Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:27 pm

Gordon doesn’t need a break, he needs to develop his game. He’s a non league player. He was two(?) divisions below this last season and it’s obvious. The other lad was in Wycombes squad, Let’s hope he is better. Otherwise it’s a big fecking problem.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:32 pm

Let’s say we want to go 451 or 442
What are the wide options? Double up with full backs?

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:33 pm

Right, time for me to waffle bollocks again:

Crellin: He's fine. He needs to make better decisions on occasion, but he's young and I like the kid. No issues.
Santos: An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, hidden inside a dopey bastard. Powerful but doesn't use it, reads the game and then falls asleep. Obviously could be a player if someone hadn't replaced his brain with a ZX Spectrum.
Baptiste: Looked a senile head on old shoulders in the middle. Actually looked much better on the right of three and then in a two. To me, he looks like he doesn't like responsibility and pressure - but could be wrong.
Greenidge: Was really bad and not at all fast. Coming off basically no preseason and not wanting to test his hamstring yet. He gets a pass on that basis.
Jones: The lad is a right back. If we stick with him (because he really can defend) he needs lads to overlap him on the right. Also needs to be a lot more tidy in possession. I think he's a player who matches the level of the players around him.
Gordon: Again, needs to have his right foot worked on a bit of confidence. He always tries to adjust to take and give with his left and it means he isn't aware of what is around him and he's to easy to read.
White: Went missing this time. Tried, but showed why he was in non-league at 22. Can be a player, but needs help from around him.
Comley Still think this lad could be a player for us, but he needs simple options and to stop thinking he is Pirlo.
Sarcevic The main issue for me. His lack of composure and bravery (in relation to the ball) meant we had no link between midfield and attack in the middle made the other mids look even worse than they were. Cowardly, lazy display.
Doyle Not a good day, but again got no service and was forced to go hunting. Put himself about, set up a good chance and nearly a couple of others. Professional display, if not a good one.
Delfouneso Loads of time for him. Not a great display and should have scored at least one, but the lad is so honest and he runs himself into the ground. Again, professional.

Crawford Obvious class on the ball and worked hard. Tried too much because everyone else was so bad. Needs a team around him and he'll be fine.
Tutte Impressed. Basically looked like White from a couple of games earlier. Busy and calm. Always offered to the lads with the ball. Improved the players he was near.
Amoateng Honest, busy lad. Tried his best, but showed his lack of experience. Not ready, but did himself no harm.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Mar » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:34 pm

Seemed like the whole passing game went out the window today in favour of a more route one approach. I suspect that Evatt is not setting the team out to do that and it's gone against his wishes somewhat. Understandably the players are warning to change it up given the last two results and everyone may not all be the on the same page but you would expect it to be better than todays performance.

This reminds me of when we first dropped out of the premiership, a rude awakening for a league we don't want to be in.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:41 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:27 pm
Gordon doesn’t need a break, he needs to develop his game. He’s a non league player. He was two(?) divisions below this last season and it’s obvious. The other lad was in Wycombes squad, Let’s hope he is better. Otherwise it’s a big fecking problem.
Yeah, I hear you. But I wouldn't bollock the lad. Just take him out of the line-up, tell him we need to look at Mascoll. He's played 261 of our 270 competitive minutes - more than every outfielder bar Doyle and Sarce. Everyone else is getting used to the idea of competition for places, and if his confidence is dipping then he needs carefully managing.

He might well be a good sub, which would be a useful way to boost him. Bring him on against a tiring defence and just run at the buggers. He did well to get to that late chance (although the shot was so wayward it didn't even go out for a goal kick). As with other odds and sods we've hired, there's something there - but it needs coaxing and coaching.

As for Mascoll - yes, he was at Wycombe, but that was as back-up after a good game in a pre-season trial. His CV is hardly stellar - Dulwich Hamlet, Grays Athletic, Charlton reserves (one League Cup game and five Sherpa Vans in two third-tier seasons) and back to Dulwich Hamlet. But he's only 23 so it's another Moneyball dice-roll. As you say, let's hope he can prove himself here.
officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:32 pm
Let’s say we want to go 451 or 442
What are the wide options? Double up with full backs?
Not sure Hickman's a winger, although Gordon might be. Crawford is more of a 10 than a CM. Sarcevic, God knows.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm

Crellin - 7 did nothing wrong
Santos - 1 calamity waiting to happen and oh god it so often does
Baptiste - 3 did his best but that wasn’t good enough
Greenidge - 2 did not look quick to me
White - 3 did his best not very good
Comley - 2 awful on the ball
Sarcevic - 1 what does he do?
Jones - 1 never a wing back in a million years
Gordon - 2 he’s better than Jones. That’s it.
Doyle - 1 he’s had three sitters in the last two games and missed them all. Offers nothing else.
Delfouneso - 3 - Tries hard.

