Administration and recovery

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

Bullshit.
The players are secured football creditors.
They are also guaranteed their wages by the PFA.
Liquidation doesn't mean non-redistribution of available funds FFS.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

The only reason they get anything is because the league will not allow participation if they aren't paid in full. If being liquidated that is no longer an issue so they will at that point just join the list. And in all likelihood receive nowt.

Bollox.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

If you had bid for a property at auction - 10% down within an hour of the hammer coming down - and the balance within 28 days
FV need to pull their fingers out before Bassini or Liquidators pile in

If you bid for a property you offer a price and pay it.

Buying a football club from admin requires - separate deals with each secured creditor, an offer to unsecured creditors of at least 25p in the £, a business plan showing the ability to run the club for 2 years that gains EFL approval, proof of funds (in an account - not just pieces of paper or "credit" as some make out) and passing the various EFL tests...

Its a little more involved and a lot more complicated.

Proof of funds is not dosh in an account, as you make out. It's a lot more complicated than that. And yes, credit notes ARE part of it.

My mate has sat down and worked out approximately how much is secured in Insano's Famous Bank Account - two million tops! And that only under an agreement that it has secured football credit status.
The rest is literally credit only secured and released under a series of transactions starting from signing the Sales & Purchase agreement, and culminating in a Sheffield Wednesday style sale of ground (and hotel), with a guaranteed rental agreement.
It's a house of cards. They don't have the readies.

[Prufrock]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

Bullshit.
The players are secured football creditors.
They are also guaranteed their wages by the PFA.
Liquidation doesn't mean non-redistribution of available funds FFS.

the schizophrenic dementor strikes again.

Secured football creditors isn't a thing. To be a "secured" creditor your credit has to be secured against something. The players have no rights over any of the club assets.

They do have a sort of preferred status in admin because the league rules (no legal effect) require "football creditors" to be paid in full as a condition of playing in the leagues. That has no legal force (and was I think unsuccessfully challenged once by done other creditors). I think the rationale is that if the players aren't paid in full, the club can't compete. If the club can't compete then no-one will want to buy it. If noone buys it it means liquidation and that means less for the creditors than in admin (even though the creditors are effectively demoted behind the players in admin).

If we're liquidated that doesn't apply, we won't be playing anyway and the players are just normal unsecured creditors. Yes the funds would be redistributed, but according to the chain of interests where the players rank unsecured getting pennies in the pound.

I have no idea on the PFA, you might be right though I'd be surprised if they would get it all (or anywhere near) back.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

Bullshit.
The players are secured football creditors.
They are also guaranteed their wages by the PFA.
Liquidation doesn't mean non-redistribution of available funds FFS.

the schizophrenic dementor strikes again.

Secured football creditors isn't a thing. To be a "secured" creditor your credit has to be secured against something. The players have no rights over any of the club assets.

They do have a sort of preferred status in admin because the league rules (no legal effect) require "football creditors" to be paid in full as a condition of playing in the leagues. That has no legal force (and was I think unsuccessfully challenged once by done other creditors). I think the rationale is that if the players aren't paid in full, the club can't compete. If the club can't compete then no-one will want to buy it. If noone buys it it means liquidation and that means less for the creditors than in admin (even though the creditors are effectively demoted behind the players in admin).

If we're liquidated that doesn't apply, we won't be playing anyway and the players are just normal unsecured creditors. Yes the funds would be redistributed, but according to the chain of interests where the players rank unsecured getting pennies in the pound.

I have no idea on the PFA, you might be right though I'd be surprised if they would get it all (or anywhere near) back.

Jesus Christ, you are hard work...
https://www.realbusinessrescue.co.uk/ar ... -creditors

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...which is neither here nor there.
FV don't have the cash. Is anybody out there, hello...

[Prufrock]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

Bullshit.
The players are secured football creditors.
They are also guaranteed their wages by the PFA.
Liquidation doesn't mean non-redistribution of available funds FFS.

the schizophrenic dementor strikes again.

Secured football creditors isn't a thing. To be a "secured" creditor your credit has to be secured against something. The players have no rights over any of the club assets.

They do have a sort of preferred status in admin because the league rules (no legal effect) require "football creditors" to be paid in full as a condition of playing in the leagues. That has no legal force (and was I think unsuccessfully challenged once by done other creditors). I think the rationale is that if the players aren't paid in full, the club can't compete. If the club can't compete then no-one will want to buy it. If noone buys it it means liquidation and that means less for the creditors than in admin (even though the creditors are effectively demoted behind the players in admin).

