Season Expectations

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Minimum Expectation For The Season

Poll ended at Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:19 am

League Champions
2
7%
Automatic Promotion
7
26%
Playoffs
11
41%
Top Half Finish
6
22%
Avoid Relegation
1
4%
 
Total votes: 27

BWFC_Insane
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Re: Season Expectations

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:57 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:48 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:30 pm
We have someone who ticks that box. Despite some intricate midfield play he got fcuk all service today.
Not really. You are right that we did Doyle absolutely no favours today, but he's not the sort to make himself felt and ruffle feathers. He'd have liked the stuff Novak got, but when we had lads turn in midfield to pass you didn't see Bradford looking uncomfortable. Delfouneso caused them far more problems than Doyle did.

Doyle isn't a presence, he's a threat, if you see what I mean. Get him the ball and he'll bag you a few. Without service he's a passenger
What I’ve seen of Doyle is he thrives on early service. My concern is how we played yesterday I don’t remember a single early pass or ball into the box early or not. You won’t in my view get the best out of Doyle if your game is going out to in and back again. In this system wing backs should be judged against how many times they get behind and get a ball in or just use a yard and whip it in. If you aren’t doing that you are in my view struggling at this level. Which is why Jones didn’t particularly thrill me. Once you come back inside to midfield you just aren’t going to get the best out of Doyle who needs much earlier service. A lot of his goals were scored on the break last season....I suspect once you start playing back into midfield at this level very very few goals are scored from open play because teams get back into shape and unless you have someone who can go through the gears very easily in the middle of the park it’s though to create clear chances. For me you need a way of playing that turns the opposition. Be it down the channels to Delfouneso or your wing backs actually playing like wing backs and taking the full back on. One way or another we won’t see joy at home passing it sideways.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:30 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:57 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:48 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:30 pm
We have someone who ticks that box. Despite some intricate midfield play he got fcuk all service today.
Not really. You are right that we did Doyle absolutely no favours today, but he's not the sort to make himself felt and ruffle feathers. He'd have liked the stuff Novak got, but when we had lads turn in midfield to pass you didn't see Bradford looking uncomfortable. Delfouneso caused them far more problems than Doyle did.

Doyle isn't a presence, he's a threat, if you see what I mean. Get him the ball and he'll bag you a few. Without service he's a passenger
What I’ve seen of Doyle is he thrives on early service. My concern is how we played yesterday I don’t remember a single early pass or ball into the box early or not. You won’t in my view get the best out of Doyle if your game is going out to in and back again. In this system wing backs should be judged against how many times they get behind and get a ball in or just use a yard and whip it in. If you aren’t doing that you are in my view struggling at this level. Which is why Jones didn’t particularly thrill me. Once you come back inside to midfield you just aren’t going to get the best out of Doyle who needs much earlier service. A lot of his goals were scored on the break last season....I suspect once you start playing back into midfield at this level very very few goals are scored from open play because teams get back into shape and unless you have someone who can go through the gears very easily in the middle of the park it’s though to create clear chances. For me you need a way of playing that turns the opposition. Be it down the channels to Delfouneso or your wing backs actually playing like wing backs and taking the full back on. One way or another we won’t see joy at home passing it sideways.

I don't know if it was just my perception, the camera angle, the lack of supporters in the stands or something else, but it felt to me that we were still playing at the pace of a pre-season friendly. I got the sense as well that Gordon really needed an early run in behind to settle his nerves.

I'm sure it will come, but I agree we have to play with more urgency.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:46 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:48 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:30 pm
We have someone who ticks that box. Despite some intricate midfield play he got fcuk all service today.
Not really. You are right that we did Doyle absolutely no favours today, but he's not the sort to make himself felt and ruffle feathers. He'd have liked the stuff Novak got, but when we had lads turn in midfield to pass you didn't see Bradford looking uncomfortable. Delfouneso caused them far more problems than Doyle did.

Doyle isn't a presence, he's a threat, if you see what I mean. Get him the ball and he'll bag you a few. Without service he's a passenger
Fair points. It just seemed surprising to me that so little of our game looked structured to the way our leading light plays. I don't think we need a great lump just being physical (unless they're also "20 goals a season" types), but in the context of yesterday's showing that type of player might have been more apparent than Doyle.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:29 pm

I think we'd be well advised to have that target man type available, even if Doyle starts most games. Certainly if we are going to play that hoofball we tried after we went to a back 4...that was painful with Doyle up top.

I don't think their system did us any favours. They were able to go man-for-man on our wing backs and double-up on Sarc and it really shut down our creative options. Our most threatening creative players ended up being the two wide centre backs who ended up almost like half-backs. We want that option, but it can't be the main show.

As others have said we need to find the wingbacks and cycle through the compartments faster, but when you are man marked that becomes harder. I doubt anyone has ever bothered to man mark Jones before and he seemed like he didn't know what to do except go backwards. Gordon you'd hope for more from with his pace, but because he only has a left foot they knew where he was going and closed him out.

