Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
Bertie Wooster
Promising
Promising
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:49 am

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:55 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:42 pm
Any player that was showing "standout" in training Bertie , you'd expect might figure in Evatt's thinking. He (Evatt) pretty much has nowt to lose...so I'd guess whatever we saw, Evatt isn't seeing enough of on a day to day basis...
See this is what I don't agree with, apparently according to Evatt we play like Real Madrid in training - but look like Blyth Spartans on match days (BTW Blyth would probably beat us at the moment). Surely its about what you do on match days not in training, a lot of the worlds most talented players didn't train great but when it came to it on match day they performed. Football is about winning games not who puts in the most yards in training, I wonder if Frank Worthington was great during the week in training ?

This is where Phoenix / Evatt have gone wrong, we have a team based on stats not on how their characters and how they perform on the pitch in competitive football matches. As I have said previously a successful team needs a mix of characters & traits not a team of robots.

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:59 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:49 pm
Yeah. Anyone who makes out that with the signings we’ve made that we should be in the lower reaches of league two...sorry but now.
Out of interest, where do you think our squad should be? Let's pretend they're not an entirely new group under a new manager. If we pretend they've played a previous season together under an average manager, where do you think this squad should place in this league?

Bertie Wooster
Promising
Promising
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:49 am

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:03 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:52 pm
Asking a lad of 17 to step in and run the midfield isn't fair, to be honest. If it were a case of needing to add some enthusiasm to an already functioning group then yeah,throw him in. Throwing him in at the minute risks ruining him and it relies on the psychology of the players around him as to whether it'd make or break him. Do we have lads in the current starting pack who Evatt can pull to one side and say "look after this kid on the pitch for 90 minutes"? Judging by some reactions to younger lads misplacing passes etc I'd say not - we seem to have a lot of players who are selfish.

You don't see a lot of support for Gordon when he makes a mistake.
Tell you what let's never play him then and never see if he's good enough or not, if he's good enough he's old enough. You ask the lad if he'd like a few games in the team at League 2 level and I'm sure that we all know the answer. How old was Politic when he played at Salford ? or Peter Reid when he started at Bolton ?

I'll tell you what will ruin him - never getting an opportunity.

irie Cee Bee
Reliable
Reliable
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:55 am

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:03 pm

Indeed Bertie. We dont win games on the training pitch, its what happens in the match. Darcy must be very poor on the training ground. He never gets pick. But we know the heart he has. Much more desire that what I see now every week. Match conditions are very different from the training ground. Nobody on the opposing team cares whether you get hurt or not when they kick you.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 26463
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:08 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:59 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:49 pm
Yeah. Anyone who makes out that with the signings we’ve made that we should be in the lower reaches of league two...sorry but now.
Out of interest, where do you think our squad should be? Let's pretend they're not an entirely new group under a new manager. If we pretend they've played a previous season together under an average manager, where do you think this squad should place in this league?
I mean we’ve got the top scorer from last season. One of the supposedly top players also promoted last season in Sarcevic. Crawford. Delfouneso. From what I’ve seen they alone would comfortably play in many teams in this league. They’ve been god awful for us. But there is enough there to say we shouldn’t be bottom few in league two. And I think if we had an easier structure and worked on service into the box we’d not be where we are even with the same players. Though my main issue is less about tactics and more about the fact that there is no drive or determination or even effort to win games. Perhaps it’s less about ability and more about lack of connection between players or dare I say from players to manager?

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23774
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:09 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:55 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:42 pm
Any player that was showing "standout" in training Bertie , you'd expect might figure in Evatt's thinking. He (Evatt) pretty much has nowt to lose...so I'd guess whatever we saw, Evatt isn't seeing enough of on a day to day basis...
See this is what I don't agree with, apparently according to Evatt we play like Real Madrid in training - but look like Blyth Spartans on match days (BTW Blyth would probably beat us at the moment). Surely its about what you do on match days not in training, a lot of the worlds most talented players didn't train great but when it came to it on match day they performed. Football is about winning games not who puts in the most yards in training, I wonder if Frank Worthington was great during the week in training ?

This is where Phoenix / Evatt have gone wrong, we have a team based on stats not on how their characters and how they perform on the pitch in competitive football matches. As I have said previously a successful team needs a mix of characters & traits not a team of robots.
Don't disagree necessarily, Bertie...that's why I'm suggesting that Evatt must either think what we saw as a decentish game was an absolute one-off, or he generally doesn't think he's ready yet.

Last couple of matches he's not been afraid to roll the dice from the week before, so like I said it'd be a sort on no lose gamble...