I think those match ratings are perfectly fair. I thought we’d at least look a team that rolled it’s sleeves up for each other. I’d say we look like a group who hate each other.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm

Mar wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:34 pm
Seemed like the whole passing game went out the window today in favour of a more route one approach. I suspect that Evatt is not setting the team out to do that and it's gone against his wishes somewhat. Understandably the players are warning to change it up given the last two results and everyone may not all be the on the same page but you would expect it to be better than todays performance.

This reminds me of when we first dropped out of the premiership, a rude awakening for a league we don't want to be in.
Honestly, they tried to play out for a good while; but the defence had fewer and fewer options as the game went on. FGR realised early on they just had to stand in the way of a pass and nobody was going to be arsed to make the run necessary to show. After a while the defenders gave up and just waited for Doyle or Delf to make a run and hooked it up there.

Evatt's "we are so close to ready" is nonsense on that evidence. Making sacrificial runs for the team is vital in this system and it's was not happening enough. Part of that, I think, was that when we did do it early doors the ball was so slow that it was wasted running. We need players making runs in the eye line and others of the blind side and then for the guy on the ball to play the ball fast. If either part of that doesn't happen everyone gets fed up.

The lads need to be in the mental space where they just keep doing what the system demands for 90 minutes. At the moment if they try it once or twice and it doesn't work they give up. That's somewhere Evatt can earn his crust.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:44 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm
Crellin - 7 did nothing wrong
Santos - 1 calamity waiting to happen and oh god it so often does
Baptiste - 3 did his best but that wasn’t good enough
Greenidge - 2 did not look quick to me
White - 3 did his best not very good
Comley - 2 awful on the ball
Sarcevic - 1 what does he do?
Jones - 1 never a wing back in a million years
Gordon - 2 he’s better than Jones. That’s it.
Doyle - 1 he’s had three sitters in the last two games and missed them all. Offers nothing else.
Delfouneso - 3 - Tries hard.

I think those match ratings are perfectly fair. I thought we’d at least look a team that rolled it’s sleeves up for each other. I’d say we look like a group who hate each other.
Did we lose 10-0 or 1-0?

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:49 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:19 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 pm
In my defence, that was just my spine. I'm not sure who I'd have in the remaining positions, or what formation to go with, although I'd probably have Hickman in too.
I assumed you'd have Hickman at right-back - not sure he's a winger. But then, nobody in this squad is. The 4-3-3 we ended with might be an option, but right now I'd still want Hickman rather than Jones in that back four (although Jones might offer more solidity if we're losing a defender).

I would. Hickman at right-back, Baptiste and Delaney, and then I don't know about left-back. I wouldn't be averse to starting Mascoll.

I'm thinking more in terms of personnel and technique than I am about shape and formation, apart from the back four. I think the main objective now should be just get a grip and control proceedings. If that means playing players in more traditional and familiar roles, though, so be it. I still favour perseverance over pragmatism - at least in terms of "philosophy" - but I would prefer a change in approach.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:55 pm

Jesus DSB when you put it that way what the feck have we done - that lad we had last season has just signed for notts county - nowt wrong with him! I don’t mind one gamble if it’s two for each position but we’ve dropped a ball at left wing back on that basis.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Mar » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:59 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:42 pm
Mar wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:34 pm
Seemed like the whole passing game went out the window today in favour of a more route one approach. I suspect that Evatt is not setting the team out to do that and it's gone against his wishes somewhat. Understandably the players are warning to change it up given the last two results and everyone may not all be the on the same page but you would expect it to be better than todays performance.

This reminds me of when we first dropped out of the premiership, a rude awakening for a league we don't want to be in.
Honestly, they tried to play out for a good while; but the defence had fewer and fewer options as the game went on. FGR realised early on they just had to stand in the way of a pass and nobody was going to be arsed to make the run necessary to show. After a while the defenders gave up and just waited for Doyle or Delf to make a run and hooked it up there.