The couple of times we got midfielders beyond the wingbacks when they were hemmed in Bradford were worried, but our passing fell apart. Arguably that gets better with games and maybe a month from now we get chances from those situations. Time will tell.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:06 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:29 pm
I think we'd be well advised to have that target man type available, even if Doyle starts most games. Certainly if we are going to play that hoofball we tried after we went to a back 4...that was painful with Doyle up top.

I don't think their system did us any favours. They were able to go man-for-man on our wing backs and double-up on Sarc and it really shut down our creative options. Our most threatening creative players ended up being the two wide centre backs who ended up almost like half-backs. We want that option, but it can't be the main show.

As others have said we need to find the wingbacks and cycle through the compartments faster, but when you are man marked that becomes harder. I doubt anyone has ever bothered to man mark Jones before and he seemed like he didn't know what to do except go backwards. Gordon you'd hope for more from with his pace, but because he only has a left foot they knew where he was going and closed him out.

The couple of times we got midfielders beyond the wingbacks when they were hemmed in Bradford were worried, but our passing fell apart. Arguably that gets better with games and maybe a month from now we get chances from those situations. Time will tell.
But watching how we played any team coming here will stick two quick lads up top and just go man for man behind the ball and hit it into the channels as we lose possession. It’s an easy out every time. Tactically we need to work that out because we patently aren’t good enough to keep enough of the ball for that to not be an issue.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:06 pm
But watching how we played any team coming here will stick two quick lads up top and just go man for man behind the ball and hit it into the channels as we lose possession. It’s an easy out every time. Tactically we need to work that out because we patently aren’t good enough to keep enough of the ball for that to not be an issue.
I think pace up top is the bane of most teams at this level, but I do agree with you.

My main concern with Evatt is that when his system was exploited at Barrow in a couple of games I watched he blamed individual performances in his post match stuff. I hope there isn't any Owen Coyle syndrome with him, where when we win it's the manager's glorious footballing philosophy and when we lose it is the players losing "individual battles."

I'm not expecting him to be Trapattoni, but I'd like to see good tactical awareness from him.

If yesterday is anything to go by we are playing a traditional zona mista system with League Two players. Should be a laugh.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:13 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:06 pm
But watching how we played any team coming here will stick two quick lads up top and just go man for man behind the ball and hit it into the channels as we lose possession. It’s an easy out every time. Tactically we need to work that out because we patently aren’t good enough to keep enough of the ball for that to not be an issue.
I think pace up top is the bane of most teams at this level, but I do agree with you.

My main concern with Evatt is that when his system was exploited at Barrow in a couple of games I watched he blamed individual performances in his post match stuff. I hope there isn't any Owen Coyle syndrome with him, where when we win it's the manager's glorious footballing philosophy and when we lose it is the players losing "individual battles."

I'm not expecting him to be Trapattoni, but I'd like to see good tactical awareness from him.

If yesterday is anything to go by we are playing a traditional zona mista system with League Two players. Should be a laugh.
I mean however rigid Evatt is to his style he actually has one and a system that he clearly understands intimately. Owen Coyle didn’t, and beyond being a hand clapping seal had absolutely no relevant insights to offer.

Evatt might be expecting a lot of his players, perhaps too much but so did Guardiola initially. It’s a tough one because you are on the perennial have a pragmatic manager like Parky to get results but you will never build something greater or have a manager who has a bigger vision but risk short term results.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:22 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:13 pm
I mean however rigid Evatt is to his style he actually has one and a system that he clearly understands intimately. Owen Coyle didn’t, and beyond being a hand clapping seal had absolutely no relevant insights to offer.

Evatt might be expecting a lot of his players, perhaps too much but so did Guardiola initially. It’s a tough one because you are on the perennial have a pragmatic manager like Parky to get results but you will never build something greater or have a manager who has a bigger vision but risk short term results.
Don't get me wrong, I like the look of him - but when a new manager comes in you always have things that worry you and things you hope for. My worry with Evatt is that he's so sure of himself that if it's not working he might look for scapegoats rather than solutions.

Unless we are rock bottom of the league at Christmas he will have me behind him for at least 18 months. Turning Bolton into 80s Juventus is a big ask and I'm on board for the ride. Should be fun.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:48 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:13 pm
I mean however rigid Evatt is to his style he actually has one and a system that he clearly understands intimately. Owen Coyle didn’t, and beyond being a hand clapping seal had absolutely no relevant insights to offer.

Evatt might be expecting a lot of his players, perhaps too much but so did Guardiola initially. It’s a tough one because you are on the perennial have a pragmatic manager like Parky to get results but you will never build something greater or have a manager who has a bigger vision but risk short term results.
Don't get me wrong, I like the look of him - but when a new manager comes in you always have things that worry you and things you hope for. My worry with Evatt is that he's so sure of himself that if it's not working he might look for scapegoats rather than solutions.

