Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:48 pm

Also, and this will apparently be controversial for some on here. Santos was one of our better players yesterday.

When we moved Santos to the middle of the three he suddenly looked a league player. When we went to a 4 he looked assured for most of it. As has been said, they sat back more by the time we switched formation; but I think both he and Baps looked better when they switched positions in the three.

They made the switch because Baps was being bullied by their centre forward, but I wonder if that might have given the boss food for thought.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:54 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:46 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:43 pm
I'd be interested to see the tackles and interceptions for those mids.
Have a play at https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/14868 ... rest-Green

The query has also been posed to @BWFC Analysis but they're having the same iFollow farrago
Cheers. That backed up my feeling in the game that Comley and White were not playing aggressively enough. According to Who Scored neither attempted a tackle all game. That shocked me, but they did both seem to lack intensity.

Part of that will be that FGR intelligently avoided that congested part of the pitch and attacked the space, but there were times when I was (very calmly) yelling at my laptop for them to put a foot in.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:27 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:48 pm
Also, and this will apparently be controversial for some on here. Santos was one of our better players yesterday.

When we moved Santos to the middle of the three he suddenly looked a league player. When we went to a 4 he looked assured for most of it. As has been said, they sat back more by the time we switched formation; but I think both he and Baps looked better when they switched positions in the three.

They made the switch because Baps was being bullied by their centre forward, but I wonder if that might have given the boss food for thought.
Certainly not the worst yesterday and it improved for both when they switched - agreed.

But the problem with yesterday is that I don't necessarily think BWFCI's "all scored fcuk all" ratings were that far out either. You could argue that they were all 3/4's rather than 1's but they were pretty closely grouped which ever way you look at it. All the team playing at Santos level, from what I've seen so far, will get us results like yesterday all season long.

Crellin and Delfouneso aside (and Fonz was somewhat tempered by "Service"), they were all pretty shit.

Sarceivic probably more shit than most. For me Gordon, Greenidge and Baptiste weren't good, White and Comley did a Penn and Teller and both disappeared. Doyle, be it service related or not also had a poor game. That leaves Santos and Jones fighting for 3rd and 4th best for me, whilst still being shite on the day.

I certainly didn't have him down as "league player" on yesterday's showing, but neither did I have some of the players further down the list (and some of them, we know are league players).

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:51 pm

Bit more number-crunching. Tutte’s 88.5% passing accuracy was handy but too little too late and too deep. Of the starting outfielders, White was top with 81.5%, then Baptiste with 79.7% and Gordon with 78.1%; Jones was worst with 55.2% – meaning he gave the ball away almost as much as he retained it.
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Speaking of which, Baptiste played 12 long balls (25+ yards), of which only 5 were accurate; Santos was similar with 4 out of 10. Again that’s less than half, perhaps indicating either overeagerness or inaccuracy; either way, those two were much better than Greenidge’s woeful 1 out of 6 (and Jones’s 0 from 5). By comparison, most midfielders were tidy with their long passes - Tutte and White 2 from 3, Crawford 2 from 2 - although Comley was 0 was 3. He also recorded 69.6% pass accuracy, way below the division-topping average he posted last season.

With the main “recycling” midfielder, the right wingback and the centre-backs regularly giving the ball away, no wonder we didn’t penetrate. Meanwhile, on the left wing, Gordon was timid, with half of his passes going backwards rather than forwards.
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Of Jones’s 44 passes, something like 25 went forward v 19 backward – only marginally better but notable over the course of the game.
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But then again, in any formation - and particularly one as inter-related as Evattball - it’s not just about individual components, because they can all be let down by others. As Gordon looked inside him, he saw a defence giving the ball away, a midfield hiding and a front line isolated. No wonder, perhaps, he took the safer option. The gaffer's job now is to give him the guts and the guile to use his ability – or find someone else who can.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:06 pm

For me the wing back issue is pretty simple. You usually need at least two passing options for the man in possession if you are playing short. It's the classic interconnecting triangles bit. On the wing, it's usually three. One behind, one lateral option and one runner in front of them. There was one instance with Gordon early in the game where it worked perfectly. Gordon got it wide, Greenidge dropped in behind, Comley showed inside for him and Sarc ran beyond. I thought, "This might be okay".....it was the last time all game I saw it done right.

There are personnel issues for us. Players need to improve. But, as you say, players won't play well if they aren't give support by teammates. I watched Spurs today and it reminded me of our performance. As Jose put it, "lazy press and other things." Spurs failed to make the sprints needed for their system work.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by irie Cee Bee » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:30 am

I thought our defense did better on Saturday compared with the previous 2 games that I saw. They were not perfect but tried to do the right things focusing more on defending this time around, which unfortunately kills IE system which requires them to carry the ball forward into the opponents half. Crellin is our best player so far by a mile. Our central midfield is a major problem for both our forwards and defenders at the moment. Not Creating, not showing for the ball, not defending and giving the ball away. They seem to have lost confidence. White and Comley are too similar types young players, and don't compliment each other playing together. Our Captain is MIA. He is important to the team's success and need to get himself together. He is our leader.

