A switch of the (h) Ips and we're gone..Home V THE Tractor Boys Sat 11th Mar. 3-0'clock

[Bertie Wooster]

That's basically a new team !

I was joking, but yeah we'll need plenty of new players. We have about 13 first team players contracted beyond this season.

Lets hope we bring in 1 or 2 characters, a few hard tackling, ball winning 'leader' types - who can mix it when we are getting bullied (which is almost every week), the successful Bolton teams in the past have always had players who can hold their own when it gets physical - currently our team (and at all times under Evatt) is a bit 'soft' & has no one apart from Dempsey who look like they could mix it. Which is surprising as Evatt was a physical CB who didn't mind the physical stuff.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm not 100% sure that most are suggesting we bin off "plan Evatt" in favour of "plan Ainsworth" (I'm not anyhow). Just that we have a bit more balance in the squad. Maybe in the MF, it feels a little less like a cookie cutter clone factory, full of players, most of whom aren't toe to toe types that we come up against on occasion in other teams. I like the players we have, they all seem to be genuine hard working types, but it feels on too many occasions, that the oppo can find a way that more than neutralises whatever the perceived technical benefit we're getting.

We generally don't perform well when pressed across our defence and they give us little room to breathe in MF, by what you might call big physical teams. It feels to me like we need to be able to counter that style (rather than necessarily re-write our own) and constantly grumble for fouls against the poor luvvies. Because that seems to be our best response, currently.

What many are asking for is that we play this compact, more direct style one game and the possession and press style in another. It's literally impossible to coach both to a proper level at the same time. It can't be done.

You can absolutely tweak things. Play in certain different areas, shift where your runs are made to offer more direct options, etc. The fundamentals have to be the same every game, though - because you coach those for hours every week.

I think most agree that we need a bit more grit, running and physicality in the middle - just in order to make this style of football work better. That's why we signed Dempsey and wanted to sign Butcher. It's why Evatt loves Thomason and has worked on that side of the game with Morley - who now runs his arse off. It's why we lads we sign this summer probably won't look like Sheehan, they'll look more like Butcher who we missed out on, or Camara who we also wanted.

We can't not play these passing patterns, though. They're one of the main reasons we keep clean sheets when we do keep them. We can't sit off and not press, because that's a totally different kind of training ground work and we don't have time to do both.

Ultimately, if people want to play a very different style in certain games they are asking for a change of manager. They might not think they are, but they are.

I don’t agree with your black and white view of one style vs another. Ipswich are a strong pressing side but they are able to play off their front man at times and can mix up a more direct game with possession. Indeed they did yesterday.

Wigan were the same last season.

We spent a lot of yesterday passing it nowhere risking losing it in our own half before lumping it aimlessly at a striker. The reason being we were probably 3 or 4 quality players off being able to play out against them. I would say those 3 or 4 would cost 5M quid or so. Either find that or develop a bit more variety. If we can’t that’s a failure of management since Ipswich have variety, Plymouth have variety. Even Sheffield Weds do.

I don’t see these sides only able to do one thing. They have options to their play. And consequently aren’t as easy to stop. If you are physical and fit you can easily press us and basically stops us in our tracks. You then only need a half decent striker or forwards and you have a good chance. We saw Port Vale for example come here and do exactly that. We were incredibly lucky to win it and had they had any quality up top I suspect it would be close to a hammering for us.

There is a weakness there that has persisted from last season into this. We either find the variety to our game that lets us better cope when this is the challenge OR we improve to such a level that these teams cannot counter our normal game.

I don’t think the latter is realistic unless Sharon comes up good on the euromillions.

[GhostoftheBok]

In terms of evolving the style of play to give us more options, a lot of that will depend on those summer signings - whichever division we're in.

Going more direct wasn't an option with just Doyle up top, but with two strikers up there and signings like Dad Bod it allowed us to do that.

For example, if we want to do things like hit corners to force teams back (which we could really use when pressed) we'll need more pace. If we want to move the ball a lot faster (again, yes please) we need higher technical quality. If we want to be better on the counter we need more players who can run like Bradley. If we want to feed the strikers from wide we need lads who can beat a man and cross.

We were a far more limited side in League Two than we are now, tactically. We can add more strings to our bow, but we need the attributes in the squad to do that. Each time we tweak what we do we do it in light of new signings, who offer new options.

I've been saying for a long time that pace is the big one. That would allow us to get out over a press without consistently having the ball come right back at us. Better technical players would allow us also play through less effective presses rapidly and hurt teams.