If we're liquidated that doesn't apply, we won't be playing anyway and the players are just normal unsecured creditors. Yes the funds would be redistributed, but according to the chain of interests where the players rank unsecured getting pennies in the pound.

I have no idea on the PFA, you might be right though I'd be surprised if they would get it all (or anywhere near) back.

Jesus Christ, you are hard work...
https://www.realbusinessrescue.co.uk/ar ... -creditors

I mean, that link 100% supports what I said.

It's talking about admin. The "football creditors rule" has no legal force. It's the equivalent of a golf club voting to bring back hanging. The reason administrators are allowed to follow it is the rationale I gave above, that other creditors will get more than if the business goes under.

In liquidation the business has gone under. The players would then be unsecured creditors and join the queue with everyone else. That the EFL have a rule that says they should get it all has no force.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

Bullshit.
The players are secured football creditors.
They are also guaranteed their wages by the PFA.
Liquidation doesn't mean non-redistribution of available funds FFS.

the schizophrenic dementor strikes again.

Secured football creditors isn't a thing. To be a "secured" creditor your credit has to be secured against something. The players have no rights over any of the club assets.

They do have a sort of preferred status in admin because the league rules (no legal effect) require "football creditors" to be paid in full as a condition of playing in the leagues. That has no legal force (and was I think unsuccessfully challenged once by done other creditors). I think the rationale is that if the players aren't paid in full, the club can't compete. If the club can't compete then no-one will want to buy it. If noone buys it it means liquidation and that means less for the creditors than in admin (even though the creditors are effectively demoted behind the players in admin).

If we're liquidated that doesn't apply, we won't be playing anyway and the players are just normal unsecured creditors. Yes the funds would be redistributed, but according to the chain of interests where the players rank unsecured getting pennies in the pound.

I have no idea on the PFA, you might be right though I'd be surprised if they would get it all (or anywhere near) back.

Jesus Christ, you are hard work...
https://www.realbusinessrescue.co.uk/ar ... -creditors

I mean, that link 100% supports what I said.

It's talking about admin. The "football creditors rule" has no legal force. It's the equivalent of a golf club voting to bring back hanging. The reason administrators are allowed to follow it is the rationale I gave above, that other creditors will get more than if the business goes under.

In liquidation the business has gone under. The players would then be unsecured creditors and join the queue with everyone else. That the EFL have a rule that says they should get it all has no force.

Which at that fxcking point the Professional Footballers Association would pay the fxcking players... Which bit don't you get????????? ...and you call me demented?

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't think the players are guaranteed anything if it comes to liquidation. They will just be unsecured creditors I think.

Bullshit.
The players are secured football creditors.
They are also guaranteed their wages by the PFA.
Liquidation doesn't mean non-redistribution of available funds FFS.

the schizophrenic dementor strikes again.

Secured football creditors isn't a thing. To be a "secured" creditor your credit has to be secured against something. The players have no rights over any of the club assets.

They do have a sort of preferred status in admin because the league rules (no legal effect) require "football creditors" to be paid in full as a condition of playing in the leagues. That has no legal force (and was I think unsuccessfully challenged once by done other creditors). I think the rationale is that if the players aren't paid in full, the club can't compete. If the club can't compete then no-one will want to buy it. If noone buys it it means liquidation and that means less for the creditors than in admin (even though the creditors are effectively demoted behind the players in admin).

If we're liquidated that doesn't apply, we won't be playing anyway and the players are just normal unsecured creditors. Yes the funds would be redistributed, but according to the chain of interests where the players rank unsecured getting pennies in the pound.

I have no idea on the PFA, you might be right though I'd be surprised if they would get it all (or anywhere near) back.

Bingo. Spot on. The only protection is from football itself. Once a club is liquidated and hence no longer a member of the league the players will be unsecured creditors on a list. And in our position receive nowt.

The PFA may well pay them all their wages but they are a union so likely would offer some support but probably not the millions that will be owed to current and former players in the event of liquidation.

[Harry Genshaw]

^ (Pru) that's how I imagined it would be.

In the event of liquidation any assets would just be gobbled up by HMRC wouldn't they? Will Buckley will have to queue up with Carrs, Bolton council and all the ground staff for whatever's left

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^ (Pru) that's how I imagined it would be.

In the event of liquidation any assets would just be gobbled up by HMRC wouldn't they? Will Buckley will have to queue up with Carrs, Bolton council and all the ground staff for whatever's left

No he fxcking won't. Have you any idea how much the PFA take in subscriptions? Have you any idea of what would happen to the fxcking PFA if six players weren't paid wages they were owed for six months?

