The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
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- GhostoftheBok
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The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Tango said in the Pessimism thread that he had his doubts about us keeping Williams past the summer and I've been giving this issue a bit of thought since DSB said something similar. DSB's point, which as usual was entirely correct, was that Williams was the least versatile player in the squad and that in an Evatt side evolving towards extreme flexibility he might become a victim of circumstance.
Whilst I'm in complete agreement with DSB's assessment of William's weaknesses and understand Tango's thinking, I'm of the view that the Williams' lack of versatility is offset by the fact that nobody else in the squad gives us his functionality. If Williams goes we would have to replace him with another Williams, albeit we might be hoping to find a better version.
Regardless of how Evatt's sides line up (5-3-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-2, etc) one thing is consistent, we form a 3-at-the-back at key points in our build-up play. This is achieved in a number of ways:
Firstly we might just play a 3. Obviously that makes sense. Nothing to see here.
Secondly we might play a four in which one of the fullbacks can play as a wide centre back in a 3, pushing the opposite fullback (usually John) very high and bringing the opposite fullback (usually Jones) inside as needed.
Thirdly, when we play a four and both fullbacks bomb on, it's a midfielder who drops in to form the three. It's here that Williams becomes utterly vital to the bedrock patterns and triggers that Evatt has instilled in the side.
When it looked like we might switch almost entirely to a back three I began to see a path to phasing Williams out, as in that system his lack of mobility becomes a huge issue. However, as Evatt has experimented with returning to a four and switching systems within games Williams has once again come to the fore as the fulcrum of ever Wanderers side.
The addition of a player like Jack Iredale might assuage some of the issues in the back four, allowing Wanderers more flexibility in which side they choose to overload in those systems (rather than always having to choose the left with John in the side), but the inability to push both flanks on at key points would remain without a Williams in the midfield to offer the spare man.
When you combine the tactical issues with the fact that he never seems to get wear and tear issues (being kept out this season by two impact injuries) it seems like a no-brainer to keep him around. His attitude is first rate, he's basically always available for selection and he fills a tactical role nobody else can.
In an ideal world we would see a more athletic, more versatile and generally better version of Williams come in and lead us to glory - but in the real world such players are rare at any level. Even if we found one, an injury to that key player would leave us with tactical issues to solve. Given that, it would probably be wise to retain Williams regardless.
I really like MJ, but I don't believe in keeping players around based on sentiment. In MJ's case, I think it's just the best thing to do - unless Evatt is going to evolve us once again over the summer and remove the tactical role he currently fills.
Whilst I'm in complete agreement with DSB's assessment of William's weaknesses and understand Tango's thinking, I'm of the view that the Williams' lack of versatility is offset by the fact that nobody else in the squad gives us his functionality. If Williams goes we would have to replace him with another Williams, albeit we might be hoping to find a better version.
Regardless of how Evatt's sides line up (5-3-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-2, etc) one thing is consistent, we form a 3-at-the-back at key points in our build-up play. This is achieved in a number of ways:
Firstly we might just play a 3. Obviously that makes sense. Nothing to see here.
Secondly we might play a four in which one of the fullbacks can play as a wide centre back in a 3, pushing the opposite fullback (usually John) very high and bringing the opposite fullback (usually Jones) inside as needed.
Thirdly, when we play a four and both fullbacks bomb on, it's a midfielder who drops in to form the three. It's here that Williams becomes utterly vital to the bedrock patterns and triggers that Evatt has instilled in the side.
When it looked like we might switch almost entirely to a back three I began to see a path to phasing Williams out, as in that system his lack of mobility becomes a huge issue. However, as Evatt has experimented with returning to a four and switching systems within games Williams has once again come to the fore as the fulcrum of ever Wanderers side.
The addition of a player like Jack Iredale might assuage some of the issues in the back four, allowing Wanderers more flexibility in which side they choose to overload in those systems (rather than always having to choose the left with John in the side), but the inability to push both flanks on at key points would remain without a Williams in the midfield to offer the spare man.
When you combine the tactical issues with the fact that he never seems to get wear and tear issues (being kept out this season by two impact injuries) it seems like a no-brainer to keep him around. His attitude is first rate, he's basically always available for selection and he fills a tactical role nobody else can.
In an ideal world we would see a more athletic, more versatile and generally better version of Williams come in and lead us to glory - but in the real world such players are rare at any level. Even if we found one, an injury to that key player would leave us with tactical issues to solve. Given that, it would probably be wise to retain Williams regardless.
