Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Where fellow sufferers gather to share the pain, longing and unrequited transfer requests that make being a Wanderer what it is...

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:56 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:52 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:46 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:15 am
I'm not sure which of the young lads would fit into the Tutte role (specifically) as opposed to a midfield role (in general). I reckon most folks will have seen a few goes from Darcy - it's not him for Tutte, in my book. Folks may have seen a game/half a game of Riley and Thomason - on which they've managed to declare them better than Comely / White. We just need Andranik back now. There's generally a reason, the manager who sees these people day in, day out isn't putting them in for starts. If they were all that and a bag of chips, it would be stupid of a manager to ignore them.

White for me was playing better before his injury. But he did OK at weekend. We lost "something" compared to a Tutte performance, and even looking at a solid 3-0 win, we didn't create owt on the left Delaney/Jones/Crawford, nor did we create much through the middle. The right was fine, with Baptiste/Kioso/Sarcevic. As you say, Southend looked like they were ahead in the midfield, 2nd half for periods of the game.

I wonder whether Sarcevic could drop into the Tutte role, and look to replacing the more attacking role with maybe Darcy where Sarce normally plays...
For me Sarcevic is our best attacking threat from midfield so I'd be looking to release him more rather than curtail what he does. Crawford should be played a bit deeper and be told to perform as he did last season with some all action efforts rather than the limp and a little ineffective showings he's mainly put in this season. He was all over the pitch with energy last season and picked lots up from deep - we need a bit of that from him now. I'd probably just put Comley in tbh because he offers the most balance but be interesting to see Riley/Thommason from the bench because in January we'll need to sign a midfield player so be good to assess what these younger lads can offer.
In an ideal, injury free world, I wouldn't be contemplating moving Sarcevic into a more defensive role. We're not in that world at the moment.
Yes but keep our best midfield player where he wants/needs to play and tinker around that for me. Sarcevic scores goals so I'd leave him as far forward as possible.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:05 am

Aye but Baptiste looked like he needed a wheelchair to get about at the start of the season, now he’s bombing on like Cafu! All these players suffered with a new set of teammates/ new manager / not having played football in 6 months. Comley if he’s not up to it now he won’t be - at least we will know. Whites not even our player so I’m not particularly arsed in the long term. If he’s the best option in the short term fine...

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am

Ok so back to the question you started out with - which was who to play DM. I'm less convinced about Comley than White at the moment, and I don't know enough about Riley/Thomason to take a decent swing at either. Which sorta leave you where you started with from a defensive perspective. I don't think, from what I've seen, Comley in there is generally better than White in there.

Can't quite work out whether Dibs is against loans in general or just some specific ones. :-)

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:37 am

See, I think we're all in agreement that there's no ready-made replacement for Tutte amongst our midfielders - that the options are basically incapable of winning the ball in the middle of the pitch. As such, I think if I was Mr Evatt I'd be spending this week seeing who out of the defensive options might fit. Could be an excellent opportunity for one of them.
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:09 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:37 am
See, I think we're all in agreement that there's no ready-made replacement for Tutte amongst our midfielders - that the options are basically incapable of winning the ball in the middle of the pitch. As such, I think if I was Mr Evatt I'd be spending this week seeing who out of the defensive options might fit. Could be an excellent opportunity for one of them.
Do you mean playing a defender in midfield? I'm sure Santos could do a job there, but clearly we can't move him from where he is. Of the back-up players there don't look to be any obvious candidates.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:13 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 am
Can't quite work out whether Dibs is against loans in general or just some specific ones. :-)
I like good ones! I’m not convinced White is a player that will end up playing league football for his career if I’m honest. No point loaning players if they don’t improve what we have and it’s just irritating to see us train someone up if we don’t benefit. If that goalkeeper ends up being Fleetwoods number one (long shot) I’ll be annoyed he made his mistakes with us!

