Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:21 pm

Next Saturday we host Oldham, who are 92nd in the league... yet have still scored three and a half times more goals than us.

Their problem (well, one of them) is that they've conceded twice as many as us, and we seem to have tightened up considerably, but the remaining problem is still blindingly obvious.

What isn't is the solution. Talk of Doyle's obsolescence is a laughable over-reaction but he is certainly misfiring because he isn't being used to his strengths. To me, and judging by average positions, it seems Evatt has reverted not to 3-4-1-2 but to something more like a 3-4-3 which in effect becomes a 5-3-1-1 and still leaves our box-fox isolated.

While I applaud Delfouneso's diligence in tracking back and helping out down the left, it leaves him too far from his strike partner - and his dribbles are no longer working either. I would rather leave the tracking back to the midfielders, including Crawford whose fitness levels are rising and who should be subbed for Darcy if he's struggling. (Saying that, no other player in the squad would have seen, let alone executed, that 50-yard ball to the flag for Gordon to catch in the last five minutes.)

We're getting there, but the nature of our summer recruiting has again left us with a somewhat hit and miss squad. What's more annoying about that is that some of those "get 'em through the door" signings, allegedly procured quickly to get them up to fitness and familiarity with our intended patterns of play, appear to have achieved neither.

The defence looks miles better than it did a fortnight ago – Santos looks like the exciting signing we expected rather than the competition winner we feared. The team is trying to play football, but the lack of depth caused by injuries and, let's face it, the odd risky signing have led to lack of options. I love Harry Brockbank dearly and I think he could play 500 times for our and his beloved club but he's never a wingback as long as I've a hole in me arse. A better option would have been White (young, energetic, knows the system, trusted by Evatt) but he got kicked onto crutches by our ex-player. You couldn't make it up.
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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:36 pm

Miller is straight in the team I reckon. Drop Crawford and play him in the hole.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:41 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:36 pm
Miller is straight in the team I reckon. Drop Crawford and play him in the hole.
Trouble is Dibs, you're necessarily basing that on very little evidence. He's played 34 minutes. For nine of them, against Bratfurt, he barely touched the ball, and the other 25 were in the FL Trophy. He looked like he might have summat and God knows we need someone who can test the net-pegs but I fear there may be a bit of Andranik going on with him – in all fairness, he's a 33-year-old journeyman who's been let go by Morecambe and Carlisle, not the Cheshire Totti.






(Hope he scores a hat-trick now :mrgreen: )

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:12 pm

I was writing a post about what was wrong today, but honestly I'm sick of analysing this team already. What's wrong is they've not be sufficiently drilled yet. The press isn't right, players aren't making the right runs and most are not brave enough on the ball. You could write pages and pages on the details, but that sums it up.

One thing I'd note is that Delf isn't out of position when he tracks back and he doesn't really have a strike partner. He's not a striker in this system we are playing, he's the "loose" forward. He's supposed to provide the spare man who makes our "rondo" passing click. The trouble isn't him tracking back, it's that he shouldn't have to do it constantly. We need defenders to step up as well as forwards to step down, but we are not getting that "overlap-underlap" movement from the defence we need. That leaves Delf slogging his guts out and you could see him moaning about it during the game. He made a thirty yard run to offer an option when it should have been Mascoll stepping in 5 yards and Delaney overlapping him....but they had no idea.

Uncle Pep would have been displeased.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:32 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:12 pm
I was writing a post about what was wrong today, but honestly I'm sick of analysing this team already. What's wrong is they've not be sufficiently drilled yet. The press isn't right, players aren't making the right runs and most are not brave enough on the ball. You could write pages and pages on the details, but that sums it up.

One thing I'd note is that Delf isn't out of position when he tracks back and he doesn't really have a strike partner. He's not a striker in this system we are playing, he's the "loose" forward. He's supposed to provide the spare man who makes our "rondo" passing click. The trouble isn't him tracking back, it's that he shouldn't have to do it constantly. We need defenders to step up as well as forwards to step down, but we are not getting that "overlap-underlap" movement from the defence we need. That leaves Delf slogging his guts out and you could see him moaning about it during the game. He made a thirty yard run to offer an option when it should have been Mascoll stepping in 5 yards and Delaney overlapping him....but they had no idea.

Uncle Pep would have been displeased.
Do you still think Evatt is aiming for a reconstruction of an old Italian theory? Fair enough like, but I think for now he's just trying to get them to pass and move. The pass they'll do, the move is harder to achieve.

For instance, while in the early days he may have wanted Taft to go overlapping down the left and Santos down the right, I don't think he expects the same now from Delaney and Brockbank. And y'know what, that's alright for now. Since they came in we've conceded one goal in 180 league minutes – but admittedly because they're not rampaging forward like sailors on shore leave we're a little light further forward. Now it's time to fix that, and I'm intrigued to see what happens.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:37 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:32 pm
Do you still think Evatt is aiming for a reconstruction of an old Italian theory? Fair enough like, but I think for now he's just trying to get them to pass and move. The pass they'll do, the move is harder to achieve.

