Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:58 pm

On the plus side, this wet-eared goalkeeper looks the least of our problems...

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:59 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:57 pm
We've not hired another Dougie Freedman have we?

Feckin awful. Santos, Jones, Comley and Gordon introduced new levels of shiteness
Sarcevic and Doyle too. Absolute dire. Meant to be good at this level. Both look dreadful. Sarcevic looks like he wants to hide from the ball.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:02 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:59 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:57 pm
We've not hired another Dougie Freedman have we?

Feckin awful. Santos, Jones, Comley and Gordon introduced new levels of shiteness
Sarcevic and Doyle too. Absolute dire. Meant to be good at this level. Both look dreadful. Sarcevic looks like he wants to hide from the ball.
Aye - mentally picking the next XI, albeit in the kneejerk postmatch emotions, I'm going "Nope... nope... nope..."

Doyle hasn't annoyed me yet. Sarce has worried me. Goal or not, he's had three bad games now. Is the guy in the armband dragging us under?

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:02 pm

Look on the bright side. Our odds for promotion should move out a few points...That was awful. The glimpses we saw in first two games largely disappeared. How Crawford didn't start is beyond me. He wasn't excellent when he came on, but head and shoulders better than what had gone before.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:02 pm

Nobody had a good game, except maybe Crellin given what was in front of him.

I can handle a bad game, that's fine. The issue is what we are seeing happen with the supposed "leaders" and where we are compared to where the manager claims we are.

We are not "almost there" and we are not "already ready to win plenty of games."

Sarcevic, in terms of what is going on on the pitch, offers nothing as captain at the minute. He's not leading by example, he's not talking and he's not organising. Baptiste at the back looks on the ragged edge at all times and was kicking the ball away and bitching at other players when he was making errors. That has to change and it's something the manager needs to have a quick word about with both men. They are making the players around them worse, not better.

Doyle and Delf both look top pros. Neither had a great game today, but at no stage did they show anything other than work rate and positivity. They tried to drag us forward and actually talked to the lads around them. Poor? Yeah. Not an issue though.

We all saw how bad we were at the back again, but I still say there's way more to that than just poor personnel (although that is looking an issue). We are not a team right now. We're 11 lads on a pitch.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 pm

Do you get a fiver back if you promise not to watch the fcuking highlights?

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:08 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 pm
Do you get a fiver back if you promise not to watch the fcuking highlights?
Should get £2.50 back because you could only watch half the pitch at a time in the first half.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:10 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:02 pm
Nobody had a good game, except maybe Crellin given what was in front of him.

I can handle a bad game, that's fine. The issue is what we are seeing happen with the supposed "leaders" and where we are compared to where the manager claims we are.

We are not "almost there" and we are not "already ready to win plenty of games."

Sarcevic, in terms of what is going on on the pitch, offers nothing as captain at the minute. He's not leading by example, he's not talking and he's not organising. Baptiste at the back looks on the ragged edge at all times and was kicking the ball away and bitching at other players when he was making errors. That has to change and it's something the manager needs to have a quick word about with both men. They are making the players around them worse, not better.

Doyle and Delf both look top pros. Neither had a great game today, but at no stage did they show anything other than work rate and positivity. They tried to drag us forward and actually talked to the lads around them. Poor? Yeah. Not an issue though.

We all saw how bad we were at the back again, but I still say there's way more to that than just poor personnel (although that is looking an issue). We are not a team right now. We're 11 lads on a pitch.
That’s what it looks like. 11 strangers. It’s worrying because each game we’ve got worse. Hell of a run though I suspect our stats for wins in competitive matches in last 100 will be unbeatable.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:12 pm

Quick thoughts, per player.

Crellin: Must be wondering what he's joined. Beaten by another good goal.
Santos: Makes curious decisions. Needs to power on with the ball.
Baptiste: Trying to hold the clownshow together, but he's not yet a convincing ringmaster.
Greenidge: Overhyped and under-prepared. We'd have been better with Taft.
Jones: May be more solid than Hickman but this was stolid. Get the kid in.
White: Notably sloppier than in the previous two games. May wonder why nobody wants the ball off him.
Comley: Two bad games out of three. It's Colchester next, but he shouldn't be in the team.
Sarcevic: AWOL. I'm struggling to understand what he does. Not so much a Manchester Messi as a Poundland Nolan.
Gordon: Woefully bereft of confidence, or perhaps talent. Time to try Mascoll.
Delfouneso: Willing runner, like David Reeves. Seems savvy. Hard to hate.
Doyle: Doesn't look like a 28-goal striker. That might not be entirely his fault.
Crawford: May not have the legs to last a full game yet, but isn't as potent from the bench. Should start.
Tutte: Neat and tidy, tried to find team-mates. Should start with White behind Crawford.
Amoateng: A kid who wouldn't have played had Miller been available.
Evatt: Needs to turn fine words into coached competence. Really needs this full week on the training ground.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:15 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:10 pm
I suspect our stats for wins in competitive matches in last 100 will be unbeatable.
Take it back further. Last five seasons plus this game, we've now played 218, W53 (one in four), D58, L108 (one in two), scored 204 (less than a goal per game), conceded 336 (more than 1.5 per game) and get 205 points (fewer than one per game). And - get this - that included a promotion.