My biggest let down however was not the loss as we will lose games during the season, but IE's comments about "Losing mentality" at the club when he has everything new and we all supporting him and wanting success was a kick in the stomach. It felt like KH's Rochdale outburst. Has me now very nervous whether he has what it takes to lead a club our size. His first mistake so I will forgive him and hope he was just trying to take the pressure off the players. Future performances will tell.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by DJBlu » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:48 am

It's true though. It's not just the team. It's the whole club. From fans through to grounds keepers. It's hard to kick the habit, look at the responses to the game at the weekend. Almost like ffs here we go again. Same old shit etc.

No such thing as a fresh start as the manager will always inherit the fans.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 am

I mean I didn't mind anything Evatt said even about losing mentality - but I'm not sure logically it makes any sense. Its a brand new team, and management setup - the fans aren't even in the ground. So I suspect what he really means is 'the pressure of playing for a big club with expectations at this level'. And that's a worry because we need big and strong heads and hearts here and if the players already are struggling with that side....imagine what they'd be like if fans are ever allowed back in?

As I reflect I do think the defeat has far less to do with systems and styles and far more to do with 11 of their players fighting tooth and nail to get a result and 11 of our lot, freezing and simply not performing. The workrate wasn't there, the tempo wasn't there....you won't win many games or any if you aren't prepared to put in a full throttle performance. I think some basics about closing down, pressing, running off the ball need to be hammered home because regardless of the system or style or tactic - you have to match the opposition first and foremost. And we didn't do that. It could be one of a few things - squad not gelling or having that team spirit to work for each other, over-confidence thinking we can just stroll it, lack of confidence and nervy performances.

And I'd say its almost certainly a combination of the first and last - I can't imagine the 'billy big bollocks' has set in after 4 defeats in a row going into the first league game of the season. So I suspect its players not yet comfortable with their surroundings or the pressure, or their teammates and it will need addressing quickly. Because pressure only ramps up with every game now - end of the day its 11 games without a win stretching back to last season and not many wins before that either. Fans need patience but we know many won't have any. I think a lot of careful work needed and I suspect less of it is about tactical stuff and more is about getting these players to not overthink it and put in a proper shift.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:39 am

Completely understand where you’re coming from BWFCi and I agree we need more effort. However, some of that *has* to be tactical - especially in Evattball. They can’t just sprint hither and yon for 90 minutes; when we have possession they need to choose when to make their off-the-ball runs, and when we don’t they need to have the nous to hurtle back into the right positions to regain it, as per the gaffer’s Guardiola-inspired “six seconds” rule.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:11 am

I haven't seen anything beyond highlights yet so could be total nonsense but...

ISTR DSB maybe did or linked to some analysis that suggested L2 was a lot more possession based than people assumed. It's not La Liga, but it also isn't four four f*cking two hoik it into the channels and chase.

I wonder if that isn't the case the tier below. Because one thing that occurred to me is that 352 doesnt to me lend itself to a high pressing game as Evatt has talked about playing. Pretty much every other major system involves two wide players on either side, and can, roughly be divided up into 1v1 battles (albeit ending up with a 2v1 at the back and a 1v2 at the front). It's very very difficult to me to see how you can go and press without the forwards splitting which he sees he doesn't want to do with Doyle.

In the Conf simply putting pressure on might have sped up a long ball that was coming anyway but before they were set so you get the ball back more easily. In L2 (some) teams wanting to play could leave to chasing shadows.
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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:54 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:39 am
Completely understand where you’re coming from BWFCi and I agree we need more effort. However, some of that *has* to be tactical - especially in Evattball. They can’t just sprint hither and yon for 90 minutes; when we have possession they need to choose when to make their off-the-ball runs, and when we don’t they need to have the nous to hurtle back into the right positions to regain it, as per the gaffer’s Guardiola-inspired “six seconds” rule.
Yep there may be elements of hesitation because of the system and setup too. But I think as of yet across the three competitive fixtures at no point have we played what I'd call, committed flat out football - which generally is what is required of you to win games. It might be down to unfamiliarity with tactics but I don't think its all that. I think there is pressure and general unfamiliarity with the players and setup too. Its slightly worrying in that we've had a pre season with these lads and a set way to play yet still now they don't seem comfortable (and supposedly they were role specific picks).

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:52 pm

With the caveat that I am no L2 expert over the years, but have made the effort to familiarise myself with the division for the last 12 months because it was obvious where we are going - yes, L2 teams play more "football" than people might expect. There's also a lot more variety in formations and tactics than some credit the league with. Three or five at the back was common last season, as was a more Pochettino style with 4 forwards. Again, I'm no seasoned expert at this level.