We absolutely can get better at what we do and learn to do more things. We just need the players for it. I think Evatt was hoping Williams, Shoretire and Nlundulu would offer us some of those new options. Thus far we've not been able to get them all on a pitch, though.

[GhostoftheBok]

I don’t agree with your black and white view of one style vs another. Ipswich are a strong pressing side but they are able to play off their front man at times and can mix up a more direct game with possession. Indeed they did yesterday.

Wigan were the same last season.

See my last post.

Ipswich have three very technical players in the middle, who also graft, as well as pace in key attacking areas.

We can match them in aspects when we show up, but the big difference for their first goal was pace and quality of delivery.

Wes Burns legged it up field and then played a superb ball, met by a fast player with the technique to hit a crisp volley.

At other times Broadhead was able to chase down poor passes or run through the middle of us purely based on the fact he was so quick.

We're not talking about huge gulfs in the quality of the coaching on display, we're talking about teams with options we don't currently have. Maybe we will have them as players get fit, but I suspect we need another window to get there.

The biggest difference yesterday was mental, but the reason they're so far ahead of us in general is they have more complete squads.

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm less about the style and more about the substance. I really don't care much whether we go 442 direct or carry on heading in the direction we are travelling. But whichever it is, has to be able to adapt to what's in front of it on the pitch. If the argument is it can't, then it's not much use to us and I don't think that's what your saying.

To appease the rank and file (me in this group), we need to be able to show how "our plan" combats "big, physical, more direct" because if it can't, the fans will call "time" and point to the new clothes on Emperor Evatt.

Like I say, I think it's unfair to expect us to compete consistently with much more expensive teams after 18 months in this league. I agree people will get fed up fairly rapidly, but that doesn't change the fact that this is evolution now and not revolution.

We absolutely can improve and I think we will, Evatt can't magically make players faster and stronger, though, and he can't go and spend a million quid per position.

Iniesta had a quote the other day that was something like, "Power wins in slow games and technique wins in fast games."

Evatt wants to go the latter route, but he needs a squad with enough of the other stuff to compete on small, crappy pitches in League One. We're not miles off on that front. The reason the players slow the game down when confidence ebbs is because they stop trusting their technique. Evatt has said previously he's as frustrated as the fans when the game gets too slow, but the answer to that will be better technical players and not big units. Fans should probably be ready for that.

Against the top sides we are short, but we just have to keep adding options every window. The more options we have the more we can do on the pitch.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don’t agree with your black and white view of one style vs another. Ipswich are a strong pressing side but they are able to play off their front man at times and can mix up a more direct game with possession. Indeed they did yesterday.

Wigan were the same last season.

See my last post.

Ipswich have three very technical players in the middle, who also graft, as well as pace in key attacking areas.

We can match them in aspects when we show up, but the big difference for their first goal was pace and quality of delivery.

Wes Burns legged it up field and then played a superb ball, met by a fast player with the technique to hit a crisp volley.

At other times Broadhead was able to chase down poor passes or run through the middle of us purely based on the fact he was so quick.

We're not talking about huge gulfs in the quality of the coaching on display, we're talking about teams with options we don't currently have. Maybe we will have them as players get fit, but I suspect we need another window to get there.

The biggest difference yesterday was mental, but the reason they're so far ahead of us in general is they have more complete squads.

Well yes I don’t disagree we need those options. But one of the reasons we struggle to do differently at times is personnel we do have struggling to actually do something else. Trafford cannot get the game moving. Santos cannot vary distribution patterns. We know right now Toal is struggling on the ball as is Mbete.

When Charles and Ade make the right runs they aren’t found because we are too focussed on trying to do something at the back we are unable to.

[GhostoftheBok]

Well yes I don’t disagree we need those options. But one of the reasons we struggle to do differently at times is personnel we do have struggling to actually do something else. Trafford cannot get the game moving. Santos cannot vary distribution patterns. We know right now Toal is struggling on the ball as is Mbete.

When Charles and Ade make the right runs they aren’t found because we are too focussed on trying to do something at the back we are unable to.

See, I disagree strongly with that last part. The runs Charles and Adeboyejo make are coached. They're not making it up on the fly and not being found by regimented players. The player on the ball is choosing not to hit that run because he lacks the confidence, not because he's trying to force a style of play.

Same with Mbete and Toal. They had options to pass to when they brought the ball out. To Toal's credit he was was more willing to try balls, he's just out of form and messed up. His confidence went later after those errors. Mbete started the game not right.

