Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:29 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:02 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:36 pm
My view fwiw, is we were overall better last night, taken as a whole, than we were against Bradford. Against a team from a higher division than Bradford. In that sense, I'd think that it's some of the Bradford contingent that need to "make the case", albeit, the defensive pick 3 from 5 could go into <insert managers name here> magic selection hat for me. Looking at the players who started last night, I think Hickman did more than enough to make his case. We looked way more dangerous on that right and I don't think our weakness at the back was particularly down to anything Hickman did/didn't do.

Delaney probably did enough for me (compared to the other 4 CD's I've seen) to just about get a spot.

Miller - we looked good with him on the pitch - but, Delfouneso done nowt wrong and I can't see Doyle getting dropped so I suspect it's an either/or between Miller and Delfouneso but over two games Delfouneso has showed more than Doyle for me, but equally not sure the Fonz and Miller is the right pick as not seen them in the same game...Dilemma.

Crawford starts for me, assuming fit.

I think I'd be disappointed if there were no changes from Bradford game - we were pretty woeful - although I could see that this might happen.
Surely very little chance that Doyle doesn't start on Saturday? Again, with the caveat of me not having watched last night's game, I'd also think there's not much chance of the Fonz getting dropped at this stage. Those two very much look like IE's starting forwards for the foreseeable unless Doyle doesn't find his shooting boots or Nathan puts in a number of poor showings.
I think you're on the money TG. I'd be very surprised to see us start with anyone other than Fonz/Doyle, but Miller did look good when he came on - which is allegedly a "nice headache" to have.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:28 pm

Have rewatched it. Have to say the Crewe commentary improved the experience.

Given what has been said on here and Twitter I am thinking people were blaming Taft for both the second and third goals, but the second one was Delaney and the third was offside. He had to make a challenge for the pen, it was a goal otherwise. Taft dealt with his man all night and the only times he got in were when Delaney missed a header and then when Delaney was picking him up and made a mes of it. He made errors, as they all did, but if I had to pick out the most solid of the three it was Taft. Delaney got dominated by Mandron.

I am struggling to see an argument for Delaney taking Taft's place. Taft looks a much better player, to me.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:55 pm

It all looks a bit "tallest dwarf" from the first two showings for me in those central defence positions. I'm not seeing any shoo ins from the two games I've seen. Certainly there as much as case for Taft playing as the others. Santos has been worst of the lot for me.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:44 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:55 pm
It all looks a bit "tallest dwarf" from the first two showings for me in those central defence positions. I'm not seeing any shoo ins from the two games I've seen. Certainly there as much as case for Taft playing as the others. Santos has been worst of the lot for me.
I don't disagree, but I suppose what I'd say is that in these early stages you look at the qualities in the players and try to see what they could be like in a drilled unit. I haven't watched any of them and thought "you're never a league player", I've just thought they needed more work on the training pitch and a bollocking.

Santos is probably the one with the biggest natural advantages. His size, his power and his technical attributes. He was really poor defensively in that Bradford game and we'll need to see a reaction from him if he starts Saturday for sure. This is a lad who has played regularly in League One before and not looked out of place and then lost his spot because the new manager didn't like his attitude. If he's matured he should be easily good enough for us at the minute. If he's still the sort to throw his toys out of the pram we will soon find out and he'll end up back in non-league.

I honestly think Taft might be the best of the bunch in terms of this season, if not talent. He's got a nasty streak to him and can use the ball. For me his issues (and there have been a few) are down to the need for more games and more work. I saw enough of him bullying Crewe players to make me think he can provide something we need. He has won promotion in a footballing side before.

We'll know a lot more 10-15 games in.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 am

Interesting that this morning’s big BN piece is about Greenidge, whom Evatt says is “available on Saturday”. Doesn’t mean he’s in, but it puts pressure on Taft - and the others.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... -brom-man/

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:42 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 am
Interesting that this morning’s big BN piece is about Greenidge, whom Evatt says is “available on Saturday”. Doesn’t mean he’s in, but it puts pressure on Taft - and the others.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... -brom-man/
Funny one Greenidge, isn't he? You'd think if he was any good then a rapid, 6'7" Arsenal youth graduate would have played a full season somewhere by 24. Another with clear attributes that could make him a top league player, like Santos, but with zero pedigree compared to Santos' tarnished record.