I think what we've seen in the past three games is that this 3-at-the-back system can press effectively. The problem has been the players not getting the press right and teams playing through it. As DSB said, we use a more Pepish pressing style - we press and then drop back into a shape that should be hard to play through.

The issue remains a lack of intent. There's no point jogging up to someone, you have to sprint. There's no point sprinting to someone and not then challenging for the ball. There's not point watching your mate sprint and not covering your man. At different times we are making different errors, which at least says they know what should be happening - they're just not all getting it right at the same time. That should come over time.

The next issue is the lack of awareness of what situations are dangerous. I think this is much more difficult to fix and is a reflection of the waters we are fishing in. For me, the players don't recognise dangerous situations until the opposition are already sprinting. By that point we are dead. We are stood there happy and comfortable and then a couple of their players start sprinting and you can see the "oh shit!" reaction.

There were examples of that vs Forest Green - but the game still isn't available to me to rewatch so I can't really comment properly.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:08 pm

One thing I think generally is that often a lack of intensity and apparent effort comes from uncertainty. When we're set up 3-5-2 do we know how to press eg their fullbacks.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:21 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:08 pm
One thing I think generally is that often a lack of intensity and apparent effort comes from uncertainty.
There is absolutely a lack of familiarity and confidence. That's plain, you are right.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by irie Cee Bee » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:14 pm

Never saw the high "pressing" in the FGR game, so if that's the plan, the players did not read the script. Apart from Delf and Gordon, I cant remember seeing any player doing it consistently. When FGR took over the game, they had all the time in the world to pick their passes and bully us off the ball the few times a weak tackle half-harted tackle came in.

Something is wrong. Hope IE can get his message across on the field.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:00 pm

Some fair points made on the BWFC Analysis Twitter account.

As I know not all our members can see Twitter, I've repasted the words below the tweets and a couple of stills to illustrate. Can't help you with the videos though (DJBlu, how does one work the "vid" button on here?)
CODE: SELECT ALL CODE: SELECT ALL CODE: SELECT ALL ===========
I feel this 1:15 clip summed us up v FGR. We saw plenty of the ball during the game (56% to be exact) but we were unwilling to try anything with it. Of the 19 passes in the clip, 12 of them were [backward] or [sideways] and of the 7 [forward] passes, 1 was from GK to CB and 2 were aimless punts

Granted, there will be recycling of the ball w/ this style of play but someone needs to take control in MID. I don’t know whether it’s a confidence thing or lack of playing time together but there must more movement from MID and more willingness to attempt a composed fwd pass
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Here White does make the run and wants the ball back but Comley seems set on going backwards even before he’s received the ball. If he keeps his head up and plays it into the space, it takes 3 FGR players out the game and we have attacking momentum
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Santos does well to beat his marker and he breaks into the space behind their midfield - the purpose of the attacking CB has worked to perfection and we now have an overload on the right. The FGR CB is drawn out of position as he has to press Santos, freeing up Jones as the FGR LB has to come across to mark Doyle. Unfortunately Santos plays the wrong ball and the attack breaks down - Jones is left visibly frustrated as he knew he was well placed to deliver a dangerous ball
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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:59 pm

I think you also see the difference between league and non-league players for FGR there, too. In the clip where Jones is the spare man in an overload the "natural" reaction of the FGR defender challenging Santos might be to face him up, but the defender recognises where the dangerous pass is. He makes a feint move to the inside of Santos to encourage the pass and then makes his challenge to the outside and wins the ball. Obviously if Santos gets his touch right before that he can make the pass without interference, but it does show the tactical awareness of players at this level. Our general play will have to be very tight in order to play this way consistently in the Leagues.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:44 pm

More from BWFC Analysis, who carefully logs the videos so people like me don't have to.
Open play pass and shot maps of the 5 midfielders who featured against FGR. Blue = successful passes, red = unsuccessful, purple = shots. As you can see there were minimal successful forward passes. Tom White had an especially hard time influencing the middle of the park...
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....which is a credit to Forest Green's gameplan - they did a brilliant job of pressing him, forcing him to go backwards on the majority of occasions he was in possession. Here’s just one example but there were countless others to choose from
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Sarcevic's absence is worrying considering he might be dropped deeper this weekend... he spent 34 minutes there v FGR and, well, didn't exactly turn the pitch blue.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:45 pm

bit more from BWFC Analysis, on Gethin Jones in the final third over the three games.
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EiMiLx-WAAYfkM7.png
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Blue dashed lines = successful cross
Red dashed lines = unsuccessful cross
Red line = lost possession
Blue line = progressive pass
Grey line = back/side pass

Clipreel: CODE: SELECT ALL

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by TonyDomingos » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:46 pm

Fascinating stuff all of the above. There was me thinking we'd lost 1-0 because our star striker fluffed his chance early on and they scored a slightly luck goal that wouldn't have gone in had it been half an inch the other way. :P
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