Up for the cups in 20/21

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Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:52 pm

All focus is on that much-discussed promotion target, but the best Wanderers managers - from Foweraker and Ridding through Armfield and Greaves to Rioch and Allardyce – have known the positivity that a cup run can engender. And with a strong, deep squad to pick from, Ian Evatt might relish the chance to juggle his options – not to mention the chance of a pop at the bigger boys...

Also worth noting our weird 20/21 season starts with two cup games - the Carabao Cup (ie League Cup) on Sat 5 Aug followed by the EFL Trophy (ie Sherpa Van) the following midweek, with the league programme starting on Sat 12 Aug.

And it's the Sherpa Van that's been drawn first, with the announcement of the (regionalised) groups. We are in with Crewe and (Sam Ricketts') Shrewsbury, plus an as-yet-undecided Big Clubs' Kids team. (Those teams are Arsenal, Villa, Brighton, Chelsea, Fulham, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Newcastle, Norwich, Southampton, West Brom, West Ham and Wolves; it's regionalised.)

So: Wembley, anyone?

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Prufrock » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:57 pm

So, Villa, Leeds, Liverpool, City, United, Newcastle, West Brom and Wolves the options I'm guessing?
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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:14 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:57 pm
So, Villa, Leeds, Liverpool, City, United, Newcastle, West Brom and Wolves the options I'm guessing?
Sounds right; I don't think they've announced, or decided. Dunno why but it's the EFL so I've given up guessing.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by truewhite15 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:28 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:52 pm
All focus is on that much-discussed promotion target, but the best Wanderers managers - from Foweraker and Ridding through Armfield and Greaves to Rioch and Allardyce – have known the positivity that a cup run can engender. And with a strong, deep squad to pick from, Ian Evatt might relish the chance to juggle his options – not to mention the chance of a pop at the bigger boys...

Also worth noting our weird 20/21 season starts with two cup games - the Carabao Cup (ie League Cup) on Sat 5 Aug followed by the EFL Trophy (ie Sherpa Van) the following midweek, with the league programme starting on Sat 12 Aug.

And it's the Sherpa Van that's been drawn first, with the announcement of the (regionalised) groups. We are in with Crewe and (Sam Ricketts') Shrewsbury, plus an as-yet-undecided Big Clubs' Kids team. (Those teams are Arsenal, Villa, Brighton, Chelsea, Fulham, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Newcastle, Norwich, Southampton, West Brom, West Ham and Wolves; it's regionalised.)

So: Wembley, anyone?
I agree with the sentiment, and we should certainly be gunning for a Sherpa Van final.

But the season certainly doesn't kick off in August, mate!

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:32 pm

truewhite15 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:28 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:52 pm
All focus is on that much-discussed promotion target, but the best Wanderers managers - from Foweraker and Ridding through Armfield and Greaves to Rioch and Allardyce – have known the positivity that a cup run can engender. And with a strong, deep squad to pick from, Ian Evatt might relish the chance to juggle his options – not to mention the chance of a pop at the bigger boys...

Also worth noting our weird 20/21 season starts with two cup games - the Carabao Cup (ie League Cup) on Sat 5 Aug followed by the EFL Trophy (ie Sherpa Van) the following midweek, with the league programme starting on Sat 12 Aug.

And it's the Sherpa Van that's been drawn first, with the announcement of the (regionalised) groups. We are in with Crewe and (Sam Ricketts') Shrewsbury, plus an as-yet-undecided Big Clubs' Kids team. (Those teams are Arsenal, Villa, Brighton, Chelsea, Fulham, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Newcastle, Norwich, Southampton, West Brom, West Ham and Wolves; it's regionalised.)

So: Wembley, anyone?
I agree with the sentiment, and we should certainly be gunning for a Sherpa Van final.

But the season certainly doesn't kick off in August, mate!
Dagnabbit I knew I shoulda checked that!!! :mrgreen:

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:12 pm

Want to have a go at the trophy this year. Hopefully only two more goes at winning it!

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:06 am

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:57 pm
So, Villa, Leeds, Liverpool, City, United, Newcastle, West Brom and Wolves the options I'm guessing
Apparently the options are Manchester United, Liverpool, Manchester City, Leeds United, Newcastle United, Leicester City, Wolves or Aston Villa. So Leicester rather than West Brom. The draw for that is at 1.30pm on Talksport 2.

First though, it’s the League Cup, and we’re playing at home to Bradford City.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by brommers95 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:31 am

Pleased with that draw. A good test to see how we stack up against a side that will be probably be in or around the playoffs this season.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:11 pm

The top-flight club whose kids will join our Sherpa Van group is........... Newcastle.

Busy old schedule to start with, if we keep winning :wink: so I thought I'd lash the cup dates in here for safekeeping.