Traf's kicking is crap. It's his biggest weakness and why we'll probably look at that side of things as a priority when we add a goalie. Vigouroux might be that guy, I don't know. Certainly the type, though.

Santos can do that passing work, which is why Ipswich made damn sure he was the one they denied angles. The other two we pressed to try and encourage them to make longer passes, Santos was pressed to prevent it. That tells you what Ipswich thought of Santos' ability to find those runners.

It's probably worth praising Ipswich. I think their manager is really good. I really hate playing against coaches who understand their jobs.

[BWFC_Insane]

We’ve discussed a lot about the longer term. What do we do in the short term now? We have two more massive games coming up then potentially a ‘must win ‘em all’ run in to come. How does Evatt shake the cob webs out?

For me at Wednesday we need to play Thomason. For two reasons. One because I think we need to shake things up and also because I think he needs some minutes in his legs.

Should MJ or GJ be available be good to get them some minutes off the bench too.

We need to change a few things. Do we start Jerome up top? Get some experience in there. Lee will play for sure. Jones for Mbete one assumes.

We need a bit of a reinvention. I almost wonder if we should try a 343 just to shake things up a bit and give us a different look?

[GhostoftheBok]

We’ve discussed a lot about the longer term. What do we do in the short term now? We have two more massive games coming up then potentially a ‘must win ‘em all’ run in to come. How does Evatt shake the cob webs out?

Honestly, I don't know. Without being in there and knowing why things are happened it's all shrugs from me

I can talk about what team I might out out etc, but none of that will matter if they don't show up mentally ready for the hardest game of the season.

Is Dempsey mentally here, or is he too worried about other stuff to focus? That's a conversation I assume has been had, but it may need revisiting.

They need to have a meeting and hash it out.

[BWFC_Insane]

We’ve discussed a lot about the longer term. What do we do in the short term now? We have two more massive games coming up then potentially a ‘must win ‘em all’ run in to come. How does Evatt shake the cob webs out?

Honestly, I don't know. Without being in there and knowing why things are happened it's all shrugs from me

I can talk about what team I might out out etc, but none of that will matter if they don't show up mentally ready for the hardest game of the season.

Is Dempsey mentally here, or is he too worried about other stuff to focus? That's a conversation I assume has been had, but it may need revisiting.

They need to have a meeting and hash it out.

The performance levels have been awful since the semi final. It might be coincidence. It might be they were dipping anyway and was just a bit of luck with the red card at Accy that carried them through. But Port Vale was utterly dire and then Pompey worse.

It’s hard to know what caused it. Over excitement at the semi? Just natural dips in form? Tired legs? But I think there is a need for reinvention. Just change a few. Have a different look. My big concern really is if we lose the next two like DSB worries the season very likely drifts away. It’s why I think we simply can’t afford that. We need to find a way to get results against these teams. Be it have two playing off Jerome or Thomason in midfield for extra oomph or a combination.

Interestingly without Bradley we average over two points per game. It’s a tiny sample of games of course but I have felt for a while when he plays we are overusing him and it becomes one dimensional. Perhaps something to consider how we can use him less (within games) to create more variety.

[GhostoftheBok]

Over excitement at the semi?

I mean we're nearly 150 years old. At that age you'd probably be very excited over a semi too.

[Bertie Wooster]

Evatt over complicates the game for me, summed up by playing Jones at LWB even though we had John & Randell. He justified it by saying he had to try & nullify Ipswich's Burns.

FFS we are at home, why not give them something to think about and have a left sided player playing LWB going at Burns making him less effective - stop being so fecking negative and thinking about how to stop them, think more about how we can attack them & hurt them - a major flaw for me in Evatt is him overthinking things, as he's not very good tactically.

[BWFC_Insane]

Evatt over complicates the game for me, summed up by playing Jones at LWB even though we had John & Randell. He justified it by saying he had to try & nullify Ipswich's Burns.

FFS we are at home, why not give them something to think about and have a left sided player playing LWB going at Burns making him less effective - stop being so fecking negative and thinking about how to stop them, think more about how we can attack them & hurt them - a major flaw for me in Evatt is him overthinking things, as he's not very good tactically.

I guess he doesn’t trust John and Williams hasn’t been great and isn’t really a natural left sided option. He plays there but I’d not say he has a great left foot.

But he will need to go back to this as Jones needs to play instead of Mbete in the back three.

[GhostoftheBok]

a major flaw for me in Evatt is him overthinking things, as he's not very good tactically.

See, this sort of thing confuses me. Evatt has the highest win rate of any manager of the modern era. As you say, he makes changes to adapt to opponents and his win percentage shows he usually gets it right.