For instance, while in the early days he may have wanted Taft to go overlapping down the left and Santos down the right, I don't think he expects the same now from Delaney and Brockbank. And y'know what, that's alright for now.
No, I think he's feathered back his expectations a bit in exchange for some solidity; but I do think Delf is still expected to link rather than just partner Doyle upfront and the defenders do have to step up if Evatt's short passing is going to happen. When they don't we end up passing around the main zone of engagement, because it's simply too easy to press us in the midfield.

It doesn't need to be Evatt's wet dream football - but the backs have to offer and not just stand there 5-10 yards out of position.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:44 pm

I wondered how today's lack of goalkeeper-bothering compared to the rest of this fledgling season. Here's the details. Sorry, nobody seems to record FL Trophy stats.

The bright green bits are our attempts on target per game, the pale green coming off the top of those is off-target attempts. Similarly, our opponents' are bright red for on target, paler red for off. Also, I recorded the opponents' numbers as minuses so they'd go below the line, in opposition to ours.

Conclusions? Nowt much except that we've never exactly been peppering their goalie's gloves. Indeed, 15 accurate attempts in six games (excluding FLT) is one every 36 minutes. That's got to rise. Discounting for the sake of argument (namely my argument, impending) the Newport game, we've not been "conceding" a lot of shots, and they've dwindled to near-insignificance of late. That might be the new defence/defenders, or it might be that we were playing a recent non-league side and a bunch of blokes that hadn't seen each other for a fortnight...
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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:47 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:37 pm
I think he's feathered back his expectations a bit in exchange for some solidity; but I do think Delf is still expected to link rather than just partner Doyle upfront and the defenders do have to step up if Evatt's short passing is going to happen. When they don't we end up passing around the main zone of engagement, because it's simply too easy to press us in the midfield.

It doesn't need to be Evatt's wet dream football - but the backs have to offer and not just stand there 5-10 yards out of position.
Tweaks, dear boy, mere tweaks. This time next week we'll be millionaires. Or summat... :mrgreen:

No, I see what you're saying but we're not going to turn Delaney and Brocky into marauders so he needs another plan that offers passing options without isolating our main weapon, the Doyle Cannon. There's enough buggers about in midfield, they just need to show for it and move for each other. It feels weird saying this after that result but it does feel like something is rumbling into shape.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:02 pm

One more before I turn in for the night: I know not everybody likes expected goals but if it's not your bag, then look out the window or something. Just league games here, and we're gradually slipping downwards...
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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by truewhite15 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:35 pm

I saw signs today that the formation was starting to bear fruit. Out of possession, the back three pulled close in, the gaps on the flanks being filled by a combination of the wide players and the defensive midfielders. In possession, those same centre backs spread outwards, leaving Brockbank and Delaney as de-facto RB and LB, and Santos alone in the centre. Harry and Ryan were then able to step up to the half way line in support. So far so good.

Tutte did the simple things, as you'd expect a good DM to do. Passed it simply, dropped back to make the back three a four when under the cosh. Tick. Mascoll and Hickman constantly sought space on the flanks, assisting the attack and spreading the midfield, acting more as proper wide midfielders than wing backs. Also tick.

Delf, as the supporting striker, came deep often to look for the ball and to drag their centre backs out of shape. Just as we would want him to.

As far as my layman's eye can tell, that's seven of the ten outfielders doing exactly what we want them to in order to make this shape work. We saw that effectiveness at the end of the first half, where we pinned Grimsby into their own box without really threatening. The problem lies with the other three.

Doyle was higher up the pitch than his partner, but frequently had to come too deep to collect. Doyle shouldn't have to dribble past more than a single defender to get his shot away. I don't buy into the theory set forth by some on here that Doyle isn't doing enough. If anything, he's having to do too much. He showed only last season that with the right service he will get goals. In a 3-5-2 formation, we should be able to carry a fox-in-the-box; it's up to the wingers, to Delf, to Crawford and Sarce (more on them shortly) to provide that service to him.

Crawford. I'll confess, I wasn't as impressed with him last season as some seem to have been. As the attacking midfielder, he should constantly be looking for and finding that space between the opposition's back line and midfield, and driving at the defence as soon as he gets the ball. When out of possession, he becomes the lynch-pin in the centre of the park, presenting himself for the outball. He should be far more energetic in attack than in defence, but he's just anonymous all over the place right now. He isn't visible enough in possession, he's not making things spark, he's not getting the ball enough. And when he does, he's too frequently looking to play it sideways rather than forwards.