For the record, the last three full seasons:
P126 W23 D32 L71 F95 A218 Pts89

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:18 pm

Dreadful, and there should be no hiding away from it. It was inevitable the system Evatt wants to implement would take time to bear fruit, but we're doing nothing right. No dominating of possession, yet no pressing to speak of either. No urgency or zip about our play, precious little sign of the wing-backs getting in behind the opposition defensive line, zero composure, easily outmuscled, etc., etc.

It was right that he changed our shape deep into the second half, and encouraging that he recognised the necessity of doing so. It's how I would set us up for at least the time being. A more traditional back four needn't have to mean we play any less expansively or cede the majority of posession, but would I think give us a greater sense of control. Tutte looked reassuringly competent in his brief appearance, exhibiting decent technique and a willingness to drop deep and collect it on the half-turn. Him doing that would allow our two centre-backs to play a more simple, and hopefully more solid, defensive role.

For me, I'd probably play a midfield three of Tutte, White and Crawford for now. It means dropping the captain, but I think that call needs to be made. Beyond that, I think I want us to play a starting eleven with as much league football experience as possible, mixed with the more reliable of the ones with less (perhaps a spine of Baptiste and Delaney as the centre-back pairing, Tutte and White in midfield and Crawford just ahead, Delfouneso and Doyle upfront). Just to settle us down more than anything.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:21 pm

It's hard to see how he can fashion a competent defence out of such apparent individual shiteness, but I'd start by dropping both wing backs. And put Taft back in for either Santos or Greenidge, who was every bit as shit as I expected him to be. And Taft hasn't looked even remotely good either.
...

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:32 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:21 pm
It's hard to see how he can fashion a competent defence out of such apparent individual shiteness, but I'd start by dropping both wing backs. And put Taft back in for either Santos or Greenidge, who was every bit as shit as I expected him to be. And Taft hasn't looked even remotely good either.

Every one of our senior centre-backs bar Edwards have now played at least once, and none of them have done much to suggest we should have much confidence in them. For that reason, I think we have to play as few as we can. I'd go with Baptiste and Delaney for the foreseeable future and allow them to try and develop an understanding.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:39 pm

That Gordon is a non league player now. I know he’s not the biggest problem but he’s a problem. We can’t carry non league players if we want to win games.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:52 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:18 pm
It was right that he changed our shape deep into the second half, and encouraging that he recognised the necessity of doing so. It's how I would set us up for at least the time being. A more traditional back four needn't have to mean we play any less expansively or cede the majority of posession, but would I think give us a greater sense of control. Tutte looked reassuringly competent in his brief appearance, exhibiting decent technique and a willingness to drop deep and collect it on the half-turn. Him doing that would allow our two centre-backs to play a more simple, and hopefully more solid, defensive role.

For me, I'd probably play a midfield three of Tutte, White and Crawford for now. It means dropping the captain, but I think that call needs to be made. Beyond that, I think I want us to play a starting eleven with as much league football experience as possible, mixed with the more reliable of the ones with less (perhaps a spine of Baptiste and Delaney as the centre-back pairing, Tutte and White in midfield and Crawford just ahead, Delfouneso and Doyle upfront). Just to settle us down more than anything.
Good to see your confidence, Nicko - you've picked a back four, a midfield three and a front two... :D

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:52 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:18 pm
It was right that he changed our shape deep into the second half, and encouraging that he recognised the necessity of doing so. It's how I would set us up for at least the time being. A more traditional back four needn't have to mean we play any less expansively or cede the majority of posession, but would I think give us a greater sense of control. Tutte looked reassuringly competent in his brief appearance, exhibiting decent technique and a willingness to drop deep and collect it on the half-turn. Him doing that would allow our two centre-backs to play a more simple, and hopefully more solid, defensive role.