Unless we are rock bottom of the league at Christmas he will have me behind him for at least 18 months. Turning Bolton into 80s Juventus is a big ask and I'm on board for the ride. Should be fun.
My worry is whether he can handle criticism and pressure. But yeah it’s a fine balance results, styles, systems...

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by nelson66 » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:35 pm

Mid table until Xmas
It will take a while for everything to settle down
Then .... we're gonna smash it and up we go :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:
The Whites Are Going Up 2021 :pissed: :grin:

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:42 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:48 pm
My worry is whether he can handle criticism and pressure. But yeah it’s a fine balance results, styles, systems...
We're bound to find out at some point. Even Big Sam had the boo boys out at times. Worry then would be a manager coming in and trying to play any other brand of football with this squad. That'll be something for the board to consider in the summer that I hadn't thought of, actually. If we are then at a stage where we can spend money and offer longer contracts what do we do if Evatt hasn't bombed but we're not sure about him? If he builds a squad we are tied in to his system for at least a couple of years. Same goes for what we do if he turns out to be the second coming and some big club takes him off us. Vincini is dead, so he's probably not an option :lol:

Personally I'm optimistic. Plus I'll take anything that shuts up the "FOUR FOUR BLOODY TWO" brigade.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:42 am

Football is a simple game...

I care not one whit about whether we play "FOUR FOUR BLOODY TWO", diamonds, inverted full-backs, tika-taka, totaalvoetbal or any other "style" as long as we win - losing is shit.

I was quite happy to see us trying to play some possession football even though the result went against us. I don't think we tested their keeper anything like enough, although we had a few long range efforts. We didn't do the simple things well enough at the other end of the pitch.

Simple. :-)

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:06 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:42 am
Football is a simple game...

I care not one whit about whether we play "FOUR FOUR BLOODY TWO", diamonds, inverted full-backs, tika-taka, totaalvoetbal or any other "style" as long as we win - losing is shit.

I was quite happy to see us trying to play some possession football even though the result went against us. I don't think we tested their keeper anything like enough, although we had a few long range efforts. We didn't do the simple things well enough at the other end of the pitch.

Simple. :-)
I agree. But the manager wants to play a certain way and has been very clear about that. Adapting to it may take some time but I guess we need to be very patient and trust in it. If we wanted to just scrap results game by game I'd suggest we wouldn't have gone and spent money to recruit Ian Evatt. So as fans like me who generally prioritise a win over anything else - we may have to just suck this period up and let things develop.

I do think in the long run the way Evatt wants to play will build something here - and possibly leave us stronger with a chance of recruiting into an established system rather than hoping we find the odd gem here or there who makes our tight 4-5-1 work....

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:21 pm

I'm a long way from calling for a witch burning. :-) It will of course take some time. Wherever we land, the system has to fit the personnel we have (or at least enough of them to be coherent) - there's no point trying to play a system that the individuals can't actually play to, just because dogmatically that would be "preference". If they don't have the physical/mental capacity to play a particular way, the system needs to adapt.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:26 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:21 pm
I'm a long way from calling for a witch burning. :-) It will of course take some time. Wherever we land, the system has to fit the personnel we have (or at least enough of them to be coherent) - there's no point trying to play a system that the individuals can't actually play to, just because dogmatically that would be "preference". If they don't have the physical/mental capacity to play a particular way, the system needs to adapt.
I guess you can look at Guardiola for example where the system and style is prioritised - yes its a high level but I feel that will be how Evatt is and it might be frustrating at times but the longer term may be joyous. City fans wanted Pep gone after the first year (though find one now who admits to that...).

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:36 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:26 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:21 pm
I'm a long way from calling for a witch burning. :-) It will of course take some time. Wherever we land, the system has to fit the personnel we have (or at least enough of them to be coherent) - there's no point trying to play a system that the individuals can't actually play to, just because dogmatically that would be "preference". If they don't have the physical/mental capacity to play a particular way, the system needs to adapt.
I guess you can look at Guardiola for example where the system and style is prioritised - yes its a high level but I feel that will be how Evatt is and it might be frustrating at times but the longer term may be joyous. City fans wanted Pep gone after the first year (though find one now who admits to that...).
I can look at Guardiola as much as I want, but I don't think it's a comparable situation. I don't recall any City fans saying they wanted Guardiola out after one year. Certainly none of the ST holders I go out supping with. :-) And they had a pretty large advantage, that they could over a couple of transfer windows pretty much guarantee to get something close enough to the "right sort of player" for each position.

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Re: Season Expectations

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:06 pm

I basically think we are Swansea in the early 2000s. Down on our uppers and losing our sense of identity. The new owners want to define a Bolton brand of football and it's a passing game they have settled on. If Evatt doesn't work out I am not sure we'll see anything other than them recruit another "passing" manager. A decent-sized club known for playing attractive football in a nice ground should draw sponsorship and young fans are more likely to support "Boltcelona" than a "lump it" side.

Ultimately, it's a business decision as much as anything else.

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