Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by LeverEnd » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:20 am

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:14 pm

I want Evatt to do well, but I have an awful feeling in the pit of my stomach that we have been conned. I would have imagine that by now we would be rolling in Evatts style football. He is blaming the players. A poor workman blames his tools which he bought! I hope to God for his sake, and ours, that we win against his old club. If we lose, my worst fears would become a reality...that we have been conned into believing that he is more than a non-league manager.
Same. Wasn't against the principle of a young ambitious manager on the rise, but was always a bit puzzled as to our determination to get him in. He's basically had one very good half season streak in the national League. Is that enough to make him such a desirable target?
Obviously hope he learns quickly and turns it around but have very little hope.
I think phoenix is the real con here. What is his background? What qualifies him other than his tough talking blagging interview. Came across as a right cnut in the interview with Iles. Aloof and arrogant with nothing to back.it up. Classic case if emperor's new clothes.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by LeverEnd » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:42 am

His interview has really pissed me off. Chucking the players under the bus, fair enough, but spare us the 'I'm a fighter and a winner' self-aggrandising bollocks. Can we just get a manager who isn't a massive bellend? Or at least who can win games while being one.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:47 am

I think he is now distancing himself from the player signings. Phoenix is arguably as culpable but to chuck the players under the bus a week after telling us they were training like Real Madrid, and a month or so after saying we were thriving on being title favourites. Not sure if he’s schizophrenic or what but he needs to chill out. Thought his first set of quotes from Saturday nailed it in terms of players needing to work for each other but he’s just so extreme. I don’t think he’s going to last long.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by LeverEnd » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:51 am

You're right, there's no moderation in his comments. He should join this forum!
Another one for the bwfc managerial graveyard. I've given up now. Too much else on my plate to be worrying about this shit!
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:09 am

That’s the thing - players are escaping absolute pelters from the fans at the moment. Could arguably be a lot worse for them. But fans are so detached from it all now it’s dead easy not to pay your ten quid and watch it...the enjoyable bits of going to the match have been taken off us anyway. It will all become a bit meh all too soon.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am

What screams out is a lack of experience and know how. Phoenix is probably no different to any DoF but has never really done it. Evatt has never really done it or faced pressure or had to navigate out of a situation like this. I said at the time my fear was whether Evatt for all his talk and quite obviously sound tactical ideas had the ability to deal with the muck and nettles on a daily basis. Because what this is now is a results business. Nobody cares if we spend 90 minutes lumping the ball 70 yards if we win. And nobody cares how many passes we make sideways if ultimately we lose.

Bruce is spot on that lots of goals come from set pieces yet we look completely toothless from them. And we've got a big side out there too. Its all very well relying on a confident run at Barrow BUT was that luck - did the right players just happen to fall into place...because now he hasn't got those right players so a good manager has to find a way to get results with the group he's got. And Evatt is untested with that. Just doing the same things won't improve our lot.

I do think there is a need to bring in an experienced coach who has worked the lower leagues alongside Evatt to act as mentor and basically help him out a bit. The problem with that is it needs to be Evatt's idea and someone he will listen to. We don't have the ability to change manager or head coach or whatever but there is an absolute need to add some experience. Given we apparently only have Evatt and Atherton coaching the first team outfield lot then there is certainly space to add one or two.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:35 am

Interesting that we still have coaches on furlough. Or extended garden leave?

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:44 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am

I do think there is a need to bring in an experienced coach who has worked the lower leagues alongside Evatt to act as mentor and basically help him out a bit. The problem with that is it needs to be Evatt's idea and someone he will listen to.
I always think of old Monty Burns sat on the Freedman bench seemingly contributing absolutely nothing when people mention these kind of set-ups.

I think you could well be on to something for a couple of reasons here though. The first is that, as you say, we have a non-league manager here who could certainly use the experience and guidance of someone who has it. Secondly, if Big-Hat-and-No-Cattle Evatt didn't like that set-up, and I'd say that given the apparent size of his self opinion he wouldn't, then let him do the decent thing and bugger off siting that he 'wasn't prepared to work under those circumstances'. After all, I can't see how else we can afford to get shot of him.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by DJBlu » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:54 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am
Evatt has never really done it or faced pressure or had to navigate out of a situation like this.
Such a broad assumption, he didn't get Barrow playing the promotion football after 9 games in charge. I'm sure his 1st season in charge was a walk in the park? Barrow fans will not have been happy when they were losing at home in his infancy as manager. Ian Evatt is here on merit and will hopefully get it right.

