Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by nicholaldo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:07 pm

I can't accept that it's just a matter of them needing to show more passion. It seems to me that they desperately lack confidence.

We had to effectively build a whole squad from nothing in one summer and decided to experiment by surrounding a core of provably good players with unproven, inexperienced potential we hoped we could develop. As it stands tonight, that experiment is a failing one.

I think anyone suggesting they expected things to be quite this bad are overststing the case somewhat, but it does seem naive now to have expected them to be capable of executing the system Evatt wants them to so suddenly. I was uneasy with his public raising of expectations in pre-season, and it probably shouldn't be a surprise if poor performances and poor results have caused heads to drop. With this group of players being so new to each other they don't have much from which draw belief in themselves as a squad, and in some cases, in themselves as individuals. Morale must be on the floor.

This is something I've posted previously, but I think the best thing we could do now is go back to basics and make ourselves harder to beat. We need results immediately and if we can find a way to get them, we can begin to think about evolving from there.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by TonyDomingos » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:36 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:55 pm
Time for another long walk with the dog.

It's been a long walk, D. And you don't even have a dog.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:40 am

DJBlu wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:17 pm
These players are cracking under the pressure. Expectations are high and they are failing to deliver. Downward spiral.

They aren't terrible players individually however they stink as a team. Maybe take the expectation off their shoulders. Come in and say look let's take it one game at a time and build the confidence in the team.

A side note.

Fans not being there is a massive issue as the likes of Sarcevic are show boaters and feed off the energy of a crowd. I'd even go as far to say we'd have got a result today if we'd had the crowd after the equalizer.
This doesn’t make sense. They can’t handle the pressure but they’d be better if fans were there - Christ I can only imagine the pressure after even fifteen minutes of the dross we are serving up with a crowd in.

Evatt has said twice now that the players aren’t trying because they think being here means they’ve made it. That’s not pressure. That’s laziness, complacency and poor character. I sense they need telling in no uncertain terms what is expected of them individually and as a group. All this talk of training like Real Madrid...it just sounds too nice. We are in a muck and nettles fight now. Forget the pretty stuff and stand up to it.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Jim_McDonuts » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:29 am

TonyDomingos wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:36 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:55 pm
Time for another long walk with the dog.

It's been a long walk, D. And you don't even have a dog.
:D
one of the few bright notes in yet another absolute downer of a thread.
Big shout to the fellow equally wailing and gnashing lurkers.

This sucks so bad...

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by The_Gun » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:02 am

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... ssion=true

Evatt on the defensive regarding not giving Darcy a chance. Personally, I couldn't give a feck if half of these lads played like Zidane every day in training, because they're absolutely awful on match days. Last time I checked, there are no league points awarded for training.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by nelson66 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:24 am

Get em in training Monday morning
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:50 am

The_Gun wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:02 am
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/1 ... ssion=true

Evatt on the defensive regarding not giving Darcy a chance. Personally, I couldn't give a feck if half of these lads played like Zidane every day in training, because they're absolutely awful on match days. Last time I checked, there are no league points awarded for training.
Does he not understand that what happens on the pitch match day is the only thing that matters. I don't give a shit if a player leans against the post in training with a case of whyte & mackay and a carton of woodbine if he does the business on the day. Not to say Darcy will do any better, but I'd rather find out than persevering with the hopeless.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:11 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:40 am
DJBlu wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:17 pm
These players are cracking under the pressure. Expectations are high and they are failing to deliver. Downward spiral.

They aren't terrible players individually however they stink as a team. Maybe take the expectation off their shoulders. Come in and say look let's take it one game at a time and build the confidence in the team.

A side note.

Fans not being there is a massive issue as the likes of Sarcevic are show boaters and feed off the energy of a crowd. I'd even go as far to say we'd have got a result today if we'd had the crowd after the equalizer.
This doesn’t make sense. They can’t handle the pressure but they’d be better if fans were there - Christ I can only imagine the pressure after even fifteen minutes of the dross we are serving up with a crowd in.

Evatt has said twice now that the players aren’t trying because they think being here means they’ve made it. That’s not pressure. That’s laziness, complacency and poor character. I sense they need telling in no uncertain terms what is expected of them individually and as a group. All this talk of training like Real Madrid...it just sounds too nice. We are in a muck and nettles fight now. Forget the pretty stuff and stand up to it.