[LeverEnd]

^ (Pru) that's how I imagined it would be.

In the event of liquidation any assets would just be gobbled up by HMRC wouldn't they? Will Buckley will have to queue up with Carrs, Bolton council and all the ground staff for whatever's left

No he fxcking won't. Have you any idea how much the PFA take in subscriptions? Have you any idea of what would happen to the fxcking PFA if six players weren't paid wages they were owed for six months?

It's not the PFA's fault. They don't owe the players. They're a union, not an insurance company. They'll help out with hardship payments and/or loans but can't imagine for a minute they'll cough up all the backpay. That would be a dangerous precedent for them with various other clubs in the same boat.
I realise it's a cash rich union but don't see that happening. And if it does it's at their discretion, nothing to do with the football creditors rule.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^ (Pru) that's how I imagined it would be.

In the event of liquidation any assets would just be gobbled up by HMRC wouldn't they? Will Buckley will have to queue up with Carrs, Bolton council and all the ground staff for whatever's left

No he fxcking won't. Have you any idea how much the PFA take in subscriptions? Have you any idea of what would happen to the fxcking PFA if six players weren't paid wages they were owed for six months?

It's not the PFA's fault. They don't owe the players. They're a union, not an insurance company. They'll help out with hardship payments and/or loans but can't imagine for a minute they'll cough up all the backpay. That would be a dangerous precedent for them with various other clubs in the same boat.
I realise it's a cash rich union but don't see that happening. And if it does it's at their discretion, nothing to do with the football creditors rule.

I didn't say it was to do with the football creditors rule.
In liquidation there is still cash to be distributed. If the PFA don't make up the full volume, given they are cash rich, and given (despite your contention that many other clubs are in the same boat- which currently they aren't) then I'll just be another psychotic moron who knows nowt. But I can live with that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

All of which is besides the main point. FV don't have the fxcking wherewithal to complete the fxcking deal...

[Prufrock]

^ (Pru) that's how I imagined it would be.

In the event of liquidation any assets would just be gobbled up by HMRC wouldn't they? Will Buckley will have to queue up with Carrs, Bolton council and all the ground staff for whatever's left

It used to be like that but HMRC no longer has preferred status, so the taxman is in the queue with Carr's, the players and everyone else. (Though there are plans to reverse that I think)

Re: the PFA I'm speculating, but can't see why, if they would ultimately be in the hook for all the wages, they wouldn't have lent it to the players by now.

[Worthy4England]

This looks to be the "important" thing....Nothing appears to be moving. So regardless of whether players get paid in scenario A, B or C, they're not getting paid until this is resolved (I'd be off if I were they) and nor can we sign anyone or prep for new season...

Another day passes.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^ (Pru) that's how I imagined it would be.

In the event of liquidation any assets would just be gobbled up by HMRC wouldn't they? Will Buckley will have to queue up with Carrs, Bolton council and all the ground staff for whatever's left

It used to be like that but HMRC no longer has preferred status, so the taxman is in the queue with Carr's, the players and everyone else. (Though there are plans to reverse that I think)

Re: the PFA I'm speculating, but can't see why, if they would ultimately be in the hook for all the wages, they wouldn't have lent it to the players by now.

Because it's a fall back position. Why pay it when you don't have to, why lend it when you don't need to?
Especially as the club/administrators/(Insano's insane idea of a £25million bank account already set up stuffed full of cash with not a credit note in sight) should be paying the fxcking wage.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

This looks to be the "important" thing....Nothing appears to be moving. So regardless of whether players get paid in scenario A, B or C, they're not getting paid until this is resolved (I'd be off if I were they) and nor can we sign anyone or prep for new season...

Another day passes.

I refer you to a previous post I posted.

My mate has sat down and worked out approximately how much is secured in Insano's Famous Bank Account - two million tops! And that only under an agreement that it has secured football credit status.
The rest is literally credit only secured and released under a series of transactions starting from signing the Sales & Purchase agreement, and culminating in a Sheffield Wednesday style sale of ground (and hotel), with a guaranteed rental agreement.
It's a house of cards. They don't have the readies.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

But then again, I know nowt. I'm just a fxcking irritating nutter...

[Worthy4England]

It used to be like that but HMRC no longer has preferred status, so the taxman is in the queue with Carr's, the players and everyone else. (Though there are plans to reverse that I think)

April 2020 they're due to reverse it. At the rate we're going, we might not be complete by then.