I really like MJ, but I don't believe in keeping players around based on sentiment. In MJ's case, I think it's just the best thing to do - unless Evatt is going to evolve us once again over the summer and remove the tactical role he currently fills.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
I don’t think MJ should go. What we need is a player who can do his job but is more suited to the 352 system so more mobile and aggressive higher up the pitch which the system demands.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
My somewhat limited experience of modern methods are not why I commented on M'J. Williams, but only what I have seen via T.V. In that case I thought he was too easily dispossessed and muscled off the ball on several occasions. I 'm happy to admit being wrong and accept the opposing reasons given. All players have off spells and such may be the case as I saw it.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
This wasn't remotely a criticism of you, Tango, and I think MJ has had some really poor games recently. I have no doubt you've seen ample issues with his play if you've caught one of those on TV.TANGODANCER wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 1:01 pmMy somewhat limited experience of modern methods are not why I commented on M'J. Williams, but only what I have seen via T.V. In that case I thought he was too easily dispossessed and muscled off the ball on several occasions. I 'm happy to admit being wrong and accept the opposing reasons given. All players have off spells and such may be the case as I saw it.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
A much quicker response than the OP deserves: I’m not anti-MJ right now, but I can see us evolving past him by the 2023/24 season. As with many current Wanderers, I like him a lot and I agree he is currently unmatched in that very specific role; I just think we might trade up at some point in the next three windows. Which makes his current contract length just about right, as with pretty much all those who elapse in June 2023 bar Rico.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
I tend to share this view.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 11:14 pmA much quicker response than the OP deserves: I’m not anti-MJ right now, but I can see us evolving past him by the 2023/24 season. As with many current Wanderers, I like him a lot and I agree he is currently unmatched in that very specific role; I just think we might trade up at some point in the next three windows. Which makes his current contract length just about right, as with pretty much all those who elapse in June 2023 bar Rico.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
What he said!
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Levels are hard to assess. I think of what we’ve got the player I’m most confident in being able to cut it in the championship is Bod. If he were here and fit Fossey.Dave Sutton's barnet wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 11:14 pmA much quicker response than the OP deserves: I’m not anti-MJ right now, but I can see us evolving past him by the 2023/24 season. As with many current Wanderers, I like him a lot and I agree he is currently unmatched in that very specific role; I just think we might trade up at some point in the next three windows. Which makes his current contract length just about right, as with pretty much all those who elapse in June 2023 bar Rico.
After that I think it’s question marks all round. I’m unconvinced by Santos at that level as I’ve explained before. Same with Dapo though and to a lesser extent.
Morley has space to grow. Aimson and Johnston - nope and nope again. John probably can make it in a LWB role. Charles I’m unsure about but could probably do a job.
Going up a level is not linear. It is easier for some players than others to adapt. And the championship is a tough level. L1 to champ is biggest gulf now. By far.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
League One to the Championship really isn't that big a gap at the lower end. Blackpool have thrived and Hull have lost a number of their best players to injuries for decent periods and still stayed up.
There are a lot of basketcase clubs in that division that are throwing money at players and not working on proper projects. So many teams are way less than the sum of their parts.
There are a lot of basketcase clubs in that division that are throwing money at players and not working on proper projects. So many teams are way less than the sum of their parts.
Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Bod has had a cracking start, and long may in continue. And certain players struggle at other clubs then find their home somewhere else.
But he's played 164 games in the Champo across three clubs, and scored 22 goals.
I'm excited for him next year, and think he brings more than just goals. But I'd defo be looking to upgrade him over Santos and Dapo a league up.
But he's played 164 games in the Champo across three clubs, and scored 22 goals.
I'm excited for him next year, and think he brings more than just goals. But I'd defo be looking to upgrade him over Santos and Dapo a league up.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Gap between the average league one team and the average champ team is huge, but not much between the top end of league one and the bottom bit of the champ. I reckon there'll be about 8 teams in league one next year that would have a shot at staying in the champ.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
The play offs to the lowest "top half" club is 24 points. There are a lot of clubs at this level with "almost championship" players who are much, much better organised than a lot of the dross in the division above.Prufrock wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 2:07 pmGap between the average league one team and the average champ team is huge, but not much between the top end of league one and the bottom bit of the champ. I reckon there'll be about 8 teams in league one next year that would have a shot at staying in the champ.