That's what he says, but I'm not sure I believe it. It comes across to me as the comments of a man deflecting the blame because his own ideas aren't working. I can agree that they lack self-belief, I can agree that the players might be struggling to play as asked, but I find implausible the idea we've signed a group of players and a good number have decided to just stop putting the work in because they think they've made it.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:28 am

Imagine the look on Allardyce's face who, on watching the highlights, sees a side win a free-kick in a glorious position in the 94th minute, yet the best they can muster is to 'pop it into the mixer' on the 18 yard line hoping for the best, then watch as the opposition's lad runs the entire length of the field to score and snatch victory from what should have been the jaws of defeat.

Evatt can blame player effort or use whatever other blame-deflecting waffle he likes, however, in a league in which (I believe) more goals are scored from set-pieces than by any other means, the fact that our players know nothing better, have no more organisation, have all the set-piece know-how of the Three Pigeons' Sunday morning side is down to him, his coaching staff and nobody else.

Yesterday that incident coupled with his post match remarks truly show Evatt up for what he his - a deluded loudmouth who honestly hasn't a fecking clue what he's doing
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:01 am

Agreed. It’s a shit show. I will say his post match interview sounds like he gets it - but if there is no improvement in the players doing the basics and just general effort on the field in the next couple of games I would get rid. The financial oblivion of another relegation isn’t worth thinking about.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:21 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:28 am
Imagine the look on Allardyce's face who, on watching the highlights, sees a side win a free-kick in a glorious position in the 94th minute, yet the best they can muster is to 'pop it into the mixer' on the 18 yard line hoping for the best, then watch as the opposition's lad runs the entire length of the field to score and snatch victory from what should have been the jaws of defeat.

Evatt can blame player effort or use whatever other blame-deflecting waffle he likes, however, in a league in which (I believe) more goals are scored from set-pieces than by any other means, the fact that our players know nothing better, have no more organisation, have all the set-piece know-how of the Three Pigeons' Sunday morning side is down to him, his coaching staff and nobody else.

Yesterday that incident coupled with his post match remarks truly show Evatt up for what he his - a deluded loudmouth who honestly hasn't a fecking clue what he's doing
I've lost count of the number of times the commentator has said "The big men are coming up from the back" only to ask myself the question "why?". Unless someone is going to hit it towards them and we're up for trying to be first to any knock-down, they might as well stay back and read a book.

But don't forget, plan A was to pass it back to a bloke stood offside...

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:13 pm

TonyDomingos wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:36 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:55 pm
Time for another long walk with the dog.
It's been a long walk, D. And you don't even have a dog.
:mrgreen:
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"Don't you listen to the bad man, Juno, you ARE a real dog."

Yesterday's was a bad game, but after FGR I nearly walked her legs down to the knees...

I dunno. It's not working yet and I spent a lot of yesterday's game wondering how hard-fought a Biggest Disappointment award would be.

I don't think we're miles off overall, but the lack of cohesive thought in the last third of the pitch is frightening. Crawford was crap yesterday but once he went off we had no clue at all.

On that last free-kick – we'd earlier had one in a very similar position that had somehow found its way back via Brockbank to Crellin, and I wasn't the only poster to bewail our inability to get it in the area. But the problem wasn't with the delivery of the ball (although it wasn't excellent), it was with the ease with which they wandered up the other end and scored.

I don't think they're working hard enough for each other. This might be because they're all lazy feckless soft-handed millionaires and so on but I doubt it. More likely that the coaching has been poor or unclear, which is fixable. The passing patterns work up to a point, and that point is attacking midfield. As I said yesterday Comley - who had a good first half then remembered - kept receiving the ball, looking up and seeing Crawford apparently trying to overlap Doyle while Sarcevic hid behind the ref. They're just not offering themselves for the easy but progressive ball. And it ends up with Crawford trying a flick or a long ball which is only ever about 30% likely to work on a good day. And we're not having many good days at all.