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:14 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:03 pm
Tell you what let's never play him then and never see if he's good enough or not, if he's good enough he's old enough. You ask the lad if he'd like a few games in the team at League 2 level and I'm sure that we all know the answer. How old was Politic when he played at Salford ? or Peter Reid when he started at Bolton ?

I'll tell you what will ruin him - never getting an opportunity.
I'm all for giving him games, but he needs a platform and support around him. It's not a case of "let's throw him into a dysfunctional team and hope he fixes it", because that'll be a crapshoot for a promising player's development.

I want to see him, Brockbank, Darcy, Senior etc all get games this season - I don't want us to look to them to rectify stuff that needs fixing on the training pitch with the experienced players.

There's a massive difference between putting a young lad into a side and giving him a job to do and throwing him in in the hope he will run the show. If I see Evatt start to throw young players to the wolves I'll join the "Evatt out" crowd in no time. It'd be no less than sacrificing a young lad to cover for his own failures.

If Tutte, Sarce, Comley etc could be trusted to look after him, great. At the minute they can't look after themselves.

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23774
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:18 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:08 pm
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:59 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:49 pm
Yeah. Anyone who makes out that with the signings we’ve made that we should be in the lower reaches of league two...sorry but now.
Out of interest, where do you think our squad should be? Let's pretend they're not an entirely new group under a new manager. If we pretend they've played a previous season together under an average manager, where do you think this squad should place in this league?
I mean we’ve got the top scorer from last season. One of the supposedly top players also promoted last season in Sarcevic. Crawford. Delfouneso. From what I’ve seen they alone would comfortably play in many teams in this league. They’ve been god awful for us. But there is enough there to say we shouldn’t be bottom few in league two. And I think if we had an easier structure and worked on service into the box we’d not be where we are even with the same players. Though my main issue is less about tactics and more about the fact that there is no drive or determination or even effort to win games. Perhaps it’s less about ability and more about lack of connection between players or dare I say from players to manager?
I reckon 7/8 points at this stage and Ì'd be ok with "something to build on.". We've lost 4 out of 6 having played the bottom team twice...

officer_dibble
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8918
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:19 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:16 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:02 pm
Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:58 pm
Oh and I forgot to add how on earth young Regan Riley can't get into this midfield is behond me - even after only 1 game he's got size, physicality, movement, energy & desire, more than any of those three showed today. Also why are we so lacking in fitness ?, perhaps its not fitness, perhaps its desire - almost every goal we concede you can see players ambling / strolling back leaving their player free.
Bang on...he’s shown more bollocks in one game than the rest of the midfield has all season. Unfortunately we can’t rely on him - I’d kill for a lower league Karl Henry to disrupt the opposition and organise our shower.
I'd kill for any of the players to show just a modicum of passion & desire to win a game of football. Also I'm not sure what you mean by 'we can't we rely on him' - how do we know if we don't play him, he could become the next McAteer ? we need energy & drive in midfield and this lad looks like he has it.

We are talking League 2 here, if he can't get a game or two in our current bottle less, slow as feck midfield then he should be asking his agent for a move ASAP.
He’s 17 not 21...he’s in our ‘academy’ for a reason, unfortunately. I think it’s OTT to expect him to turn out and show up to a league of grown men all season. McAteer is a bob on example of what we should be looking at - older players bombed out of top flight clubs at a point where they are sink or swim. I genuinely think saying yep stick Riley in and rely on him will probably break him - he warrants a go (as does D’Arcy) but no pressure.

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:21 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:08 pm
I mean we’ve got the top scorer from last season. One of the supposedly top players also promoted last season in Sarcevic. Crawford. Delfouneso. From what I’ve seen they alone would comfortably play in many teams in this league. They’ve been god awful for us. But there is enough there to say we shouldn’t be bottom few in league two. And I think if we had an easier structure and worked on service into the box we’d not be where we are even with the same players. Though my main issue is less about tactics and more about the fact that there is no drive or determination or even effort to win games. Perhaps it’s less about ability and more about lack of connection between players or dare I say from players to manager?
Last part first, yeah the main issue for us is lack of connection. Managers to players and players to each other.

I think we are a team that, when settled, I'd expect to finish top half under a decent manager. But the difference between a top half team and the dregs in this league is fractions. That's why I expected this kind of start. I don't think we're a squad that's too good for this league, I think we are a division 4 squad all day long. We are currently a division 4 squad with, as you say, no connections and no stability. With work a few of these players might be good enough to play up a division or even two, but we are not an amazing group of talent held back from greatness.

I'd say this squad could, in theory, get promoted - but the manager would need to play a blinder.