I watched some Sogndal stuff online and he looked a shambles out at left back. Still, I live in hope. Big, fast centre backs are a huge bonus in any division and if he turned out to be genuinely talented he could come up the leagues with us at 24.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:18 am

You get the feeling, of all the suspected undervalued/headroom/potential/Moneyball signings (as opposed to presumably safer bets like Doyle, Fonz, Sarce and Crawford and more mid-ranking safe-but-unchased “League Two” players like Taft and Jones), Greenidge is the one where they think they’ve found a diamond in the rough. A diamond that might shine for us, help us go up (as you say) and maybe be sold at a cockle-warming profit. From what I hear, both Evatt and Phoenix are excited about him - and maybe left centre-back would suit him better than a back four.

I hope they’re right. For one thing, it would be good to have three left-footed options - if anything we are better covered on that side, given Santos’s lapses, Baptiste’s age and Brockbank’s inexperience. Still plenty of time yet.

It’s also possible - because as you say, he’s hardly been a regular anywhere - that he, and to some extent Santos, may require man-management. Here’s where chalkboard coaches really earn their badges: dealing with humans rather than football bots.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by The_Gun » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:47 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:42 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 am
Interesting that this morning’s big BN piece is about Greenidge, whom Evatt says is “available on Saturday”. Doesn’t mean he’s in, but it puts pressure on Taft - and the others.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... -brom-man/
Funny one Greenidge, isn't he? You'd think if he was any good then a rapid, 6'7" Arsenal youth graduate would have played a full season somewhere by 24. Another with clear attributes that could make him a top league player, like Santos, but with zero pedigree compared to Santos' tarnished record.

I watched some Sogndal stuff online and he looked a shambles out at left back. Still, I live in hope. Big, fast centre backs are a huge bonus in any division and if he turned out to be genuinely talented he could come up the leagues with us at 24.
This kind of situation is relatively common in football though, right? A lot of players require the right environment to thrive, or take longer for the mental aspects of the game to click for them. Jamie Vardy not playing league football until he was 25 being the most famous recent example, and his speed and finishing ability won't have appeared out of nowhere in his mid-20s.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:00 am

I wouldn’t say it’s relatively common - indeed, the notability of high-profile outliers like Vardy (and in a previous generation the similar Ian Wright) rest upon their exceptionalism. Certainly in this age of huge top-level academies sifting hundreds of young hopefuls, there aren’t many current PL players who were in non-league at 24.

But then again we ain’t PL... and the very fact that academies throw out dozens of potentially decent players every summer mean that some who don’t quite make the cut might be perfectly serviceable at a lower level. The trick there is not about ability, but aptitude: do they redouble their efforts at a lower level, like Sarcevic did after leaving City, or do they drift ever downwards as a thousand others have? As I say a lot of that is not about how well you can kick a ball but how mentally strong you are - particularly those picked up by Big Glamorous Clubs at primary school and honed for a decade toward fame and fortune then summarily ejected. It’s hard to then turn up at Third Division Rangers, get changed in a Portakabin and prove yourself against gap-toothed hard bastards - and equally, the gaffer has to judge what’s between your ears.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by The_Gun » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:17 am

Vardy is one of the most extreme examples, but I stand by my point that for a good number players the stars need to align in terms of club, system, coach etc before they are seen to the best of their abilities.

I was responding to 'Bok saying that if Greenidge were any good his height and speed should have meant he would have already succeeded somewhere, but isn't the whole point of the 'Moneyball' philosophy to identify these kind of players? If the market for players were perfectly efficient then there would be no chance of this kind of system working, and indeed the success of what we're looking to do is predicated on these types of scenarios being relatively common.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:36 am

Indeed. And as I say, physical or even technical attributes aren’t any use without the right mindset. Look at Ravel Morrison. Not that I’m saying Greenidge hasn’t got the right attitude; maybe he just needs the right coach.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:44 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:44 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:55 pm
It all looks a bit "tallest dwarf" from the first two showings for me in those central defence positions. I'm not seeing any shoo ins from the two games I've seen. Certainly there as much as case for Taft playing as the others. Santos has been worst of the lot for me.
I don't disagree, but I suppose what I'd say is that in these early stages you look at the qualities in the players and try to see what they could be like in a drilled unit. I haven't watched any of them and thought "you're never a league player", I've just thought they needed more work on the training pitch and a bollocking.

Santos is probably the one with the biggest natural advantages. His size, his power and his technical attributes. He was really poor defensively in that Bradford game and we'll need to see a reaction from him if he starts Saturday for sure. This is a lad who has played regularly in League One before and not looked out of place and then lost his spot because the new manager didn't like his attitude. If he's matured he should be easily good enough for us at the minute. If he's still the sort to throw his toys out of the pram we will soon find out and he'll end up back in non-league.

I honestly think Taft might be the best of the bunch in terms of this season, if not talent. He's got a nasty streak to him and can use the ball. For me his issues (and there have been a few) are down to the need for more games and more work. I saw enough of him bullying Crewe players to make me think he can provide something we need. He has won promotion in a footballing side before.