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by malcd1 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:49 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:09 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:37 am
See, I think we're all in agreement that there's no ready-made replacement for Tutte amongst our midfielders - that the options are basically incapable of winning the ball in the middle of the pitch. As such, I think if I was Mr Evatt I'd be spending this week seeing who out of the defensive options might fit. Could be an excellent opportunity for one of them.
Do you mean playing a defender in midfield? I'm sure Santos could do a job there, but clearly we can't move him from where he is. Of the back-up players there don't look to be any obvious candidates.
What about someone like Kioso? I know the right hand side is settled and probably our strongest part of the team but would he be a better bet than White or Comley?
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by LeverEnd » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:36 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:09 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:37 am
See, I think we're all in agreement that there's no ready-made replacement for Tutte amongst our midfielders - that the options are basically incapable of winning the ball in the middle of the pitch. As such, I think if I was Mr Evatt I'd be spending this week seeing who out of the defensive options might fit. Could be an excellent opportunity for one of them.
Do you mean playing a defender in midfield? I'm sure Santos could do a job there, but clearly we can't move him from where he is. Of the back-up players there don't look to be any obvious candidates.
If anyone I'd think Jones would be most likely. He's out of position as it is, but not sure about trusting Mascoll or Gordon on the left.
They have to just try to get the best out of white or Comley I think.
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:40 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:36 pm
The_Gun wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:09 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:37 am
See, I think we're all in agreement that there's no ready-made replacement for Tutte amongst our midfielders - that the options are basically incapable of winning the ball in the middle of the pitch. As such, I think if I was Mr Evatt I'd be spending this week seeing who out of the defensive options might fit. Could be an excellent opportunity for one of them.
Do you mean playing a defender in midfield? I'm sure Santos could do a job there, but clearly we can't move him from where he is. Of the back-up players there don't look to be any obvious candidates.
If anyone I'd think Jones would be most likely. He's out of position as it is, but not sure about trusting Mascoll or Gordon on the left.
They have to just try to get the best out of white or Comley I think.
Yeah Jones is a decent shout actually. If Brockbank were fit I also think he'd be worth a crack.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:32 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:09 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:37 am
See, I think we're all in agreement that there's no ready-made replacement for Tutte amongst our midfielders - that the options are basically incapable of winning the ball in the middle of the pitch. As such, I think if I was Mr Evatt I'd be spending this week seeing who out of the defensive options might fit. Could be an excellent opportunity for one of them.
Do you mean playing a defender in midfield? I'm sure Santos could do a job there, but clearly we can't move him from where he is. Of the back-up players there don't look to be any obvious candidates.
I do, Fella, yes. I'm not talking about moving any of the current backline into CM, but I think we should be testing squad players there in this week's training sessions to at least explore the possibility of one of them possibly being able to step in. Being as we've no readymade replacement from our crop of midfielders I guess we have to weigh up other potential options. If none are up to it then White gets the nod but it has to be worth exploring, I think.
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by sonicthewhite » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:55 pm

It was interesting to note that in tonights Salford game Turnbull played as a DM alongside Jason Lowe. I also remember two Spanish CB's of world renown who were hopeless at Bolton as a CB but were transformed when moved forward in to that DM role :wink: So it can be done. I'm actually wondering if Greenidge could be a possibility?
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:05 am

I think I’ve only seen Greenidge play once, but feck me, he didn’t look close to being good enough to play for us in any position, let alone midfield.

Whilst I had basically written off Comley entirely, with the new found confidence that seems to be flowing through the team, I suppose there is a chance he’d up his game if given another chance now. I’d probably be in favour of trying him next to Sarce on Saturday.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:43 am

The idea of turning a defender into a defensive midfielder is a solid one, and it's been done many times before, but it requires precisely the right type. I think we Bolton fans may have been spoiled by the successful experiments (Warhurst as well as Campo/Hierro) into thinking it's easy, but I can tell you from coaching players (and playing myself...) that it's not always thus.

You have to see danger extraordinarily quickly; to be proactive rather than reactive. For example, Santos is great as the spare man in the back three because he has the recovery pace to mop up, but play him ten yards further forward and I suspect that opponents would just pass around him. Lest this be seen as sullying the great man, let me say I think the same would have applied to Gary Cahill, who was similarly proposed for a defensive midfield job. It doesn't make you a worse player, just a different one.