All this talk of giving the man time is just fans playing lip service to an underlying issue in football in general.

I'm sure West Ham fans wanted Moyes sacking at half time last night.

We're going to have to trust the board and the man in charge. I'm sure everything mentioned on here Evatt will be aware of, and I hope is trying to solve.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:04 am

DJBlu wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:54 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am
Evatt has never really done it or faced pressure or had to navigate out of a situation like this.
Such a broad assumption, he didn't get Barrow playing the promotion football after 9 games in charge. I'm sure his 1st season in charge was a walk in the park? Barrow fans will not have been happy when they were losing at home in his infancy as manager. Ian Evatt is here on merit and will hopefully get it right.

All this talk of giving the man time is just fans playing lip service to an underlying issue in football in general.

I'm sure West Ham fans wanted Moyes sacking at half time last night.

We're going to have to trust the board and the man in charge. I'm sure everything mentioned on here Evatt will be aware of, and I hope is trying to solve.
He only won 3 of his first 11 in his debut 2018/19 season. Then lost six on the bounce (including one cup game) in October/November. Then won five of the next eight... then one of the next nine.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:03 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:20 am
I think phoenix is the real con here. What is his background? What qualifies him other than his tough talking blagging interview. Came across as a right cnut in the interview with Iles. Aloof and arrogant with nothing to back.it up. Classic case if emperor's new clothes.
Agreed. Evatt at least has Barrows promotion to point to. What's this guy's pedigree? Half a season at Macclesfield? What moneyball signings did they produce during his time there?

The moneyball idea was well suited to our situation but while finances are tight some of the decisions look like they could cost us more in the long run. Compo for Evatt, a 3 year deal for a 32 year old, and 2 year contracts to some players that currently look incapable of being up to football league standard.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:09 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:04 am
DJBlu wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:54 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am
Evatt has never really done it or faced pressure or had to navigate out of a situation like this.
Such a broad assumption, he didn't get Barrow playing the promotion football after 9 games in charge. I'm sure his 1st season in charge was a walk in the park? Barrow fans will not have been happy when they were losing at home in his infancy as manager. Ian Evatt is here on merit and will hopefully get it right.

All this talk of giving the man time is just fans playing lip service to an underlying issue in football in general.

I'm sure West Ham fans wanted Moyes sacking at half time last night.

We're going to have to trust the board and the man in charge. I'm sure everything mentioned on here Evatt will be aware of, and I hope is trying to solve.
He only won 3 of his first 11 in his debut 2018/19 season. Then lost six on the bounce (including one cup game) in October/November. Then won five of the next eight... then one of the next nine.
So his first season, he P46 W17 D13 L16 accumulating 64 points and finishing 11th. That would get us about half way, I suspect most years and I could live with that as a "transition period". I've not asked for him to be sacked or owt and I'm a way from that point at the moment.

That said, we clearly would struggle with the concept of yet another relegation so we have to buck that particular trend. If we were still flirting at the beginning of January, I would be getting nervous, despite the nice words about "building for the future"....

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Prufrock » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:12 pm

I think that's all fair enough and about where I am. As long as we get ourselves into midtable and out of danger by Jan then he gets probs ten games next season for me. He'd have had three windows (and a non-embargoed summer) by then.

I think for anyone to even think about getting rid now is madness.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by nicholaldo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:14 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:04 am
DJBlu wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:54 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am
Evatt has never really done it or faced pressure or had to navigate out of a situation like this.
Such a broad assumption, he didn't get Barrow playing the promotion football after 9 games in charge. I'm sure his 1st season in charge was a walk in the park? Barrow fans will not have been happy when they were losing at home in his infancy as manager. Ian Evatt is here on merit and will hopefully get it right.

All this talk of giving the man time is just fans playing lip service to an underlying issue in football in general.

I'm sure West Ham fans wanted Moyes sacking at half time last night.

We're going to have to trust the board and the man in charge. I'm sure everything mentioned on here Evatt will be aware of, and I hope is trying to solve.
He only won 3 of his first 11 in his debut 2018/19 season. Then lost six on the bounce (including one cup game) in October/November. Then won five of the next eight... then one of the next nine.

