness in front of the centre halves or down the channels).

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by mullayo » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:32 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:16 pm
Interesting to watch the (respectful) discussion between BWFCi & PT.

In a slightly balder fashion, I'll say this:
After the last summer deadline, our central attacking options were Madine, Le Fondre, Wilbraham and Armstrong.
After last winter deadline, that became Le Fondre, Wilbraham, Clough and Walker.
At the moment, it's just Magennis and Donaldson, with Hall as a clearly underqualified back-up (by Parky's assertion).

Donaldson is an upgrade on Wilbraham, while Magennis seems comparable to Madine, but overall that's undeniably weaker: we're a hamstring ping from bare-bones. We may not need to replace ALF like for like, but we definitely need a body in. As BWFCi and others have said, it's difficult to know who - potential arrivals and their parent clubs won't be keen on bench-warming - and there's a good chance it will be a signing who underwhelms in anticipation (like Walker) or deed (like Armstrong and Clough). But we still need the help.
I agree we need a striker. Probably 2.
But if worst comes to worst how about Wildschut? He's played up front for Wigan. About 8 times IIRC.

I think we should switch Noone to the left anyway. SAmeobi is our star and Noone has been playing well (for him) and working hard.
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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by mullayo » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:38 pm

LOVS has us linked with 19-year-old Middlesbrough starlet Marcus Tavernier
Winger/ defensive midfielder?
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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by mullayo » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:26 am
"Sources at the club have dismissed suggestion that Josh Vela or Mark Beevers could leave before the deadline. Midfielder Vela’s situation has been monitored by Leeds United and reports have repeatedly linked defender Beevers to Rangers. Wanderers say they will not allow their squad to be weakened, however, and that both players will remain into the last year of their contracts."

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/16 ... g-on-loan/
See about that in January then.
Ken won't let them walk for nothing will he? He's still seething over ALF's bid for FREEdom.
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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:54 pm

mullayo wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:41 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:26 am
"Sources at the club have dismissed suggestion that Josh Vela or Mark Beevers could leave before the deadline. Midfielder Vela’s situation has been monitored by Leeds United and reports have repeatedly linked defender Beevers to Rangers. Wanderers say they will not allow their squad to be weakened, however, and that both players will remain into the last year of their contracts."

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/16 ... g-on-loan/
See about that in January then.
Ken won't let them walk for nothing will he? He's still seething over ALF's bid for FREEdom.
ALF was worth nothing. Nobody was paying for him. His wages were high enough that I'm sure they were quite keen for him to go on a free. Either a nice saving for Ken's accounts or another player coming in. Possibly both.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:28 pm

Just a quick point on Magennis being isolated up top. Pretty much the same is being said (perhaps most thoughtfully by Football 365's Daniel Storey) about Lukaku at Manchester United; his supporting cast (Alexis Sanchez, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Martial, Paul Pogba, Jesse Lingard, Juan Mata) has a transfer value knocking towards half a billion.

Now, some will (and do) say that's the fault of an overly reactive manager, and they may be right. But I think it's interesting to note the difficulties of a much more garlanded gaffer and expensive squad to come up with a system and pattern of play that might actually work. I've read a lot about United's struggles - for some reason I find it a fascinating subject - and not one of the keyboard quarterbacks has suggested playing two up top, even with Mourinho's Monday-night switch to a back three.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Jugs » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:29 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:39 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:31 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:56 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:42 pm
I didn't want ALF to go (still smarting from that one, as it's becoming clearer that we're not going to find an adequate replacement this window), don't want Vela to leave, but Beevers? Not sure about that one. He puts some great blocks in, and Hobbes - as good as he might be - has a terrible injury record.
We shall see. I really think ALF going is fairly insignificant. It’s one option less off the bench if we are desperate.
It's all about options and plan Bs.

When we struggle at times and need something different, we need those options.

No one needs reminding of the Forest game and what an impact ALF had. At the moment, you look at the bench and you only see Donaldson. It's not enough. There's no impact striker.
Changing our wide players will be our impact options this year. Possibly Erhun too.

I agree we need another, but I think a different one to ALF who IMHO was not really ideal for us even as an impact player.
The thing is, his record speaks for itself. His goals to minutes ratio is good for a team at our level. Would Tyler Walker have scored the goals ALF did last year? Would he have rescued us against Forest? No way.

Finding a striker who can actually score at this level isn't easy, and replacing ALF and his goals is going to be harder for a club like ours than people seem to appreciate.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:53 pm

Iles: "Wanderers clearly have several irons in the fire and hoping one or two will come off by Friday. Latest (unconfirmed) name in frame is Northern Ireland international Liam Boyce. Got another new one in paper tomorrow."