We'll know a lot more 10-15 games in.
Maybe we're glass half full and glass half empty in relation to Santos. I saw none of natural advantages, technical abilities or league one about him. Nothing. It wouldn't be right to consign him to the bin forever on the basis of one performance in what is a team that's forming, so I won't, but I'm going to judge (like we all do) on what I see in front of me, rather than anything else (such as natural advantages) - if I see him use them, then fair play. Just having them isn't enough.

As you were watching Sarcevic's actions on Tuesday, there were a number of similar type events in relation to Santos on Saturday. Couple of occasions where the ball was passed to him slightly awry and he just didn't bother his arse, preferring instead to glare at the passer (which I'm ok with AFTER the situation has been recovered).

In just 2 mins 10 on the highlights reel, he heads it straight to them in MF just before their first goal. They're through on goal and should score. He's stood next to Novak in the build up to the second. No doubt he's Santos man. Somehow he doesn't spot Novak has got goal-side and a two yard start - he's never catching him from that point. Second goal, acknowledging that half our team shouldn't have run past the crosser and into vacant spaces, again Novak is in front of him. He runs from in front to round the back of Santos all within half a fcking yard of him, then drops 4-5 yards of the back for his free header, with Santos stood in the middle of nowhere. It was comical. Not even a hint of natural advantages at least giving Novak a bit of a dig to let him know you're around :-)

As you say judgement will come later rather than now, but Santos has a long way to step up for me (I hope he does and the rest of the defence too), but some of the things I saw on Saturday were around what I saw of his capability and attitude rather than "drill".

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:10 am

Yeah Santos was frustrating because there were times I was sure he could get to the ball but he just didn't seem bothered...perhaps though its nerves. I think Sarcevic is trying too hard. Can't say I'm enamoured with Taft - I think there are multiple times he's just let runners ghost past him which is never a good sign. But perhaps again its nerves and acclimatising to a new situation and system. I'd not write any individual off in the medium term but in the short term we've got to defend better and you can wonder whether some are capable of turning round performances in the space of a few days.

I also think the midfield needs some work and it might be that we have to leave out one of the more attacking types to get Comley involved.

Also to add we have criticised the back 3 and rightly so, but the Crewe game, Doyle was provided with two absolute sitters and missed both. So for a striker who does nothing outside the box really - that's not great and its probably as much of a reason as to why we lost as the back three. Sharpen up both ends of the pitch and we'll be getting those wins.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:25 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:10 am
Yeah Santos was frustrating because there were times I was sure he could get to the ball but he just didn't seem bothered...perhaps though its nerves. I think Sarcevic is trying too hard. Can't say I'm enamoured with Taft - I think there are multiple times he's just let runners ghost past him which is never a good sign. But perhaps again its nerves and acclimatising to a new situation and system. I'd not write any individual off in the medium term but in the short term we've got to defend better and you can wonder whether some are capable of turning round performances in the space of a few days.

I also think the midfield needs some work and it might be that we have to leave out one of the more attacking types to get Comley involved.

Also to add we have criticised the back 3 and rightly so, but the Crewe game, Doyle was provided with two absolute sitters and missed both. So for a striker who does nothing outside the box really - that's not great and its probably as much of a reason as to why we lost as the back three. Sharpen up both ends of the pitch and we'll be getting those wins.
Yes regarding Doyle - if we knew nothing about him or that he was the "star signing", you might be tempted to try Miller and Delfouneso based on what we've seen. He didn't get much service v Bradford really, but two very good chances v Crewe.

I think there's a few reckon White/Comley/Crawford looks a better balance on current showing, than Sarceivic/White/Comley or Sarceivic/White/Crawford. Can't see us dropping the skipper though. Probably couldn't leave White out on first two games - so it would be between Comley and Crawford, which is a shame because Sarceivic has looked most off the pace of the four of them.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:27 am

The_Gun wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:17 am
Vardy is one of the most extreme examples, but I stand by my point that for a good number players the stars need to align in terms of club, system, coach etc before they are seen to the best of their abilities.

I was responding to 'Bok saying that if Greenidge were any good his height and speed should have meant he would have already succeeded somewhere, but isn't the whole point of the 'Moneyball' philosophy to identify these kind of players? If the market for players were perfectly efficient then there would be no chance of this kind of system working, and indeed the success of what we're looking to do is predicated on these types of scenarios being relatively common.
I agree. Vardy is probably a slight outlier in that he got released at 16 and then took nearly a decade to get back, but off the top of my head, Charlie Austin, Rickie Lambert, Michail Antonio, Yannick Bolasie, Chris Smalling are all players who've played permanent non-League football and made it back to play Prem football working the last five years.