For me, I'd probably play a midfield three of Tutte, White and Crawford for now. It means dropping the captain, but I think that call needs to be made. Beyond that, I think I want us to play a starting eleven with as much league football experience as possible, mixed with the more reliable of the ones with less (perhaps a spine of Baptiste and Delaney as the centre-back pairing, Tutte and White in midfield and Crawford just ahead, Delfouneso and Doyle upfront). Just to settle us down more than anything.
Good to see your confidence, Nicko - you've picked a back four, a midfield three and a front two... :D

It's the next evolutionary step: disrupt the opposition's shape by giving them fewer players to mark! :wink:

In my defence, that was just my spine. I'm not sure who I'd have in the remaining positions, or what formation to go with, although I'd probably have Hickman in too.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm

Honestly, Nicko, I think you may be disappointed. I don't think Evatt had a moment of tactical clarity and change the shape, I think he wanted to lob another striker on and that meant going 4-3-3. If it had been 0-0 we'd not have done it. It was the same as when Steve McClaren used to have 5 strikers on the pitch for Boro when they were chasing games in the UEFA Cup...except they actually attacked with purpose. We changed our shape and then hoofed it to Doyle and Delf.

Also a shout-out to the commentators, who wanted us to both "go route one" AND "get our passing going and string a few together" and who thought we should push up to help Doyle AND that our high line was a big problem for us and we should drop deep.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:10 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:39 pm
That Gordon is a non league player now. I know he’s not the biggest problem but he’s a problem. We can’t carry non league players if we want to win games.
He isn't the biggest problem, but a lack of penetration from our wide men is a significant issue. Gordon seems terrified to take people on, while Jones is more of a right-back. That means that we get little penetration down either side, which is a key part of the wingback system. Meanwhile the (central) midfielders often aren't showing for the ball, so we're not turning defence into attack. Instead, the wide centre-backs are asked to carry the ball – which is fine and all part of the expansive system, but again they lack confidence so they're reverting to punting it forward. It seems to me to be a systemic lack of confidence in themselves and their team-mates.

Obviously Evatt sees them in training etc and so on, but right now it feels like Hickman offers more penetration while Mascoll must be worth a look on the other side, if only to give Gordon a break.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:11 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm
Honestly, Nicko, I think you may be disappointed. I don't think Evatt had a moment of tactical clarity and change the shape, I think he wanted to lob another striker on and that meant going 4-3-3. If it had been 0-0 we'd not have done it. It was the same as when Steve McClaren used to have 5 strikers on the pitch for Boro when they were chasing games in the UEFA Cup...except they actually attacked with purpose. We changed our shape and then hoofed it to Doyle and Delf.

Also a shout-out to the commentators, who wanted us to both "go route one" AND "get our passing going and string a few together" and who thought we should push up to help Doyle AND that our high line was a big problem for us and we should drop deep.

Perhaps, but I do think it's what he should do.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:19 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:52 pm
Good to see your confidence, Nicko - you've picked a back four, a midfield three and a front two... :D
It's the next evolutionary step: disrupt the opposition's shape by giving them fewer players to mark! :wink:
Next-level Freedmanism: controlling the game without having players on the pitch... :mrgreen:
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 pm
In my defence, that was just my spine. I'm not sure who I'd have in the remaining positions, or what formation to go with, although I'd probably have Hickman in too.
I assumed you'd have Hickman at right-back - not sure he's a winger. But then, nobody in this squad is. The 4-3-3 we ended with might be an option, but right now I'd still want Hickman rather than Jones in that back four (although Jones might offer more solidity if we're losing a defender).
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm
Honestly, Nicko, I think you may be disappointed. I don't think Evatt had a moment of tactical clarity and change the shape, I think he wanted to lob another striker on and that meant going 4-3-3. If it had been 0-0 we'd not have done it. It was the same as when Steve McClaren used to have 5 strikers on the pitch for Boro when they were chasing games in the UEFA Cup...except they actually attacked with purpose. We changed our shape and then hoofed it to Doyle and Delf.
Slightly harsh, perhaps understandably. Evatt has played different systems before, notably the 4-3-3 Barrow abandoned when he switched to the back three. We certainly need a Plan B shape when chasing the game (as keeps happening), and this one made a bit more sense than the one v Bradford which looked panicked and thrown-together. Maybe that's because he had Tutte anchoring midfield and Fonz pulling wide in the three, and they're reliable types.
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm
Also a shout-out to the commentators, who wanted us to both "go route one" AND "get our passing going and string a few together" and who thought we should push up to help Doyle AND that our high line was a big problem for us and we should drop deep.
I've only heard these herberts twice and it's already far too much. I like Henshaw's passion and he makes the odd good point as an "expert" should - as I say, he noticed they were receiving the ball square-on instead of opening their bodies to increase their angles and options - but he does lose coherence and his mic technique is awful. As for the lead commentator, I can only say - imagine the candidates they DIDN'T hire.

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