SEP
Sat 5 Bradford (H) League Cup
Tue 8 Sherpa Van group game 1
Sat 12 League game 1
Tue 15 possible Lge Cup 2
Sat 19 League game 2
Tue 22 possible Lge Cup 3
Sat 26 League game 3
Tue 29 possible Lge Cup 4
OCT
Sat 3 League game 4
Tue 6 Sherpa Van group game 2
Sat 10 League game 5
...and then, it seems, a midweek off...

NB Tue games could be Wed, but y'know.
League fixtures are announced at 9am this Friday (21st)
Remaining round dates:

LEAGUE TWO
8/9 May - Final day
29/31 May - Play-Off Final

FA CUP
7 Nov - First Round
28 Nov - Second Round
9 Jan - Third Round
23 Jan - Fourth Round
10 Feb - Fifth Round
20 Mar - Sixth Round
17 Apr - Semi-finals
15 May - Final

LEAGUE CUP
22/23 Dec - Round Five
5/6 Jan - Semi-Finals
28 Feb - Final

SHERPA VAN
10/11 Nov - Third group game
8/9 Dec - Round of 32
12/13 Jan - Round of 16
2/3 Feb - Quarter-Finals
16/17 Feb - Semi-Finals
14 Mar - Final

INTERNATIONAL BREAKS
(which could affect us if we or our opponents have three players called up)
Oct 10
Nov 14
Mar 27

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by brommers95 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:04 pm

Just a thought, whilst watching that interview with Evatt* he again mentions "winning mentality". It's been a recurring theme in almost all his interviews. I get a sense he's someone who's very driven and strives for excellence in everything he does, which leads me to believe he'll setup the team, and expect the players to win these cup games, no matter how tinpot we think they are.

*here for those yet to watch:
CODE: SELECT ALL

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:51 pm

9th Jan, Palace away, hopes of a money-spinner dashed, noses pushed out of joint by their youth side, beaten up on the way out, chips with no gravy. Ahhhh, the magic of the FA Cup :)
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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:20 am

EFL Trophy (Sherpa Van) fixture dates have been widely reported, if not yet by the EFL itself. Seems ours are:

Sep 8 CREWE (H)
Oct 6 Shrewsbury (A)
Nov 10 NEWCASTLE U23 (H)

The Newcastle game will be our fourth successive Tuesday game and thus our eighth in 25 days. There's an international weekend immediately thereafter so if we get three call-ups, most of our lads can have a breather then... if not, it's just Salford at home... :D

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:37 pm

You'd think it'll be a case of second string in the EFL ties and first team (or a mix) in the proper cups.

Personally I love cup competitions and I do think you should be giving it a full go in every competition you are in. If it's a proper cup you should want to win it for the prestige. If it's tinpot you should be embarrassed to lose and your pride should drive you on. Same reason I imagine IE was bloody fuming at that 5-1 loss to Wigan. Basic pride.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do. I expect some absolutely dire performances at times with such a new squad, but hopefully we see some cracking games too. I miss the old cup runs where we scared the crap out of the big boys.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:20 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:37 pm
You'd think it'll be a case of second string in the EFL ties and first team (or a mix) in the proper cups.

Personally I love cup competitions and I do think you should be giving it a full go in every competition you are in. If it's a proper cup you should want to win it for the prestige. If it's tinpot you should be embarrassed to lose and your pride should drive you on. Same reason I imagine IE was bloody fuming at that 5-1 loss to Wigan. Basic pride.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do. I expect some absolutely dire performances at times with such a new squad, but hopefully we see some cracking games too. I miss the old cup runs where we scared the crap out of the big boys.
I'm bang up for a cup run or two, helps gee the place up. Remember, unlike the 'mainstream' cups (AFAIK) the Sherpa Van has rules in place against wholesale changes - you have to pick something like five of the your previous XI or your most-chosen XI. It's also, in each of the three group games, a test against higher-division opposition – although sort-of-not-really in Newcastle U23's case. I think Evatt, who's well aware of brand-building, will want to do well against clubs higher up.

That run of Sat-Tue-Sat games I mentioned in Oct/Nov - in our case, Oldham (H), Barrow (A), Cambridge (A), Bradford (H), Orient (A), Mansfield (H), FA Cup First Round, Newcastle (H, Sherpa Van), then Salford (H) unless we've got three call-ups - is going to test many a squad. It's going to require either wholesale rotation, occasionally resting players, or supreme fitness. And it works both ways - if (if) we've got the ball and the lead they should be running harder than us.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:20 pm

For EFL is it still a case of 4 players who started either the game before or the game after, or has it changed?

In terms of Saturday-Tuesday - yeah, that'll wreck players fairly quickly unless there's plenty of rotation. Seems like all managers do it differently and it'll be interesting to see the route taken by IE. I suppose one advantage of having so many younger players about is that they tend to be more able to handle a constant flow of matches.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:04 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:20 pm
For EFL is it still a case of 4 players who started either the game before or the game after, or has it changed?
Sort of. These were the rules for last season's EFL Trophy, as at https://www.efl.com/efl-trophy/the-competition/rules/
7.3 Each EFL Club shall play its Full Available Strength in and during all Matches. Full Available Strength means the EFL Club must include at least four Qualifying Players in the ten outfield Players named in the starting eleven on the Team Sheet.