Plenty more don't drop that far but drop to our level and work their way back up.

And we don't need all of ours to end up being good enough to play in the Prem.
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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:52 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:17 am
I was responding to 'Bok saying that if Greenidge were any good his height and speed should have meant he would have already succeeded somewhere, but isn't the whole point of the 'Moneyball' philosophy to identify these kind of players?
Yeah, the idea is you can spot value where others have missed it and then that your coaching staff is good enough to polish the players up. I've no objection to it, quite the opposite; I rather like the idea. My point was rather that Greenidge can be seen two ways. You've a lad with a good footballing education, great physical characteristics and an obvious desire to succeed in the sport. He's not sat on his hands when he's fallen away, he's gone into non-league and then taken himself off to Norway to try and make a career for himself.

The question is why, when he seems to have so much going for him, has he struggled up until now? That's why he's an interesting case. I have very little faith in a lot of British scouts and youth coaches, as I think they look for the wrong attributes in young players. Greenidge has all those attributes though (AND got picked up by a big club) so I'm left with loads of questions about him as a player and I'm excited to see what he can do.

Like I said above, he looked bloody awful in a couple of games I watched online - but if Evatt is excited AFTER having had him in training then I'm even more interested to see how (and who) the lad is. Like IE said, he's ungainly, and it could just be that he has struggled to deal with his body development until now.

We have different kinds of moneyball signings in this squad:

Hickman and Santos are players who have been assessed as league-quality players by other clubs, but whose attitudes have seen them binned off.
Greenidge and Gordon are rough diamonds types.
Mascoll and Comley (and just possibly Jones) are players who are potentially undervalued because what they offer doesn't fit naturally into other systems.

For those of us who like the analysis side of the game, it's not going to be dull at all with this lot in charge. Hopefully covid doesn't shut another season down.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by nicholaldo » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:54 pm

I'd be delighted if we could find another Craig Dawson.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:02 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:54 pm
I'd be delighted if we could find another Craig Dawson.
Amen.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by GhostoftheBok » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:09 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:54 pm
I'd be delighted if we could find another Craig Dawson.
A back three of Chris Smalling, Ashley Williams and Craig Dawson would probably be alright for this level, yeah.

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Re: Wrecking Crewe - In search of a Tin Pot to piss in. Crewe Alex (H). FL Trophy 7PM 8/9/2020

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:14 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:25 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:10 am
Yeah Santos was frustrating because there were times I was sure he could get to the ball but he just didn't seem bothered...perhaps though its nerves. I think Sarcevic is trying too hard. Can't say I'm enamoured with Taft - I think there are multiple times he's just let runners ghost past him which is never a good sign. But perhaps again its nerves and acclimatising to a new situation and system. I'd not write any individual off in the medium term but in the short term we've got to defend better and you can wonder whether some are capable of turning round performances in the space of a few days.

I also think the midfield needs some work and it might be that we have to leave out one of the more attacking types to get Comley involved.

Also to add we have criticised the back 3 and rightly so, but the Crewe game, Doyle was provided with two absolute sitters and missed both. So for a striker who does nothing outside the box really - that's not great and its probably as much of a reason as to why we lost as the back three. Sharpen up both ends of the pitch and we'll be getting those wins.
Yes regarding Doyle - if we knew nothing about him or that he was the "star signing", you might be tempted to try Miller and Delfouneso based on what we've seen. He didn't get much service v Bradford really, but two very good chances v Crewe.

I think there's a few reckon White/Comley/Crawford looks a better balance on current showing, than Sarceivic/White/Comley or Sarceivic/White/Crawford. Can't see us dropping the skipper though. Probably couldn't leave White out on first two games - so it would be between Comley and Crawford, which is a shame because Sarceivic has looked most off the pace of the four of them.
Delfounseso has done nowt wrong but Miller just looked like he would support Doyle better - he dropped into spaces and looked more likely to keep the ball. Perhaps it was a one off and perhaps it wouldn't work so well from the start - fresh legs coming on up front can often deceive, especially early in a season. And he's tiny and probably means no out ball over the top at all.

Sarcevic has looked the most disappointing in midfield so far, I suspect he's trying too hard - and for me it would be Crawford, Comley and White. Easily. And whilst I get about not dropping the skipper - there is also the fact that our set pieces have been pretty odd apart from the ones Crawford has whipped in...and frankly I've not had much confidence in the other 'routines' which whilst inventive haven't produced all that much.

Doyle obviously needs to score and won't contribute much beyond that but if we don't play him he definitely won't score. My guess is he will start until (if) it becomes a major personal confidence issue for him.

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