It's a similar problem with Sarcevic. He should be available for the outball from the defence and then driving forwards with it, looking for those wingers, looking for Delf and Crawford. Leave it to Tutte to do the simple stuff; Sarce needs to get his head up more and follow the attack all the way to the edge of the box. But again, he isn't showing for the ball and isn't adventurous enough when he gets it.

The midfield engine room in this system is so important for ball retention and for sparking those attacks. And that, in my view, is the bit that hasn't quite chugged into life yet.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:06 pm

All that seems entirely fair comment to me, TW15.

Tutte looks reliable as “the” defensive midfielder, not just defensively but generally capable of at least trying to pass the ball forwards - not spectacularly, just progressing the ball 5/10/15 yards diagonally forward to a team-mate.

Therefore I’d like to see two midfielders, presumably (for now) Sarcevic and Crawford, in front of him as forward-pointing midfielders, who should when we are in possession be covering the areas between halfway and the edge of the box. Outside them, the wingbacks - or wide midfielders, indeed - offer another option, another problem for the oppo. And up front, Doyle is no longer isolated if his mate Delf ain’t delving backwards into midfield. Almost more of. 3-1-4-2 if you like, certainly when we are in possession.

I don’t think that’s too far from what would best suit Sarcevic and Crawford, while Doyle needs to be in and around the area getting crosses and knockdowns rather than vainly trying to dribble from half way.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by DJBlu » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:40 pm

It's easy for us to pick out the negatives as there are a lot. I'll start with a positive in which most people were asking about when our defence was laughable. This is starting to look better. Mr Insane, I do recall you would be happy with a 0-0 all but 3 games ago if they worked on it and showed improvement.

Now that we look like we're getting something right at the back are they not allowed to work on the next bit which is creating chances? Maybe we go for a 1 nil now?

Doyle, top scorer in the league he's come with massive expectations. These have yet to be fulfilled as has been pointed out he's being asked to play a role in which isn't his preferred role.

I like all of us on here get overly passionate when we're playing but we still need to realise where we are as a team.

Sarcevic showed signs of organising on the pitch as did others which is why I believe he's not playing like we think he should. Maybe learning the role of Bolton captain is something that doesn't come natural to him. I doubt it's going to be long before they know how each other work and where they will be on the pitch.

2 games 4 points. Clean sheet. Couple of goals. No injuries.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by brommers95 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:14 pm

About sums up where I’m at DJBlu. If we go on to pick up 10 or so points over the rest of October we’ll look back on the Harrogate and Grimsby games and think what a good launch pad it was.

I’ll admit I am slightly worried about the lack of chances we are creating at present. As DSB pointed out, the expected goals (I am a fan of it) are just non-existent atm. But defence looks night and day from what it was just 2 weeks ago, granted against poor opposition but pleasing progress nonetheless.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:15 pm

Despite the obvious frustration, there are things to be positive about and a more realistic hope that things may be turning, ever so slowly.

Santos didnt look like a footballer a fortnight ago. Today he looked like a ball playing centre half.
Tutte, a late addition without a track record to get excited about, looks very comfortable in possession and should be one of the first names on the team sheet. He wasn't very good today but the same goes for Delfounso.
Hickman and Mascoll both show great promise too.
Get the experienced, forward foursome firing on all cylinders and we could be onto something.
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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by TonyDomingos » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:07 am

In form and only 5pts from the play offs with 41 games to go. We can do this.
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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Spartan2 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:36 am

truewhite15 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:35 pm
I saw signs today that the formation was starting to bear fruit. Out of possession, the back three pulled close in, the gaps on the flanks being filled by a combination of the wide players and the defensive midfielders. In possession, those same centre backs spread outwards, leaving Brockbank and Delaney as de-facto RB and LB, and Santos alone in the centre. Harry and Ryan were then able to step up to the half way line in support. So far so good.

Tutte did the simple things, as you'd expect a good DM to do. Passed it simply, dropped back to make the back three a four when under the cosh. Tick. Mascoll and Hickman constantly sought space on the flanks, assisting the attack and spreading the midfield, acting more as proper wide midfielders than wing backs. Also tick.

Delf, as the supporting striker, came deep often to look for the ball and to drag their centre backs out of shape. Just as we would want him to.

As far as my layman's eye can tell, that's seven of the ten outfielders doing exactly what we want them to in order to make this shape work. We saw that effectiveness at the end of the first half, where we pinned Grimsby into their own box without really threatening. The problem lies with the other three.

Doyle was higher up the pitch than his partner, but frequently had to come too deep to collect. Doyle shouldn't have to dribble past more than a single defender to get his shot away. I don't buy into the theory set forth by some on here that Doyle isn't doing enough. If anything, he's having to do too much. He showed only last season that with the right service he will get goals. In a 3-5-2 formation, we should be able to carry a fox-in-the-box; it's up to the wingers, to Delf, to Crawford and Sarce (more on them shortly) to provide that service to him.