Given you're nicking and distributing the ball right in the thick of it, you have to be able to pass in tight situations, which isn't always the case with all our defenders (or, given some performances thus far this season, midfielders). True, not all defensive midfielders do this – some keep it very simple, in a Makelele style, just getting and giving short and backwards - but I suspect that High-Tempo Evatt wants a faster transition from defence to attack, which requires forward passing of the kind Tutte does far more often than, say, White or Comley (so far).

You also have to be of indomitable body and spirit. There's no point being a defensive shield for half the game and either running out of legs or concentration. As the game goes on, the above two points – snuffling danger and passing constructively – can get harder, especially with the opponent usually bringing on fresh players. Once the body tires, so does the mind; this is probably why Tutte only played 90 minutes once in his first nine appearances.

Given those high bars, who would I trust of the current options? Gethin Jones has the brain, the lungs, the passing and tackling, but then we'd have another hole to fill on the left - would Evatt trust Gordon or Mascoll? I certainly wouldn't trust either of those two in defensive midfield. Greenidge I don't know enough about but would be worried he's more about being reactive than proactive. Brockbank would doubtless give it a go but he's injured. Taft might fancy it but that'd be some elevation from third-choice left-footed centre-back.

I still think White is the likeliest short-term and hopefully Comley longer-term - he is indeed on a two-year contract, Dibs, and it's possible he could be improved in the way we've enjoyed from others like Santos and Baptiste. Worth noting that Comley hasn't started any of the nine first-team games since Barrow, and indeed has only made two brief appearances (appearing on 76 and 86 minutes), whereas White has totted up 296 minutes in the last eight first-team games, appearing in six of them, coming on at HT at Orient, starting against Mansfield and Crewe (plus Newcastle in the Sherpa dead rubber) and of course being Tutte's direct replacement last weekend. I'd say White's in the seat – but Evatt will be assessing options.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:48 am

I see you were all back on the sauce when the pubs reopened! Christ alive.

As much as I'd love to see one of the younger players get the nod from the very limited bits so far they look all to be more attacking midfielders rather than being able to do that job (maybe Riley could?)

I'd go White, as Comley doesn't look up to it at all to me, whereas I think there's a player in White. Both have this frustrating tendency that they look like they actively want to go backwards rather than forwards. Comley in particular gets in trouble at least once a game by turning back into trouble when there's no need.

I broadly agree with Dib's point on loanees. Crellin was either going to be a disaster on our time or do well and go and play for Fleetwood. White is the sort of loan I like though. At his age and previous level I think it's highly unlikely he's going to make it at Blackburn in the Champ, so it's a little try before you buy for both of us. I could see him here permanently. He looked ok before his injury (better than Comley, not as good as Tutte) but struggled since. He'd get the nod for me.
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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:33 am

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:48 am
I broadly agree with Dib's point on loanees. Crellin was either going to be a disaster on our time or do well and go and play for Fleetwood. White is the sort of loan I like though. At his age and previous level I think it's highly unlikely he's going to make it at Blackburn in the Champ, so it's a little try before you buy for both of us. I could see him here permanently. He looked ok before his injury (better than Comley, not as good as Tutte) but struggled since. He'd get the nod for me.
Agreed on White's chances after this season. He's not a bad player, Evatt likes him, it's an easy move if it works out, and as you say about Blackburn - well they've let him out on loan for the last two years of his contract, so he's obviously not near their first team; I suppose if he stormed this division they might see how much further he could develop, but he's 24 in May, not a teenager. You can see why Evatt hired him: an easy squad-boosting freebie in summer if it works out; even if not, a proselytizer from the Barrow days as another voice on the training ground helping get the message across.

On loans generally, there are several types. Loans to buy like White. Loans you might never buy, like Sturridge, can have their place - IF the player's good enough for a short-term boost; I expected one or two more of these given Evatt's footballing style, but at the time we sought them we weren't very good.

In between those, loans of middling youngish players you probably won't buy are understandably annoying. I do think we might have signed Crellin permanently in the future if all had gone to plan (he excels, we get promoted, borrow him again next year if he's not first choice, then he's out of contract in 20022). However, I think we can safely say it didn't go to plan...