I'll have a proper look when I have time later on, but I'd be interested to know how he handled his media interviews during that period. He's said some very damaging things about his players this weekend which could be difficult to come back from.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Athertonian » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:20 pm

It's ok saying don't sack him yet, agreed but, he did assemble this crop of players. From what I've seen so far these players are simply not good enough to play the way Evatt wants. Oldham had significantly less possession than we but, they could have been four up at half time.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:32 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:20 pm
It's ok saying don't sack him yet, agreed but, he did assemble this crop of players. From what I've seen so far these players are simply not good enough to play the way Evatt wants. Oldham had significantly less possession than we but, they could have been four up at half time.
This short but effective post brings up two big questions, neither of which are immediately answerable.

First, how much say did each man in the Evatt/Phoenix pantomime horse have over signings? I note Evatt said “That wasn’t a team of mine out there. We don’t set them up like that, we don’t ask them to play like that, it was gutless. And it’s really hurt me to see that." Now obviously he and his coaches do set the team up etc but I just wonder whether the first phrase was a bit close to the knuckle. Anyways, however much choice he had over signings from 0% to 100%, he's the coach and manager and that's where the buck stops.

Which brings me on to the second question. Bradford, Forest Green and Oldham have all come to our house and played a back three with passing football but much much much quicker on transitions - a lot more like Swindon were last season which maximised Doyle. When will Evatt make his team more decisive in the final third?

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:27 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:12 pm
I think for anyone to even think about getting rid now is madness.
Any danger of relegation and he has to go for me. Not my money but the financial chasm of dropping out of the football league at this stadium doesn’t beat thinking about.

If we were a couple of wins in, it was hit and miss and we hadn’t quite hit our stride then yeah fair enough stick with him. But it’s been a shambles.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:38 pm

DJBlu wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:54 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:16 am
Evatt has never really done it or faced pressure or had to navigate out of a situation like this.
Such a broad assumption, he didn't get Barrow playing the promotion football after 9 games in charge. I'm sure his 1st season in charge was a walk in the park? Barrow fans will not have been happy when they were losing at home in his infancy as manager. Ian Evatt is here on merit and will hopefully get it right.

All this talk of giving the man time is just fans playing lip service to an underlying issue in football in general.

I'm sure West Ham fans wanted Moyes sacking at half time last night.

We're going to have to trust the board and the man in charge. I'm sure everything mentioned on here Evatt will be aware of, and I hope is trying to solve.
With all respect to Barrow the pressure of going into Barrow who hadn't done anything in decades and had no expectation on his shoulders whatsoever is entirely different to the pressures of managing Bolton Wanderers.

We've seen it time and time again - managers do well at other clubs, come here and its a completely different ball game. Some of it is because they just got lucky at their old clubs but have no real managerial skills, other times its the pressure of this job and expectancy. I don't want Evatt sacked I want him helped. The bottom line is that however you spin it, the start has been wholly unacceptable in terms of results and performances. Evatt himself has said that - its not a secret. We may acknowledge it takes time to build but there is not one single Bolton fan who prior to the season starting would have said we'll lose 7 out of the first 9 and made out that was ok. Especially the manor of how we're performing and losing games.

The problem with Evatt is a lack of data - he's never been in this scenario before. I see it as rather analogous to Freedman - he turned Palace round and had them flying - came here with limited experience but lots of talk and good ideas and intentions but it didn't translate. Evatt to me right now is the same. Perhaps they lack the skills to just up sticks and take a theory or a system with them and embed it. Or perhaps its just too hard for anyone to do under the pressure. But ultimately we need to find a way to start getting some results now, not in 10 games time. And therefore anyone who has experience who can work with Evatt and Atherton and help add something would be welcome for me.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Athertonian » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:06 pm

Is it the manager? I find it strange we have been one of the worst teams in the league for the past few seasons?

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:27 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:06 pm
Is it the manager? I find it strange we have been one of the worst teams in the league for the past few seasons?
We have to stick with Evatt, he's one of the brightest young managers around and is trying to change the whole mentality at the club - its only 6 league games ffs. I agree that its currently not working and is embarrassing to be a BWFC fan, we don't look good in any area of the pitch & I suspect that he may need to change his possession based strategy & probably the formation to get results this season - I also think that we will finish mid table.

Next season is when we will see real progress under Evatt. I know talk is cheap but I do like what Evatt says and I also like his honesty & openness.

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