Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

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nicholaldo
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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:56 am

The formation remained the same. Kioso joined the back three and Isgrove was brought on as a nominal wing-back. In reality, we ended up with a back three, a left wing-back, and a right winger.

I agree with your main point about personnel, though.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:56 am
The formation remained the same. Kioso joined the back three and Isgrove was brought on as a nominal wing-back. In reality, we ended up with a back three, a left wing-back, and a right winger.

I agree with your main point about personnel, though.
It looked a bit more fourish at the back to me, Jones went deeper left with Thomason pushing wider left, Isgrove defo pushed right, but you get into proper semantics I guess at that point as to whether that's 3/4/5 at the back vs 3/4/5 in midfield.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:33 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:15 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:37 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:30 pm
DJBlu wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:07 pm
Anyone else think Crawford might be off?

Bit strange he didn't come on in the second half.
Thought occurred. Also maybe Darcy who seems to be a long way down Evatt's picking order
Two players proven at a higher level. Ok Crawford’s injury may be an issue but I’d suggest not getting the best out of either or both of these lads is a failure.
Not sure how "proven" Darcy is tbf. I know he played a few last season, but getting game time in a team that for most part couldn't put a glove on the opposition is a bit different than proven for me.

But to the point about not getting the best out of players, Steve Eyre in commentary had been pointing out that the system didn't seem to work for neither Crawford nor then Isgrove (it doesn't really work for Brockbank and Jones either and a lot of the time Delf and Doyle are bystanders). I think we went to something more akin to 442 when Baptiste was swapped for Isgrove and whilst we still showed some defensive frailty, we looked better going forward as we weren't entirely swamped in mf.

My view is that you have to tailor the system to the personnel, I've not changed in that view.
Well you know my view....and it’s same as yours. Setup to maximise what you’ve got. We’ve not got the luxury of playing a system regardless or probably even recruiting to a fixed idea of a system. Maximise your best players.

I don’t think we’ve done that. I don’t really see any single advantage to a back three with what we’ve got available.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:45 am

I think he had a dabble at fitting the system to the personnel in the second half. Whatever formation we each think that was, he clearly didn't dump Isgrove on, to randomly stand in that left central position and had him out wider right.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by DJBlu » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:50 am

Doyle yesterday, instrumental in the first 2 goals.

Look how deep he is on Fonz's goal and look where he ends up. Proper put a shift in yesterday.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:07 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:56 am
The formation remained the same. Kioso joined the back three and Isgrove was brought on as a nominal wing-back. In reality, we ended up with a back three, a left wing-back, and a right winger.

I agree with your main point about personnel, though.
It looked a bit more fourish at the back to me, Jones went deeper left with Thomason pushing wider left, Isgrove defo pushed right, but you get into proper semantics I guess at that point as to whether that's 3/4/5 at the back vs 3/4/5 in midfield.

I've just re-watched sections of the footage of the second half again to be certain and Kioso definitely takes up the position on the right of the back three. It's notable just how central he is in comparison to Jones, who continued to break forward from his wing-back position into the opposition half. Isgrove's natural urge to play further forward as a winger left a gaping hole in the area of the pitch where a right-back would normally find himself, but, thankfully, it wasn't taken advantage of.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:37 pm

Commendable diligence. I suspect that gaping hole you mention is why it felt like we had an extra midfielder in and Kioso covering wider (coz Isgrove wasn't there). If we weren't 4 at the back, we probably should've been. The midfield three often feel like they're swamped for significant portions of games.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:31 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:37 pm
Commendable diligence. I suspect that gaping hole you mention is why it felt like we had an extra midfielder in and Kioso covering wider (coz Isgrove wasn't there). If we weren't 4 at the back, we probably should've been. The midfield three often feel like they're swamped for significant portions of games.

I think I'd also be in favour of changing things, temporarily at least. We seemingly have just one bonafide wing-back Evatt trusts and he's now serving a one-match suspension. That's a problem when employing a tactical system that relies on wing-backs to provide the width.

I do, in one sense, admire Evatt's faith and persistence, but he has to be careful not to cross the boundary into stubborness and, currently, it's difficult to shake the sense of there being a degree of self-sabotage about us. We are conceding a lot of goals - only two clubs have conceded more this season, and over the last five matches we've averaged close to three per match. As much as it's about more than just the formation, I can't help thinking our current one is only serving to excacerbate our problems.