Crawford. I'll confess, I wasn't as impressed with him last season as some seem to have been. As the attacking midfielder, he should constantly be looking for and finding that space between the opposition's back line and midfield, and driving at the defence as soon as he gets the ball. When out of possession, he becomes the lynch-pin in the centre of the park, presenting himself for the outball. He should be far more energetic in attack than in defence, but he's just anonymous all over the place right now. He isn't visible enough in possession, he's not making things spark, he's not getting the ball enough. And when he does, he's too frequently looking to play it sideways rather than forwards.

It's a similar problem with Sarcevic. He should be available for the outball from the defence and then driving forwards with it, looking for those wingers, looking for Delf and Crawford. Leave it to Tutte to do the simple stuff; Sarce needs to get his head up more and follow the attack all the way to the edge of the box. But again, he isn't showing for the ball and isn't adventurous enough when he gets it.

The midfield engine room in this system is so important for ball retention and for sparking those attacks. And that, in my view, is the bit that hasn't quite chugged into life yet.
It's rare to agree with someone 100% but that's exactly as I saw it. It's a shame Riley and Darcy didn't get a chance as they were so good on Tuesday.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by The_Gun » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:42 am

Overall a bit of a strange and frustrating performance yesterday, but not entirely disheartening. I feel like we really needed to have scored during the period of pressure we had towards the end of the first half, and when we went into halftime at 0-0 we seemed to lose some spark.

I think in terms of personnel we have players to make up a good starting 11, but beyond that we’re lacking depth and I’d like to see us add a couple of new recruits this week to give us more varied options. We lack any kind of wide forwards, barring I suppose Isgrove, which strikes me as a glaring hole in the squad.

Focusing on the positives, I thought Santos was outstanding yesterday and is starting to look like a lower league Van Dijk. His style of play does mean it’s likely he’ll still make the odd mistake, but he’s surely the first name on the team sheet at the moment.

Brockbank too I thought was very good, certainly when he was playing at CB anyway. He is slightly small for the position, but is very composed on the ball and the cross field passes he played to Mascoll demonstrated a level of ability not many of our other players have. He should be a mainstay in the team from now on.



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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:22 am

I am no tactical expert by any stretch, and am still struggling to see how a lack of decent crosses from Hickman on the right was to be solved by taking Brockbank from his preferred position at CH and asking him to play RWB while replacing him with a worse CH, thereby weakening 2 positions.
And Comley as well, negative poor player. Darcy meanwhile sits on the bench watching us labour. The lad must be so insulted. I don't buy into the Darcy hype necessarily but if he's rated highly enough to be on the bench I can't see any valid reason for him not be brought on given the way the game was panning out.
Evatt them accuses the players of not wanting to win enough. .
...

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:38 am

LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:22 am
I am no tactical expert by any stretch, and am still struggling to see how a lack of decent crosses from Hickman on the right was to be solved by taking Brockbank from his preferred position at CH and asking him to play RWB while replacing him with a worse CH, thereby weakening 2 positions.
And Comley as well, negative poor player. Darcy meanwhile sits on the bench watching us labour. The lad must be so insulted. I don't buy into the Darcy hype necessarily but if he's rated highly enough to be on the bench I can't see any valid reason for him not be brought on given the way the game was panning out.
Evatt them accuses the players of not wanting to win enough. .
Aye, thay mystified me too.

Whilst we're happy that the defence got a nil (and I am a lot happier than two weeks back especially with Santos improvement - as an aside I don't think that improvement has just come from "training", I suspect there's been a large dose of bollocking too), it was against a team that hasn't scored yet, I don't think, in the league, and as the second half wore on it got shaker. But a big improvement all the same.

I don't think Doyle is a pup, but last season was an exceptional haul. We shouldn't be expecting a goal a game. He's nearer 1 in 3.5 over his career, so maybe expect 10-15 over the season. He's capable of that.

We didn't look like scoring if we'd played another 90 minutes. Mascoll played about half the passes Hickman did and it does look quite one sided to me which is easier to defend. Maybe that was down to Fonz not having his best day at the office. But the midfield heatmap (with Crawford excluded) from yesterday is devoid of much over the hw line, other than Hickman on the right. Crawford can't do it all on his own, neither can Doyle.

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Re: Oh My Cod! Will we put them in their Plaice? Grimsby Town (H), League 2, Saturday 10th October @ 15:00

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:48 am

Yes, bad day for Fonz, but been more impressed with him than by anyone else. Doing too much by himself, if everyone else starts pulling their weight I think he'll cause some damage.
Doyle seems only any good in a winning side. I'd drop him for Miller when he's fit and bring him back if we're making chances and missing them.
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