Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by twilight » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:34 pm

Can't really comment on this match. Was working so I didn't listen to it, watch highlights, not really interested and though I've read we seemed to do well first half, it seemed to be back to the same old second half.
I hope Parky makes me eat my next words, but I feel he will make changes again and play awful tomorrow

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by boltonboris » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:40 pm

I think changes are needed. We can't play at any form of intensity 3 games every 7 days for the next month or so.

If he doesn't make changes and we suffer in the latter parts of games (even more), then he's in for it
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:43 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:40 pm
I think changes are needed. We can't play at any form of intensity 3 games every 7 days for the next month or so.

If he doesn't make changes and we suffer in the latter parts of games (even more), then he's in for it
Its a tough balance. But yes - we struggle with 3 games in a week. Wheater cannot regularly play those so that's one for a start.

Buckley and Wilson big doubts...so that's two more....

Magennis might be ok....

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:11 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:40 pm
I think changes are needed. We can't play at any form of intensity 3 games every 7 days for the next month or so.

If he doesn't make changes and we suffer in the latter parts of games (even more), then he's in for it
Damned if he does, damned if he don't. (For balance: Apart from by those who forgive him if he does, forgive him if he don't.)

Anyroadup, it's not constant thrice-weekly fixtures - not quite. After this burst (Millwall-Wednesday-Wiggin) it's a midweek off till Leeds (H), then a midweek off till a punishing five games in 15 days: Brentford (A, Sat 22), Rotherham (H, Wed 26), Stoke (H, Sat 29), Hull (A, Tue Jan 1) then the FA Cup on the Saturday. You'd expect to see some new/old faces in that run - Ireland, Dyer, Murphy, Grounds - but if we rotate for this game at Hillsborough, we could (if desired) play a fairly settled side for the next three, Saturday games.

(NB after that festive rush it's also Saturday-only for six weeks until Tue 12 Feb at Brum.)

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:29 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:44 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:02 pm
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:05 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:47 am
bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:33 am
Yes I think when we talk about Parky being or not being a poor manager in terms of creativity, the fact that a lot of the team have to do so much running that they are knackered by the time we get on the ball is one of the biggest factors, if you think he is poor at creativity that is.

So presumably yesterday was back to a hard running, defend first, hope to score primarily from a set piece type of performance, even though it sounds like we did create a few chances?

It mightn't have been a bad thing if it was; it isn't pretty but it seems to be the only set-up that gets us results.
Completely agree. Time for us to do what we do best and grind out some results.
I really, really, really don't get this!
We don't do anything best. We certainly don't grind out results: We aren't some machine that constantly spits out mince no matter what crap you feed into it, especially as the crap fed in is composed of gelatine not meat never mind gristle, and the bloke at the handle doesn't understand it needs to turn.

It's hard to go into it without re-hashing old arguments but we did grind out results in August, and for a considerable portion of the previous season. 4-2-3-1, with two holding midfielders, a runner in behind, a target man up front and two hard-working wingers either side is how we did it. Bypass the midfield by hitting it long to the target man who holds it up/knocks it down, then start thirty yards away from the opposition's goal and play it wide, where our full-backs can overlap and we can cross it into the box, or where Ameobi can beat a man and cause problems. It's a system that we haven't really played since Ameobi got injured, and it's a system that allows us solidity at the back, the ability to retain possession in the opposition's half and width high up the pitch. There's an added benefit in conceding the centre of midfield in that we can hit on the counter and make use of the space created by the opposition having pushed players forward; space that we wouldn't otherwise have been able to create.

Before now, we've played that way because we haven't had anyone remotely resembling a “footballing” midfielder. I accept that Oztumer might, in theory, allow us to play more attractively, and I accept that it's possible (maybe even probable?) that Parky doesn't know how to get the best out of him or how to properly play in a more pleasing fashion, and I also accept that another manager might use Oztumer more effectively. But the fact of the matter is that Parky is still the manager, and as you yourself have acknowledged, he doesn't appear to be going anywhere. That being the case, we might as well play to the style and the set-up that he knows best. Encouraging us to play a system we can't/don't know how to play and that hasn't yielded results seems like a fool's errand.

We've made an effort to play a more passing style of football and the statistics show that the more passes we attempt, the less chance we have of winning. Generally, the hard-working 4-2-3-1 produces fairly turgid football, and often it can be downright dreadful, but the crucial thing is that we do better when we play it. Naturally, it doesn't work every week, and there are certain teams who will beat us regardless of how we play, but when we had Madine as the focal point who we could play off and the rest of the team set out as above last season, it resulted in a comfortable mid-table points return over a significant enough sample size. From Aston Villa away, when we first played it properly, through to the end of the January transfer window, we earned twenty-four points from a run of eighteen matches. In the next eighteen, after Madine had been sold and when we made efforts to play more expansively without a target man (whether it was a 3-5-2 to accommodate two up front, or le Fondre as the one in a 4-2-3-1) we accumulated just seventeen points (and even then, in two of the four matches that we won during that period we abandoned our attempt to play on the floor, started Wilbraham and went long). If we take those averages and stretch them out over a full campaign, it's the difference between staying up and not.