You do have to do some work the summer you go up, absolutely - but it's really not a league of death scenario. The recycling of crap coaches at that level gives decent sides a fighting chance.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
He’s played 160 plus championship games for three teams proving his ability to play there. Versus mixed lower league careers.Prufrock wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 2:04 pmBod has had a cracking start, and long may in continue. And certain players struggle at other clubs then find their home somewhere else.
But he's played 164 games in the Champo across three clubs, and scored 22 goals.
I'm excited for him next year, and think he brings more than just goals. But I'd defo be looking to upgrade him over Santos and Dapo a league up.
Dapo has one season. One where you’d say he’s really shown what he can do. And that’s this.
Santos has to develop the ability to read the game better if he wants to really make it the level above. You can’t rely just on recovery up there and there are countless times this season he’s been found wanting especially in defending the box and switching off.
Bod has come down from the championship whereas Santos and Dapo are trying to add the components to their game that would allow them to play there. They haven’t got there as yet.
I think it’s easy to forget the physical and mental demands on players in that league. And I look at the teams coming down and they have some players who would comfortably be starters for us and arguably our best players. Which to me demonstrates that gap. It’s not unbridgeable but it’s larger in English football than any other now.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
The squad we have currently would be relegated from the Championship, as things stand. That much is true.
Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
I don't think scoring a goal every seven and a bit games as a striker is proving you can play there.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Didn't Kevin Davies score every 8 game for Southampton playing almost 90 games before joining us.. and look what he did. It depends on the role he is asked to play doesn't it?
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Being selected over 160 times for 3 teams under different managers at a level suggests you can play there at least in some capacity and to a certain role.
Dapo scored 1 goal in league two last season.
I’m not claiming Bod would be a top championship player but he’s proven at that level. And looks a class above, visibly so, our other strikers.
I think you are forgetting what that league is.
Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
Sure, and I flagged that at the top. But I don't think anyone would argue Davies had proven it on the basis of what he did at Southampton or Blackburn. But he certainly did with us.irie Cee Bee wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 2:47 pmDidn't Kevin Davies score every 8 game for Southampton playing almost 90 games before joining us.. and look what he did. It depends on the role he is asked to play doesn't it?
I like Bod. I was a bit unsure when we signed him, but he'd be one of the first names on my teamsheet next year. And I hope he fires us up, and that confidence and fit mean he does better on his next go up there. And he might. Football is funny like that.
I'm just not buying that to date he's proved himself a Champo player.
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Re: The Case For MJ - Why Williams Might Be The Most Important Player At Bolton
I suppose the way talking about Dad Bod ties in with Williams is that they are both players who dropped down a level not because they're bad at football, but because their skill set is a bit niche.
Williams was a centreback, but he wasn't mobile enough. Then he was an orthodox midfielder, but again his mobility hit and he wasn't technical enough in the final third. Evatt saw a lower leagues Campo where other people saw a bad entre half/midfielder.
Scroll to Bodvarsson and you've got a forward who looks like a target man, but wants to drift play in the half spaces. Not quick or skilful enough to play as a winger, not creative or technical enough to be a #10 etc. Evatt looked at his work rate, movement and tactical brain and knew he'd fit in a pressing side as a sort of "transition forward."
Bod will be less effective in the Championship, but I still think he'd be a good player for us at that level. He gets away with stuff in League One he wouldn't up there, but most of his game translates - because he's primarily a system player. KD is a good point of comparison, as was said earlier. A player who has exceptional attributes, but not in a combination that most sides would value.
Another win for Wonky Wanderers.
Williams was a centreback, but he wasn't mobile enough. Then he was an orthodox midfielder, but again his mobility hit and he wasn't technical enough in the final third. Evatt saw a lower leagues Campo where other people saw a bad entre half/midfielder.
Scroll to Bodvarsson and you've got a forward who looks like a target man, but wants to drift play in the half spaces. Not quick or skilful enough to play as a winger, not creative or technical enough to be a #10 etc. Evatt looked at his work rate, movement and tactical brain and knew he'd fit in a pressing side as a sort of "transition forward."
Bod will be less effective in the Championship, but I still think he'd be a good player for us at that level. He gets away with stuff in League One he wouldn't up there, but most of his game translates - because he's primarily a system player. KD is a good point of comparison, as was said earlier. A player who has exceptional attributes, but not in a combination that most sides would value.
Another win for Wonky Wanderers.
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