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:37 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:31 pm


We are conceding a lot of goals - only two clubs have conceded more this season, and over the last five matches we've averaged close to three per match. As much as it's about more than just the formation, I can't help thinking our current one is only serving to excacerbate our problems.
Aye. Not hard to see where the problems lie. The missing word is "soft" goals. Their first two yesterday were worthy of Marx Brother rating as was the soft lob over our keepers head last week and a couple more.. In comparison, our goals were worked and looked good. !Shooting yourselves in the foot! and "own worst enemies" isn't in it.
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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by nicholaldo » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:12 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:37 pm
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:31 pm


We are conceding a lot of goals - only two clubs have conceded more this season, and over the last five matches we've averaged close to three per match. As much as it's about more than just the formation, I can't help thinking our current one is only serving to excacerbate our problems.
Aye. Not hard to see where the problems lie. The missing word is "soft" goals. Their first two yesterday were worthy of Marx Brother rating as was the soft lob over our keepers head last week and a couple more.. In comparison, our goals were worked and looked good. !Shooting yourselves in the foot! and "own worst enemies" isn't in it.

Yes, and it's why I'm keen to stress that the formation isn't the sole problem (I'm not suggesting anyone else on here is).

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:08 pm

nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:07 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:56 am
The formation remained the same. Kioso joined the back three and Isgrove was brought on as a nominal wing-back. In reality, we ended up with a back three, a left wing-back, and a right winger.

I agree with your main point about personnel, though.
It looked a bit more fourish at the back to me, Jones went deeper left with Thomason pushing wider left, Isgrove defo pushed right, but you get into proper semantics I guess at that point as to whether that's 3/4/5 at the back vs 3/4/5 in midfield.

I've just re-watched sections of the footage of the second half again to be certain and Kioso definitely takes up the position on the right of the back three. It's notable just how central he is in comparison to Jones, who continued to break forward from his wing-back position into the opposition half. Isgrove's natural urge to play further forward as a winger left a gaping hole in the area of the pitch where a right-back would normally find himself, but, thankfully, it wasn't taken advantage of.
WhoScored touchmaps, divided into first 45 v second 45 in this classic Game Of Two Halves Brian, back up Nicho's excellent analysis.

Kioso was on the chalk for most of the first period as we fell back into a rabble of a back five. After the oranges - when we were much more on the front foot (the best stat for this being clearances: 1st half Carlisle 3-18 Bolton, second half Carlisle 9-6 Bolton) - you would expect a RWB to be much further forward, but not Peter K:
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Kioso 1v2.jpg
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.
This is also backed up by a postmatch Evatt quote, which makes sense in view of Nicho's theory:
When you are trying to attack, when you have Peter, Reiss (Greenidge) and Rico (Ricardo Santos) you can almost afford to leave them one v one at the back because they are so quick and powerful.
This would imply, to me at least, that he was still playing a back three but with two overloading centre-backs at a time. Presumably he doesn't trust Delaney as spare man in the same way - hence Greenidge appearing for him.

While Kioso stayed home, Jones pushed on. Here's first half v second half:
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Jones 1v2.jpg
Jones 1v2.jpg (140.67 KiB) Viewed 1390 times

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Re: Can we give the Cumbrians, the blues? Carlisle away Sat 26th Dec.3-0 clock.

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:14 pm

Couple more slides, sit back down... :D

Steve Eyre noted first half that Jones is no winger or attacking wingback but the Aussie-born Welshman certainly joined in up the park. Eyre noted second half that the genuinely left-sided Thomason was dovetailing well on the left with Jones, and the halved-up touchmap backs that up:
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Thomason 1v2.jpg
Thomason 1v2.jpg (144.85 KiB) Viewed 1388 times
.
Again, for comparison, here's the "mirror player" - in this case Sarcevic, playing alongside Tomo as a free 8 in front of Tutte's anchorman. After the break, while Thomason tended to drift left to add width, Sarce - who had more or less stayed in his lane during that difficult first period - began to roam around more, leaving the right to Isgrove while looking for options and quite possibly those shootable free-kicks he buys so well.
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Sarce 1v2.jpg
Sarce 1v2.jpg (152.62 KiB) Viewed 1388 times
So? So we still played a back three but formations are only ever a starting point unless you're playing table football. There's a difference between a defensive back five and what we did in the second half - two overloading centre-backs, two overlapping wingbacks, midfielders looking to add the bodies.

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