BWFC_Insane
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 26463
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:28 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:21 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:08 pm
I mean we’ve got the top scorer from last season. One of the supposedly top players also promoted last season in Sarcevic. Crawford. Delfouneso. From what I’ve seen they alone would comfortably play in many teams in this league. They’ve been god awful for us. But there is enough there to say we shouldn’t be bottom few in league two. And I think if we had an easier structure and worked on service into the box we’d not be where we are even with the same players. Though my main issue is less about tactics and more about the fact that there is no drive or determination or even effort to win games. Perhaps it’s less about ability and more about lack of connection between players or dare I say from players to manager?
Last part first, yeah the main issue for us is lack of connection. Managers to players and players to each other.

I think we are a team that, when settled, I'd expect to finish top half under a decent manager. But the difference between a top half team and the dregs in this league is fractions. That's why I expected this kind of start. I don't think we're a squad that's too good for this league, I think we are a division 4 squad all day long. We are currently a division 4 squad with, as you say, no connections and no stability. With work a few of these players might be good enough to play up a division or even two, but we are not an amazing group of talent held back from greatness.

I'd say this squad could, in theory, get promoted - but the manager would need to play a blinder.
I don’t buy that. Sam Allardyce once had to sell an entire championship side, replace it with no money and started the season with the likes of Isaiah Rankin making up the numbers. None of the players knew each other. But we won games early on by being organised and disciplined and running through brick walls.

The idea that it’s inevitable I don’t agree with at all, nor do I think we’re bottom half wage budget wise either. Something is wrong way beyond teething troubles. These players aren’t putting the yards in. Either because they are all here cashing in or some other reason. But that needs fixing before anything else. And doesn’t rely on anything other than attitude.

Athertonian
Promising
Promising
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Athertonian » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:29 pm

I don't know what they practice in training but it isn't defending nor sticking the ball in a net.

As many have said, I also didn't expect to walk this league but I expected better.
To be fair, they did play some decent footy, but they're clueless in the last third of the pitch.
I can't see where our next win will come unless this crop of players improve significantly, judging from performances so far, it will be a struggle, big time.

irie Cee Bee
Reliable
Reliable
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:55 am

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:30 pm

I agree Ghost that we have a D4 squad. From the looks of things I Don't know if our Manager is capable of even getting us to mid table. A good manager could get us top 6 with this squad.

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:38 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:28 pm
I don’t buy that. Sam Allardyce once had to sell an entire championship side, replace it with no money and started the season with the likes of Isaiah Rankin making up the numbers. None of the players knew each other. But we won games early on by being organised and disciplined and running through brick walls.

The idea that it’s inevitable I don’t agree with at all, nor do I think we’re bottom half wage budget wise either. Something is wrong way beyond teething troubles. These players aren’t putting the yards in. Either because they are all here cashing in or some other reason. But that needs fixing before anything else. And doesn’t rely on anything other than attitude.
Sam Allardyce is an exceptional manager. For all his failings as a person, he is superb at his job. Sam also had some of the best connections in the British game and Bolton had an established recruitment network. The situations are night and day.

I don't expect Ian Evatt to be as good a manager as Sam. Evatt might think he's destined for greatness, but I just expect him to be alright eventually. That's if he doesn't make too many errors now. Again, as I've said before, I think it'd have needed an exceptional manager to have made a strong start to this season. There is nothing about this club right now that should guarantee anything other than struggle this season. Next season should be a very different story, but I'm not sure we are laying the foundations for that.

officer_dibble
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8918
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:44 pm

We’ve got:
Doyle - last seasons top scorer at this level
Sarcevic -Plymouth player of the year last season
Delaney - league one player last season and before that
Crawford - player most of his career above this level
Fonz - played all (?) of his career above this level
Taft - regular centre half for a reasonable team at this level for a few seasons
Santos - played regularly league one to championship all his career
Jones - regular at league two last season
Comley - regular at this level last few Seasons Plus whatever pass completion percentage stat he had.
Tutte - experienced at this level.

I think the weaknesses (on paper) are keeper and left back/midfield. Other than that it reads as a good squad...not sure what attributes Tobias searches by on champ manager though...

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:51 pm

irie Cee Bee wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:30 pm
I agree Ghost that we have a D4 squad. From the looks of things I Don't know if our Manager is capable of even getting us to mid table. A good manager could get us top 6 with this squad.
I'd say we have plenty of players who could play in top 6 sides. I'm not sure we have the squad to get top 6 playing "Brand Evatt", even if IE was doing better, which is part of the recruitment failures people have mentioned. I'm not honestly sure "failures" is the right word, though. Throwing a full squad together in a couple of months is almost impossible, so I'll reserve judgement for a few windows.