I don't know what the answer is. We can't go long because Evatt wasn't hired to do that, it's a somewhat outdated concept and anyway we haven't got That Striker - Delfouneso, maybe maybe. But it does feel like it needs something to happen between manager and players. Sometimes it's a no-holds-barred grievance-airing. Sometimes it's a day out - golden-era Liverpool used to go to the races for a "dog day" at which no topic was undiscussable – and I seem to remember that Rioch took Bolton players to the nags early in his time here. Evatt seems to know the data says his players aren't running enough but sometimes that data doesn't tell you why. He needs to find out and fix it or his career arc is going to take a sickening dive.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:29 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:21 am

But don't forget, plan A was to pass it back to a bloke stood offside...
That made me laugh more than it should have!

I remember a quote from Evatt when he first arrived, about fans wanting more entertainment than just seeing a 1 goal victory by way of a set piece. I'm all for coaches trying to get their teams to play entertaining footy but I'd consider defending and attacking set pieces constitute part of what's known as 'The basics'.

Bruce makes the valid point about how important they are and it was something Allardyce first commented on years ago, and was greatly derided for. My worry with Evatt is, if things were going well on the training ground and behind the scenes, then at least it should be evident in our set pieces. They should be getting better. I dont think they are.
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:40 pm

Small croutons of comfort in the cold-piss soup: yesterday was our second-most attempts on goal of the season and our highest xG, although we did allow our opponents the second-most attempts and second-highest xG of the season.

Average positions: look at the difference between Kioso (30), who is presumably yet to open whatever magic Drink Me potion robs all new signings of their self-belief, and Gordon (3), who has been gulping that shit down.
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Far from coincidentally, we had twice as many attacks and shots from the right as left:
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and for the fourth successive game, the ball spent more time in our defensive third than the opponents'. On that first grab, note how much further forward (and spread out) Oldham's front four are – including impressive left wingback Barnett (no17), who caught my attention with his surname and ever really let it go. His advanced position is particularly impressive given Kioso was pushing forward on his flank. By comparison Gordon perpetually seems to be either timidly hiding near his left centre-back or gormlessly rampaging into an offside position.

If you lose one of your wings, you go round in circles... (Bolton left, Oldham right)
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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:44 pm

Pass map, with us attacking left to right, comparing Gordon's 36 passes (at top, down as far as the one just outside the D) to Kioso's 60. (For the record, 83rd-minute sub Mascoll made two passes.) Note how the mass of Peter K's passes are so much further forward than Gordon's.
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Yes, this is partly because Kioso's heading ability – nobody, not even any of the six centre-backs, had more aerial duels than his 7 – made him an out-ball. But shouldn't Gordon's pace? This isn't a character assassination because it isn't just about him being sub-par - he's not being used correctly by manager and team-mates.

He's not the only one. Again, Doyle had one shot all day, from outside the box. Gnahoua had as many, and he only came on in the 77th minute. Crawford had four times as many, and he went off for Gnahoua. Doyle's shot count was a third of Fonz's, which was still only as many as Oldham's left wingback. It's not good enough.

Again, I think the midfield isn't working properly. We seemed to revert from the 3-4-3, and here are the pass maps (attacking left to right) for first Comley (52 passes), then Crawford (48) and then Sarcevic (51):
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Comley's are where you'd expect, tucked in behind, and Sarcevic's range slightly to the right, which might explain or reflect our lopsided dependence on Peter K's wing. Crawford, though, doesn't really mirror Sarcevic's "drift" - and certainly doesn't match his penetration: there's almost nothing happening in our inside-left channel to worry Oldham, who can already relax that nothing's coming down the wing.

I've said before that I'd like our midfield to flip - Crawford isn't working as the "10" so I'd like us to play with one holder (Tutte or Comley) and two others, presumably Sarcevic and Crawford, linking midfield and attack as "number 8s". There were signs yesterday that Sarcevic, possibly through improved fitness, is starting to threaten better performances. Sadly I can't say the same about Ali. I don't think he's become a bad player overnight, but I don't think he's playing well: I think he's often overthinking things, trying the low-percentage glory ball, mirroring Doyle's muddle-headed determination to Just Do Something. I'd like to see him on Tuesday play in that slightly refined position, leftish but operating between halfway and the box's edge. And if he can't, then we should try someone else.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:15 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:11 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:40 am
DJBlu wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:17 pm
These players are cracking under the pressure. Expectations are high and they are failing to deliver. Downward spiral.

They aren't terrible players individually however they stink as a team. Maybe take the expectation off their shoulders. Come in and say look let's take it one game at a time and build the confidence in the team.

A side note.

