Pragmatism vs Perseverance

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How do you want to see the manager respond to iffy results?

Pragmatism
7
37%
Perseverance
12
63%
 
Total votes: 19

GhostoftheBok
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Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by GhostoftheBok » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:28 pm

There seem to be two main schools of thought amongst football fans.

School one says that in order to get a system right and create a footballing culture you have to stick at it and play through the pain. Things will go wrong, players will take time to adapt and you just have to rough it out to get where you need to be.

School two says you find whatever way of playing suit lets you grind out the results and you can then gradually shift towards the way you'd ultimately like to play.

Let's imagine we get off to a rocky start under Evatt. We are 6 games into the season and we are on very few points. Which approach do you think it correct? Do you trust the style and system and work through it, or do you adopt a simpler/familiar way of playing to get some points on the board and then try to play "the Boltcelona way" more over time?

Poll is just for interest, but I'm really interested in your rationale.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:34 pm

At many points in recent history, pragmatism. Now, perseverance. Not much point having Year Zero then changing back by February.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by LeverEnd » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:44 am

Since he's signed players specifically to play that system he has to persevere. There are different player combinations he can use if it's not working.
Problem is our best recruitment has been the 'icing on the cake' players, but there isn't much of a cake at the moment.
...

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:17 am

There comes a point where pragmatism will kick in. How many relegations would such a team suffer before deciding that it wasn't working? Sure the answer isn't at 6 games in, but if we were on zero points then I'm fairly sure questions would start being asked if it was down to rinse/repeat mistakes.

There's nothing written down that says 442 can't pass front to back nor that 352 can't punt it. So the ethos can remain without dogmatically sticking with a formation unable to deliver results.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:34 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:17 am
There comes a point where pragmatism will kick in. How many relegations would such a team suffer before deciding that it wasn't working? Sure the answer isn't at 6 games in, but if we were on zero points then I'm fairly sure questions would start being asked if it was down to rinse/repeat mistakes.

There's nothing written down that says 442 can't pass front to back nor that 352 can't punt it. So the ethos can remain without dogmatically sticking with a formation unable to deliver results.
Truedat, although I think the question is more about style than formation. (That said, the machine-tooled squad Evatt and Phoenix built would struggle to play 442 unless it’s a narrow diamond - so we can assume they’ll vote Perseverance...)

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:54 am

Style-wise, I agree we should hold out longer. Despite the results of the first two games, there were occasions in both when I was pleased with our pass and attack play. As mentioned, second half v Crewe was a decent watch, felt like we were trying to play "good football". That's been missing under a few recent managers, with the inability of technically better (allegedly) players than current crop unable to hit a 5 yard pass to someone on our side.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:18 pm

Yeah, it feels like it’s coming. I just hope we get the balance right because the oppo will let us take all the passes we like if we’re chasing the game. I’d like to see what we can do once we get in front and boss a game - in an inversion of Freedmanism, dominate it WITH the ball. Feels like it might be fun.

At the moment, every time we’ve gone in front we’ve won - but every time we’ve gone behind we’ve lost. (Interestingly, every time we’ve equalised we’ve lost too...)

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:47 pm

Fantasy football has until Harrogate for me. We will get dicked at Colchester but if we are propping up the table after games against Newport and Harrogate I’d seriously be questioning this whole episode. Including Phoenix and his championship manager settings (pace >15, etc).

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:51 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:47 pm
Fantasy football has until Harrogate for me. We will get dicked at Colchester but if we are propping up the table after games against Newport and Harrogate I’d seriously be questioning this whole episode. Including Phoenix and his championship manager settings (pace >15, etc).
Pace 15, Acceleration 3...

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:11 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:47 pm
Fantasy football has until Harrogate for me. We will get dicked at Colchester but if we are propping up the table after games against Newport and Harrogate I’d seriously be questioning this whole episode. Including Phoenix and his championship manager settings (pace >15, etc).
Nah, the manager needs to get proper time to build. It’s pointless switching to a pragmatic old head because we’ve got this squad to work with. And frankly we know it will only take you so far if anywhere at all. We had the ultimate in pragmatic lower league managers and people didn’t want him. So stick with this, regardless for the next couple of years and see how it develops.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 pm

We are wedded to to the idea of playing "progressive" football. Evatt should be given the season unless we look like being relegated. That's the only thing that should risk his job. If he's been garbage over the season we can sack him in the summer, but I think they'd just try to get another of the same sort in. A young boss who wants to play passing footy.

Honestly, I am not sure Evatt's brand of football is right for Bolton. I think we might have been better trying out someone who wants to be Klopp, rather than Trapattoni. Evatt has spoken about reeducating the fans, but the culture of this club is more about work rate, desire and getting it forward. If it goes wrong I can see shouts of "cut out the tippy tappy shit and get it forward" if the fans go back and the boos not long after.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:19 pm

I meant if we lose 4(6) on the bounce I want to see him dig out some points with a 451 or whatever. Pragmatism.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:22 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:19 pm
I meant if we lose 4(6) on the bounce I want to see him dig out some points with a 451 or whatever. Pragmatism.
If we’ve even got the players for that...I’d rather he actually got us playing in his vision, because right now we aren’t doing anything I expected. Not pressing, not keeping the ball. We play more long balls than we did under Parky...and they are less effective. I think we need to find a player to act as an outlet. Might mean dropping Doyle, playing Fonz up to on his own and getting another roaming mid in. Because the two up front aren’t offering a thing.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:29 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 pm
If it goes wrong I can see shouts of "cut out the tippy tappy shit and get it forward" if the fans go back and the boos not long after.
Fans won't be back for a while. That might work in his favour. In fact, the idea of a "home game" might be less important - not to ignore the implications of travelling, etc, but tactically managers might get more leeway than they would with the baying masses at their backs. I think it was Arsenal who sat incredibly deep at home – deeper than the home fans would have "accepted" – against Liverpool and got the win. Similarly, Mourinho might get away with tactics at home that no previous Spurs manager would Dare To Do because the fans can't get vocal. Mourinho would slaughter a game to get a result but Evatt is perhaps the opposite; however, in his own way, he may need the time to do as he sees fit.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:22 pm
We play more long balls than we did under Parky
Nurse! The screens!

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:32 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:29 pm
Fans won't be back for a while. That might work in his favour.
Weirdly, given the data, I hope that is true. If football is to continue in this country it needs to be almost entirely isolated from the wider community.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:20 pm

He’s lurching into must not lose territory next Saturday.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by TonyDomingos » Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:36 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:20 pm
He’s lurching into must not lose territory next Saturday.

Surely that is the territory for every game?!
Às armas, às armas!
Sobre a terra, sobre o mar,
Às armas, às armas!
Pela Pátria lutar!
Contra os canhões marchar, marchar!

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:38 pm

Another two defeats and I’d sack him. Seriously.
We’re in danger of dropping again.

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Re: Pragmatism vs Perseverance

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:14 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:38 pm
Another two defeats and I’d sack him. Seriously.
We’re in danger of dropping again.
We always were. We had a tough start to the season, with a cobbled-together squad and a manager whose style of football needs a lot of work and who has only ever worked in non-league before.

The only real question for me was whether it would be a slow start and we'd slowly get it or whether it'd be a slow start that would spiral.

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