The same is true the second time around. Play Doidge (who is increasingly looking like this year's le Fondre) or Donaldson up front on their own and they aren't strong enough to hold off the opposing centre-back, meaning that we can't get out of our own half and are faced with wave after wave of attack. Try and retain possession and pass it through the midfield with Oztumer and we can't find a way through. Ameobi on the right, Magennis (and only Magennis) as the target man, a hard-working winger on the left who will match Ameobi's work rate and cover the full-backs (probably Buckley) and someone to run their bollocks off in the hole (probably either Vela or Williams, though I suppose it could be Oztumer if he's willing to do the running that they would), and pray that we're lucky with injuries, particularly with both Ameobi and Magennis. That's what we should go with. There probably will be other formations and other set-ups that could work, but we're almost half-way through the season and we need to stop gambling and just do the only thing that has served us well. It's a shit state of affairs but it is what it is.
That's a very long answer, to which my short rejoinder is fair enough.

I can see where you are coming from, our differences lie in the interpretation of small pieces of a large whole. The small pieces add up such that we massively disagree on the whole, but are just in slight disagreements on the bitty pieces (I think).
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:36 pm

bristol_Wanderer3 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:34 am
^^Yes.

We had an old meat grinding machine that made strange noises and looked ugly, but it did the job of spewing out mince based on the ingredients inserted into it. The ingredients were often poor quality and often the mince produced was a lot worse than our competitors.

Then we used new suppliers who provided us with better ingredients with more gristle and meat rather than gelatine and offel, and the mince was better quality more on a par with our competitors.

Unbeknown to most of us, the management had also hired a new grinding machine that was efficient, quiet, connected to the internet so capable of playing music and videos, whilst cleaning itself and in theory producing the mince much more efficiently, thus helping save the planet.

However, it was complicated to use with a large instruction manual, and our management team underestimated the complexity, and found that our competitors had had the advantage of a much longer period to configure the machine to get the very best out of it. Thus we were no nearer to our competitors than using the old clunky machine, possibly even further behind.

Now facing the prospect of financial ruin, we have decided the only way forward is to return to the old clunky machine, and hope despite the period of inactivity it still produces the mince albeit in a noisy and ugly way.
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Excellent riposte, sir.
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Enoch » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:35 pm

I've often made mention of my Millwall thug mate on this forum and a few of the regulars on here have had the pleasure of meeting him. Sadly the lad passed away on Wednesday after battling with a heart condition. He was 48 years old.

In the Original Bay Horse one match day McGinley looked a tad disinterested as yet another fan introduced himself. He wasn't expecting what followed. The fella started waxing lyrical about goals he'd scored for the Lions! They chatted for a good while.

RIP Andy.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:02 pm

^ Sorry to hear that pal. 48 years old is no age
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:16 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:02 pm
^ Sorry to hear that pal. 48 years old is no age
Ditto.

Was it heart failure? (Only asking out of completely selfish reasons?)
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Enoch » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:42 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:16 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:02 pm
^ Sorry to hear that pal. 48 years old is no age
Ditto.

Was it heart failure? (Only asking out of completely selfish reasons?)
I think it's a condition brought on by a lifetime of supporting a shit football team.

Reader beware!

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:44 pm

Enoch wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:42 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:16 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:02 pm
^ Sorry to hear that pal. 48 years old is no age
Ditto.

Was it heart failure? (Only asking out of completely selfish reasons?)
I think it's a condition brought on by a lifetime of supporting a shit football team.

Reader beware!
Me and him both, then
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:24 pm

Sorry to hear that Enoch. Really enjoyed that night match at Charlton he came to. Didn't seem to be a man who left life half lived.
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Enoch » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:38 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:24 pm
Sorry to hear that Enoch. Really enjoyed that night match at Charlton he came to. Didn't seem to be a man who left life half lived.
That he didn't. How he would have loved that 94th minute winner today.

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by TonyDomingos » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:20 pm

Enoch wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:38 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:24 pm
Sorry to hear that Enoch. Really enjoyed that night match at Charlton he came to. Didn't seem to be a man who left life half lived.
That he didn't. How he would have loved that 94th minute winner today.
Very sorry to hear about this. Met him a couple of times; as Pru says, a lively character!
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:02 am

Enoch wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:35 pm
I've often made mention of my Millwall thug mate on this forum and a few of the regulars on here have had the pleasure of meeting him. Sadly the lad passed away on Wednesday after battling with a heart condition. He was 48 years old.

In the Original Bay Horse one match day McGinley looked a tad disinterested as yet another fan introduced himself. He wasn't expecting what followed. The fella started waxing lyrical about goals he'd scored for the Lions! They chatted for a good while.

RIP Andy.
RIP indeed Enoch. Enjoyed meeting him there with you and had a good chat with him. Sad news.
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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Burnden Paddock » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:35 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:02 am
Enoch wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:35 pm
I've often made mention of my Millwall thug mate on this forum and a few of the regulars on here have had the pleasure of meeting him. Sadly the lad passed away on Wednesday after battling with a heart condition. He was 48 years old.

In the Original Bay Horse one match day McGinley looked a tad disinterested as yet another fan introduced himself. He wasn't expecting what followed. The fella started waxing lyrical about goals he'd scored for the Lions! They chatted for a good while.

RIP Andy.
RIP indeed Enoch. Enjoyed meeting him there with you and had a good chat with him. Sad news.
I was there with you that day LE. Seemed a really good football loving lad. RIP

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Re: Den is the menace: Millwall (a), 3pm Sat 24 Nov 2018

Post by Enoch » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:10 pm

Thanks for all your kind words, fellas.

He was a true footy fan and a proper mate.

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