Fans not being there is a massive issue as the likes of Sarcevic are show boaters and feed off the energy of a crowd. I'd even go as far to say we'd have got a result today if we'd had the crowd after the equalizer.
This doesn’t make sense. They can’t handle the pressure but they’d be better if fans were there - Christ I can only imagine the pressure after even fifteen minutes of the dross we are serving up with a crowd in.

Evatt has said twice now that the players aren’t trying because they think being here means they’ve made it. That’s not pressure. That’s laziness, complacency and poor character. I sense they need telling in no uncertain terms what is expected of them individually and as a group. All this talk of training like Real Madrid...it just sounds too nice. We are in a muck and nettles fight now. Forget the pretty stuff and stand up to it.

That's what he says, but I'm not sure I believe it. It comes across to me as the comments of a man deflecting the blame because his own ideas aren't working. I can agree that they lack self-belief, I can agree that the players might be struggling to play as asked, but I find implausible the idea we've signed a group of players and a good number have decided to just stop putting the work in because they think they've made it.
The reason they aren’t putting the yards in may not be because they are all shits...we might not have the right blend of characters...they might just not believe in the system...they might hate Evatt or each other or likely a combination of all those things plus a dozen other reasons.

But the bottom line for me is if they were all fighting for each other and the manager we’d be far better off. That’s damning however you look at it.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Bertie Wooster » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:27 pm

Apparently Oldham had 10 new players starting yesterday & a new manager - so basically the same as us, and I hadn't heard of any of them, yet they had a lot more chances than we did and looked far more dangerous going forward even though they were bottom of the league.

It has to be something to do with not having the right mix of players to play the way Evatt wants to play effectively, they are trying but collectively just don't have the attributes & ability to play that way - to make Evatt's brand of football work you need players who are fitter than the opposition, press higher up the pitch, move the ball quicker & play at a decent tempo, and so far I haven't see any of this in our games or by any of our players, in fact its exactly the opposite. We have a good enough squad to be mid table in league 2 but perhaps not playing the way Evatt wants to play, so for this season he may have to try and find a system to get the best out of this squad of players.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:29 pm

I know I’m a broken record but I’m not having that there’s a footballer in Gordon waiting to get out. He’s fecking clueless. He has the positional sense of the hot dog seller, and spends so long looking behind himself I actually wonder if he has his shirt on back to front. Quite possibly one of the worst players to wear the shirt for more than the odd game when it’s realized. Mascoll must be a shocker. And if he is, why wasn’t it sorted. Chicksen was on a free transfer at the start of the season - we released him in January - a decision that clearly was done by Phoenix (not on his spreadsheet) And one that made Keith Hill look even more insane.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:27 pm
Apparently Oldham had 10 new players starting yesterday & a new manager - so basically the same as us, and I hadn't heard of any of them, yet they had a lot more chances than we did and looked far more dangerous going forward even though they were bottom of the league.
Pretty much the point I've been making Bertie. Most teams this division have at least half a team completely different than last season. So it's sort of fire starting gun and "they're off" and we're banging on about players who aren't match fit yet and crying over coulda/shoulda.

Get on with it already and make the best of what we have.

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Re: Oldham or fold em, but no full house in sight..

Post by irie Cee Bee » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:14 pm

I somehow do not believe this "Training like Real Madrid" thing. Unless the people who make the video training clip turn up late and miss those Real Madrid highlights I see nothing like that. In fact, when I watched the Thursday clip I saw some players miscontrolling simple balls bouncing a yard off their feet when they get it. I remember saying that to myself when I saw it that I could control a football better than that. Players cant just transform overnight from Renaldo to s... in 2 days. And why do we have 4 defenders on the bench and no goalkeeper. Why is Baptiste there when Greenwich is already there as a Center Half? Is Alexander not training well? Is the person to go in goal if Cremlin gets hurt better than Alexander? And who might that be? Evatt is rolling the dice just like how he runs of his mouth about positive thinking secret and speaking it into being a la Colchester.

I want Evatt to do well, but I have an awful feeling in the pit of my stomach that we have been conned. I would have imagine that by now we would be rolling in Evatts style football. He is blaming the players. A poor workman blames his tools which he bought! I hope to God for his sake, and ours, that we win against his old club. If we lose, my worst fears would become a reality...that we have been conned into believing that he is more than a non-league manager.

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