7.4 Qualifying Player means any Player who:

7.4.1 had started the immediately preceding First Team Fixture (as defined below);

7.4.2 subsequently starts the immediately following First Team Fixture;

7.4.3 is in the list of ten Players at the Club with the highest number of starting appearances in First Team Fixtures in the same Season;

7.4.4 has made forty or more starting appearances in First Team Fixtures or international equivalents (and not limited to the same Club or Season); or

7.4.5 is on standard loan from a Premier League Club or any EFL Club operating a Category One Academy.

7.5 First Team Fixture means the League Competition, Premier League, EFL Cup or FA Challenge Cup (but shall, in the context of Rules 7.4.3 and 7.4.4 only, also include this Competition).
Blackburn's Academy is Category One so Tom White is exempt under 7.4.5; it's only outfielders so Matty Alexander can play without punishment. What might cause a problem is rule 7.4.4, because some of our fringe players haven't played 40 games excluding non-league. The numbers that I collated over here don't include FA Cup, League Cup and EFL Trophy games whereas these rules do, but at a glance I would say that 40-game rule excludes Gordon, Brockbank, Greenidge, Hickman, Mascoll, Darcy, King-Harmes, Faal, Senior and Edwards – just the kind of players Evatt might wish to rotate in. Indeed, outside the initially expected first XI (Crellin, Santos-Delaney-Taft, Jones-Sarce-Comley-Gordon, Crawford, Doyler-Fonz) then only Baptiste would tick that box (and Adam if he comes, but not Amoateng).

That doesn't mean we can't rotate six of them in and keep four "first-teamers", or two if we use White and Baptiste under the above exemptions, but we won't see an entirely shadow side - which is exactly why the rule was brought in. But once all players are up to full fitness, and assuming they're of a similar level of competence to the players they're competing with, we might see players like Brockbank (for Santos), Greenidge (for Taft) and Hickman (for Jones) get a couple of successive starts - one in the League game either side of the Trophy game.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:04 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:20 am
EFL Trophy (Sherpa Van) fixture dates have been widely reported, if not yet by the EFL itself. Seems ours are:

Sep 8 CREWE (H)
Oct 6 Shrewsbury (A)
Nov 10 NEWCASTLE U23 (H)
These dates have now been confirmed by the club, each of them a 7pm KO. Apparently it's Newcastle U21s and that game, like the Crewe one, will be at the Unibol. No word yet on iFollow but you imagine they'll be happy to do the Crewe one and wait and see on the Newcastle; presumably Shrewsbury will make a decision on broadcasting the game they host.

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2020/august ... -fixtures/

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:15 pm

Been thinking a bit more about the two cup games in succession with which Wanderers commence their inevitable progress toward glory or disillusionment (delete to taste).

I think it's fair to say Evatt will go full-strength against Bradford. At the moment, and barring any last-minute signings of fully-fit players who innately understand Evatt's system, that'd probably be Crellin, Santos/Delaney/Taft, Jones/Sarce/Comley/Gordon, Crawford, Fonz/Doyler:
.
first XI.png
first XI.png (118.07 KiB) Viewed 239 times
.
There are arguable selections there. An Ilesy piece this morning suggests Baptiste may oust Delaney and wonders if Crawford – who's barely got past the hour in any friendly - is under threat from White, with Sarce playing at 10. (He also says it'd be nice to see Darcy, but that looks unlikely just yet considering he's not played more than 45 minutes in a friendly and didn't appear at all against Crewe.) However, for now let's go with that XI – and hope they win.

Then it's the EFL Trophy Sherpa Van Johnstones Paint Checkatrade Associate Members Cup, for which he might want to rotate a bit and give other some minutes – and the chance to stake claims. Now, the EFL have rules in place against wholesale changes, but they're not *that* stringent. They only cover outfielders and don't apply to loanees from Cat-One Academies (including White) or anyone with 40+ senior appearances.

Furthermore you only have to have four players fulfilling either of those criteria, or who played in the last game, or who will play in the next. Given that White and Baptiste (or Crawford and Delaney, if they're dropped from the XI against Bradford) are barley, that effectively means we only have to have two men from Saturday's game playing again – and at the moment we only have two senior strikers and five real competitors for the midfield triangle. Which means Evatt could, if he chose (and I've read the rules right), play the following substantially different XI:
.
2ndXI.png
2ndXI.png (118.09 KiB) Viewed 239 times
.
Whether he'd want to or not is a different story. It is, after all, Crewe, who beat our first team on Friday. But the opportunity is there - and you imagine he'll want to know a good deal about several of his players in real competition.

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Re: Up for the cups in 20/21

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:46 pm

Would be interesting to see Crawford at 10. He got 12 in a season for Hamilton once when they gave him more licence to push forward and support Antoine-Currier. His form was one of the reasons Alex Neil got the Norwich job. I just hope he stays fit.

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