I also don't know if Evatt is capable. I don't think he's been given the best chance to showcase his abilities, but he chose to take the job and he's currently failing at it. If he doesn't pick up fairly soon he'll be looking for another non-league club to turn into 70s Ajax....or writing a self-help book.

For me the manager has created the main issue himself. He says players think they have made it, but he was the one talking that way. "Massive club", "Win every game", "Title challenge", "Win a cup" etc etc. Hes talked about expecting the players to view themselves as elite players for this level, now he's telling them they should be scrapping like non-leaguers who need to prove themselves. If he'd started with a bit of realism maybe we'd have a couple of points more than we do and we'd have run the hard yards.
Last edited by GhostoftheBok on Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 23774
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Worthy4England » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:53 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:44 pm
We’ve got:
Doyle - last seasons top scorer at this level
Sarcevic -Plymouth player of the year last season
Delaney - league one player last season and before that
Crawford - player most of his career above this level
Fonz - played all (?) of his career above this level
Taft - regular centre half for a reasonable team at this level for a few seasons
Santos - played regularly league one to championship all his career
Jones - regular at league two last season
Comley - regular at this level last few Seasons Plus whatever pass completion percentage stat he had.
Tutte - experienced at this level.

I think the weaknesses (on paper) are keeper and left back/midfield. Other than that it reads as a good squad...not sure what attributes Tobias searches by on champ manager though...
I'm not sure that'd be significantly worse than most clubs in this Division. The other this is, we got rid of all that losing mentality....oh.

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:01 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:44 pm
We’ve got:
Doyle - last seasons top scorer at this level
Sarcevic -Plymouth player of the year last season
Delaney - league one player last season and before that
Crawford - player most of his career above this level
Fonz - played all (?) of his career above this level
Taft - regular centre half for a reasonable team at this level for a few seasons
Santos - played regularly league one to championship all his career
Jones - regular at league two last season
Comley - regular at this level last few Seasons Plus whatever pass completion percentage stat he had.
Tutte - experienced at this level.

I think the weaknesses (on paper) are keeper and left back/midfield. Other than that it reads as a good squad...not sure what attributes Tobias searches by on champ manager though...
Santos got relegated to non-league. Tutte was in the reserves at Morcambe. Jones and Taft were also-rans in this league most of the time. Delaney was not a good League One player, let's be honest. Sarce's best season of his career saw him as a good League Two player.

We've got two or three players who could be in League One and the rest are here on merit.

It's no more than a decent League Two squad. When you throw in all the surrounding issues, you get the mess we are in.

DJBlu
Site Admin
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:38 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by DJBlu » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:17 pm

These players are cracking under the pressure. Expectations are high and they are failing to deliver. Downward spiral.

They aren't terrible players individually however they stink as a team. Maybe take the expectation off their shoulders. Come in and say look let's take it one game at a time and build the confidence in the team.

A side note.

Fans not being there is a massive issue as the likes of Sarcevic are show boaters and feed off the energy of a crowd. I'd even go as far to say we'd have got a result today if we'd had the crowd after the equalizer.

GhostoftheBok
Dedicated
Dedicated
Posts: 1095
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:19 pm

I feel like I'm not explaining myself very well, mostly due to being angry about the result today; so I'll try and be brief.

This season, for me, was always a write off. I didn't expect to go up. I wanted to see us stabilise in League Two (retain a core of our signings from this season and pushing through some of the kids) and I think if we do that we will get promoted next season. It might be that if we sack IE now and bring in some hoofball clogger of a manager who has been around the block that we may well drag out results and guarantee ourselves midtable, but I also think that if we do that we will find ourselves midtable next season too. The club needs to rebuild its identity and rebuilding it as a "beautiful game" club is the way to go. Doing that, with the dross we were bound to have to sign with the embargo etc, was always going to make us a basket case early doors. If we can avoid a death spiral we will be better in 3 years than if we cut loose now due to panic over the results. The lack of spine is the most concerning part and could be terminal.

If Evatt looks like getting us relegated a bit further into the season then they will have to have a rethink. For now, I hate every minute of it - but I also saw it coming and I'm not all that worried. Angry...fecking furious at times...but not worried. The one thing that does worry me is that Evatt seems to have genuinely not seen it coming, which may mean he is a "drink the kool-aid" type and not just a bluff and bluster sort. If he really does believe all the bullshit we may be in trouble, because I maintain this situation was bloody obvious and if he hasn't planned for it then he will walk himself into a sacking.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 19 guests