Out of interest, where do people see Kioso in two or three years' time? If it was Definitely Not Here, why are we helping out Luton? Football's a results business, and Kioso's helping us out on the pitch. Not many complained when we helped "develop" Jack Wilshere, because he made us better. Lots complained about Benik Afobe, because he didn't. If Crellin had been a wonderkid, I dare say we'd have been a lot happier about things – but even at the time and definitely with hindsight, goalkeeping was the least thorough and most risky department in summer recruitment.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by DJBlu » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:33 am

Sonny Graham is still with us isn't he?

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:39 am

DJBlu wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:33 am
Sonny Graham is still with us isn't he?
I believe so, but only theoretically. Evatt gave him like 13 minutes in pre-season – 11 at Bamber Bridge, two injury-time appearances at Loughborough and Accrington – but he hasn't been in any matchday 18 since, not even the Sherpa Van ones. Maybe he'll go to Tranmere next month...

Update from Evatt's morning presser: Shaun Miller is out until March or April. Given the fitness requirements (and his one-year contract) he's basically done for the season as anything but a cameo sub.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by The_Gun » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:10 pm

I personally hadn't seen all that much from Miller, so wouldn't be too concerned that he's going to be out. Of course it does leave us needing a reliable third choice striker, so that now becomes another essential gap to fill in Jan. Perhaps this would be a good chance for Evatt/Phoenix to take a flyer on a hungry young striker from the Champ/Prem?

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:42 pm

The_Gun wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:10 pm
I personally hadn't seen all that much from Miller, so wouldn't be too concerned that he's going to be out. Of course it does leave us needing a reliable third choice striker, so that now becomes another essential gap to fill in Jan. Perhaps this would be a good chance for Evatt/Phoenix to take a flyer on a hungry young striker from the Champ/Prem?
Miller has looked decent in flashes, but that's all we've seen: in our 20 games this season (he joined just before we started) his on-pitch minutes have been 9 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 20 29 17 72 14 13 0, a threadbare total of 199 minutes (plus injury time). Given he's going to miss the next 25 or so matches (it's 23 to the end of March) I think we can all safely say it's a gamble that didn't work. But sometimes they don't, sometimes they do - Tutte hasn't managed more than 21 appearances in any of his last four seasons, so he could have gone the same way. Let's hope he doesn't.

The Miller thing isn't so much a problem for the lack of him as for the lack of options beyond Doyler and Fonz. Gnahoua looks willing but limited. Isgrove is a winger who doesn't look comfortable at 10, which often brings the double problem of forcing a formation change to a riskier 3-4-3. Amoateng, for all the pre-season noise, is a kid who hasn't even forced his way into the Sherpa Van squads past Finlay (Hurford-)Lockett and Mitch Henry.

Given that paucity of options – and particularly if our recent run of form continues to January – if I were a manager at a club with a decent Academy player needing to step up into League football, I'd be open to overtures from Evatt/Phoenix. We wouldn't have to overpromise X starts per month: with two thirtysomething first-choice strikers, there'd be minutes off the bench and possibly starts, given the increasing possibility of injuries. Evatt can sell the "good football" aspect, and managers of local Big-Academy clubs could be reasonably content the move wouldn't be too risky for their precious youth's social welfare (if at the Manchester clubs, they could quite possibly remain in the same digs).

The big problem is whether some of them will already be lent out. Look, for instance, at the number of fledglings Qatar City have got out on loan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancheste ... ut_on_loan - I count 29, from Jack Harrison at Leeds right down to Paul's lad* Louie Moulden at Gloucester City. #kidfarming

*Among the young forwards Citeh haven't yet loaned out this season are Liam Delap (Rory's lad) and D'Margio Wright-Phillips, son of Sean and thus grandson of Ian Wright. And I wonder why I feel old.

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Re: Making HMS YouKnowWhat ship-shape: Winter 20/21 transfer thread

Post by officer_dibble » Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:07 pm

Shame re Miller looked good to me but he’s never been fit. Moves striker up the list of January priorities behind Goalkeeper I think. Which makes defensive midfielder a position we are more likely to find within the current crop.

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