Evatt's "we are so close to ready" is nonsense on that evidence. Making sacrificial runs for the team is vital in this system and it's was not happening enough. Part of that, I think, was that when we did do it early doors the ball was so slow that it was wasted running. We need players making runs in the eye line and others of the blind side and then for the guy on the ball to play the ball fast. If either part of that doesn't happen everyone gets fed up.

The lads need to be in the mental space where they just keep doing what the system demands for 90 minutes. At the moment if they try it once or twice and it doesn't work they give up. That's somewhere Evatt can earn his crust.
I'm in agreement with you here. The lads did try to play out early on and it was working to some degree, no end product but a genuine progression up the pitch whilst retaining the ball. What I did notice was that rather than trying to keep passing as per previous matches, the players seemed to change tact and go to 4 passes and then a rushed ball up front. Maybe it was only one or two players but it stood out noticeably comparred to previous matches.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:05 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:55 pm
Jesus DSB when you put it that way what the feck have we done - that lad we had last season has just signed for notts county - nowt wrong with him! I don’t mind one gamble if it’s two for each position but we’ve dropped a ball at left wing back on that basis.
I wonder if we thought we could get Callum McFadzean but he wanted too much money, then went for Mascoll (who I don't think we trialled) to add numbers. McFadzean is still unattached...

I forgot to mention - during his first spell at Dulwich, Mascoll was loaned to Phoenix Sports and Cray Wanderers, whoever they may be. But look - I don't mind us taking calculated gambles. Perhaps the three "surest" signings were Crawford, Doyle and Sarcevic; one of them has only started one game, the other has barely troubled the keeper and the third has been a crushing disappointment.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:08 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:55 pm
Jesus DSB when you put it that way what the feck have we done - that lad we had last season has just signed for notts county - nowt wrong with him! I don’t mind one gamble if it’s two for each position but we’ve dropped a ball at left wing back on that basis.
They're all gambles. Evatt has come in and signed a ton of players in a few weeks. There's not a single player we have signed (aside from those staff have worked with before) who we can have done our full research on. We have guessed. Even with Doyle, Sarcevic etc we have hoped they'll do what they did at other clubs, not done detailed analysis on whether they are Ian Evatt players.

As I said in the expectations thread, what we have to do is stay up this season and make sure the club remains solvent. If Evatt can build a footballing culture at the club and spend the year looking at having a proper transfer window in the summer then we should be better off. If half of the lads we have signed turn out to be worth keeping it'll have been weirdly impressive. We need to show constant improvement throughout the season. Luckily that should be easy now, as we can hardly get worse.

If Evatt does get us out of this division this season it will probably be the best single season management job I have seen since I started following the Whites. Total squad rebuild using only free transfers, teaching the players an entirely new style of play and building a new footballing brand whilst still winning enough games to get promoted? Wow.

On current evidence..... :conf:
Last edited by GhostoftheBok on Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:09 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:55 pm
Jesus DSB when you put it that way what the feck have we done - that lad we had last season has just signed for notts county - nowt wrong with him! I don’t mind one gamble if it’s two for each position but we’ve dropped a ball at left wing back on that basis.
Our left wing back is far from worst player in this team. Not sure why the obsession. Right wing back is a LOT worse. Least Gordon has pace. The fact is that as a unit they don’t look comfortable and young lads stepping into league football will struggle with that. I’ve no idea what Pre season has achieved but very little if we oook at today. Almost feels like the team spirit isn’t there at all...

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 pm

Mar wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:34 pm
I'm in agreement with you here. The lads did try to play out early on and it was working to some degree, no end product but a genuine progression up the pitch whilst retaining the ball. What I did notice was that rather than trying to keep passing as per previous matches, the players seemed to change tact and go to 4 passes and then a rushed ball up front. Maybe it was only one or two players but it stood out noticeably comparred to previous matches.
This is an interesting point. It's poor decision-making. And possibly poor coaching - either not making the point or not making it clear.

There's a time to push on and a time to keep possession, and it changes by the second. Football is about players and space - moving theirs round to get yours into dangerous positions. Playing a system/style like this, it's pass and move, pass and move, pull them about, pass and move, tire them out, pass and move, BANG. We wise watchers might all make different decisions as to when to scream at the screen, but these are the professionals whose job it literally is.