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Jugs » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:12 pm

I know nothing about Boyce but he's got a handy goalscoring record.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by jmjhb » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:23 pm

That would be a very decent signing.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Iles suggests we are after loads so I’d not focus on one at this stage. Our style seems to be sign the ones nobody is linking us with.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:29 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:39 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:31 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:56 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:42 pm
I didn't want ALF to go (still smarting from that one, as it's becoming clearer that we're not going to find an adequate replacement this window), don't want Vela to leave, but Beevers? Not sure about that one. He puts some great blocks in, and Hobbes - as good as he might be - has a terrible injury record.
We shall see. I really think ALF going is fairly insignificant. It’s one option less off the bench if we are desperate.
It's all about options and plan Bs.

When we struggle at times and need something different, we need those options.

No one needs reminding of the Forest game and what an impact ALF had. At the moment, you look at the bench and you only see Donaldson. It's not enough. There's no impact striker.
Changing our wide players will be our impact options this year. Possibly Erhun too.

I agree we need another, but I think a different one to ALF who IMHO was not really ideal for us even as an impact player.
The thing is, his record speaks for itself. His goals to minutes ratio is good for a team at our level. Would Tyler Walker have scored the goals ALF did last year? Would he have rescued us against Forest? No way.

Finding a striker who can actually score at this level isn't easy, and replacing ALF and his goals is going to be harder for a club like ours than people seem to appreciate.
Madine fitted into our system and scored goals. ALF was an impact sub most of the time.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by TKIZ! » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:05 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:16 pm
Interesting to watch the (respectful) discussion between BWFCi & PT.

In a slightly balder fashion, I'll say this:
After the last summer deadline, our central attacking options were Madine, Le Fondre, Wilbraham and Armstrong.
After last winter deadline, that became Le Fondre, Wilbraham, Clough and Walker.
At the moment, it's just Magennis and Donaldson, with Hall as a clearly underqualified back-up (by Parky's assertion).

Donaldson is an upgrade on Wilbraham, while Magennis seems comparable to Madine, but overall that's undeniably weaker: we're a hamstring ping from bare-bones. We may not need to replace ALF like for like, but we definitely need a body in. As BWFCi and others have said, it's difficult to know who - potential arrivals and their parent clubs won't be keen on bench-warming - and there's a good chance it will be a signing who underwhelms in anticipation (like Walker) or deed (like Armstrong and Clough). But we still need the help.
The BWFC signal has been lit by Commissioner Gordon, who should ride to the rescue? Could it be..........Super Joe Mason?
Pfffft.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by TKIZ! » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:12 pm

Boyce has 296 games under his belt and 137 goals. Most of those have come in Irish league/Scottish Premier. Decent option to have but are Burton willing to loan a player that's got 3 in 5 considering their position in the league?
Pfffft.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by Jugs » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:27 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:29 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:39 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:31 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:56 pm
Jugs wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:42 pm
I didn't want ALF to go (still smarting from that one, as it's becoming clearer that we're not going to find an adequate replacement this window), don't want Vela to leave, but Beevers? Not sure about that one. He puts some great blocks in, and Hobbes - as good as he might be - has a terrible injury record.
We shall see. I really think ALF going is fairly insignificant. It’s one option less off the bench if we are desperate.
It's all about options and plan Bs.

When we struggle at times and need something different, we need those options.

No one needs reminding of the Forest game and what an impact ALF had. At the moment, you look at the bench and you only see Donaldson. It's not enough. There's no impact striker.
Changing our wide players will be our impact options this year. Possibly Erhun too.

I agree we need another, but I think a different one to ALF who IMHO was not really ideal for us even as an impact player.
The thing is, his record speaks for itself. His goals to minutes ratio is good for a team at our level. Would Tyler Walker have scored the goals ALF did last year? Would he have rescued us against Forest? No way.

Finding a striker who can actually score at this level isn't easy, and replacing ALF and his goals is going to be harder for a club like ours than people seem to appreciate.
Madine fitted into our system and scored goals. ALF was an impact sub most of the time.
I'm not arguing that he wasn't. But atm we don't have an impact striker of his quality.

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Re: Reconstruction time again: the summer 2018 transfer thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:44 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Madine fitted into our system and scored goals. ALF was an impact sub most of the time.
Madine left for richer pastures and we were dicing with relegation. But for Alf, that's where we'd be right now. But both are history and we need a goalscorer pretty quick whatever shape and size they come in. We lost a fair few last year when we were Bolton Wanderers Nil.
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