For my money, the outside centre-backs and wingbacks have to commit to scaring opponents towards them. Then they can either tae them on or slip inside to a well-placed central midfielder who, by watching the play and receiving the ball with his body posture open, can then release a third player (preferably further forward). It seems to me we haven't been doing this enough. That gives us a lack of penetration and means we don't maximise the big-name players further forward.

And that's just half the game - defending has also been problematic, but that's another story...

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:21 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:09 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:55 pm
Jesus DSB when you put it that way what the feck have we done - that lad we had last season has just signed for notts county - nowt wrong with him! I don’t mind one gamble if it’s two for each position but we’ve dropped a ball at left wing back on that basis.
Our left wing back is far from worst player in this team. Not sure why the obsession. Right wing back is a LOT worse. Least Gordon has pace. The fact is that as a unit they don’t look comfortable and young lads stepping into league football will struggle with that. I’ve no idea what Pre season has achieved but very little if we oook at today. Almost feels like the team spirit isn’t there at all...
Game of opinions: I think Jones has been a lot more solid than Gordon, whose positioning was consistently exposed by our first two opponents. Even so, I'd drop Jones for Hickman because he seems to offer more going forward. I'd also try Mascoll because Gordon has not been utterly impeccable and we haven't yet seen the alternative. Or would you decree Gordon undroppable on the evidence of the three straight defeats he's played in?

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:25 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:21 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:09 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:55 pm
Jesus DSB when you put it that way what the feck have we done - that lad we had last season has just signed for notts county - nowt wrong with him! I don’t mind one gamble if it’s two for each position but we’ve dropped a ball at left wing back on that basis.
Our left wing back is far from worst player in this team. Not sure why the obsession. Right wing back is a LOT worse. Least Gordon has pace. The fact is that as a unit they don’t look comfortable and young lads stepping into league football will struggle with that. I’ve no idea what Pre season has achieved but very little if we oook at today. Almost feels like the team spirit isn’t there at all...
Game of opinions: I think Jones has been a lot more solid than Gordon, whose positioning was consistently exposed by our first two opponents. Even so, I'd drop Jones for Hickman because he seems to offer more going forward. I'd also try Mascoll because Gordon has not been utterly impeccable and we haven't yet seen the alternative. Or would you decree Gordon undroppable on the evidence of the three straight defeats he's played in?
Solid? He’s a wing back. Nobody is undroppable. But Jones was abysmal today. Gordon is raw but like I say he has pace which is the absolute requirement of the role. Jones is not a wing back...I’ve no real idea why we signed him - if we wanted a right back...sure....

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:28 pm

Mar and DSB are both right in what they are saying. To my eye the lads look like they don't trust their ability yet. Sometimes you have to thread a pass to open space and sometimes you have to retain the ball and (as DSB says) that is a split second decision. In order to have the ability to make that choice, a professional player needs to believe he can make the pass most of the time. This is where I think Gordon is having a really hard time. If a player receives the ball and has two options, one threaded ball and one easy pass, a lack of confidence will mean in reality he has one pass available. Likewise, when a player receives the ball in a tough position he may have three possible threaded passes, but if he lacks belief in his ability he will go long. Gordon ALWAYS takes the option that shows a lack of confidence. Sometimes it is also the right pass, because it is time to retain the ball, but too often it is the wrong ball or a hoof.

That doesn't mean he isn't confident in other areas of his game. A player might try to beat men and do tricks (see Comley and his step-overs), because he trusts himself there - but if he doesn't trust his passing he will never be able to play this system.

Players like Gordon and Comley need the coaching staff to give them that confidence. If they believe they can receive comfortably, play out with both feet and make their passes consistently then they will look totally different players. At the minute they are also entirely focused on making sure their first touch is right, because they don't trust it, which means they have no awareness.

That's my take anyway. A decent technical coach has those two as radically different players in 3-6 months.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by Jugs » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:38 pm

Well that was bloody awful.

Our lamentable descent from European regulars to bog-standard League Two Shit Boys is officially complete.

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Re: Haven't Seen You Her-Bi-Vore. Inaugural Meat-ing. Forest Green Rovers (H) Sat 12/09/20 15:00 (Division 4)

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:42 pm

I don't think it helps Gordon that our lack of incisiveness and urgency in getting up the pitch means the final third often ends up being quite congested.

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