How can we justify saying, essentially, that Evatt doesn't know what he's doing when he has a record number of wins?

If Evatt is no good tactically then someone on his staff is. There's no way you win half your games whilst being tactically naïve.

[Bertie Wooster]

See, this sort of thing confuses me. Evatt has the highest win rate of any manager of the modern era. As you say, he makes changes to adapt to opponents and his win percentage shows he usually gets it right.

How can we justify saying, essentially, that Evatt doesn't know what he's doing when he has a record number of wins?

If Evatt is no good tactically then someone on his staff is. There's no way you win half your games whilst being tactically naïve.

In regards to win rate & wins it's not really reflective is it as with Evatt its all in Leagues 1 & 2 which distort this stat for me. I never said that he doesn't know what he's going, I said that I think he over thinks & over complicates things and should concentrate on how we can hurt the opposition as opposed to putting a team out to nulify the opposition.

[Bertie Wooster]

Did Bruce Rioch have a budget better than the teams he competed against yes or no, the point being was Bruce a great manager as we / I think he was, or did he just have better players than the other top 6 teams because we had better financial backing ?

This is relevant to the current discussion.

[truewhite15]

See, this sort of thing confuses me. Evatt has the highest win rate of any manager of the modern era. As you say, he makes changes to adapt to opponents and his win percentage shows he usually gets it right.

How can we justify saying, essentially, that Evatt doesn't know what he's doing when he has a record number of wins?

If Evatt is no good tactically then someone on his staff is. There's no way you win half your games whilst being tactically naïve.

In regards to win rate & wins it's not really reflective is it as with Evatt its all in Leagues 1 & 2 which distort this stat for me. I never said that he doesn't know what he's going, I said that I think he over thinks & over complicates things and should concentrate on how we can hurt the opposition as opposed to putting a team out to nulify the opposition.

So because the wins are in leagues 1 and 2, which Evatt has coached in exclusively for us, they don't count as wins and signs of tactical ability. Got it.

[Bertie Wooster]

See, this sort of thing confuses me. Evatt has the highest win rate of any manager of the modern era. As you say, he makes changes to adapt to opponents and his win percentage shows he usually gets it right.

How can we justify saying, essentially, that Evatt doesn't know what he's doing when he has a record number of wins?

If Evatt is no good tactically then someone on his staff is. There's no way you win half your games whilst being tactically naïve.

In regards to win rate & wins it's not really reflective is it as with Evatt its all in Leagues 1 & 2 which distort this stat for me. I never said that he doesn't know what he's going, I said that I think he over thinks & over complicates things and should concentrate on how we can hurt the opposition as opposed to putting a team out to nulify the opposition.

So because the wins are in leagues 1 and 2, which Evatt has coached in exclusively for us, they don't count as wins and signs of tactical ability. Got it.

No need for the sarcasm, but surely in regards to win ratios you can't compare wins in the championship or premier league to wins in League 1 or 2 ?

[GhostoftheBok]

Bruce is an interesting one, because he has a similar record to Ian.

Promoted in his first season. Then finished midtable (Ian managed 9th vs 14th?). Then play-offs and a cup final.

Hard to compare directly as Bruce came in to some kind of structure whereas Ian had to totally rebuild a football club, but has operated a division lower.

Both should be celebrated as doing incredible jobs here.

In terms of finances, in Bruce's third season we weren't destitute. When he first arrived there had to be a lot of wheeler dealing, from his telling of it, to get the players he needed; but in his third season he and the chairman had sorted things out enough for him to think he could do something. Probably fairly similar in terms of financial standing. Nowhere near the top sides, but with enough to get a team together that could get into the play-offs.

I was a kid during that period though, so I'm going off having spoken to Bruce and people later. For me the actual footy is pure nostalgia. Hard to get past the fact that Bruce made me proud to be a Wanderers fan, having been laughed at for it previously.

[BWFC_Insane]

Bruce is an interesting one, because he has a similar record to Ian.

Promoted in his first season. Then finished midtable (Ian managed 9th vs 14th?). Then play-offs and a cup final.

Hard to compare directly as Bruce came in to some kind of structure whereas Ian had to totally rebuild a football club, but has operated a division lower.

Both should be celebrated as doing incredible jobs here.

In terms of finances, in Bruce's third season we weren't destitute. When he first arrived there had to be a lot of wheeler dealing, from his telling of it, to get the players he needed; but in his third season he and the chairman had sorted things out enough for him to think he could do something. Probably fairly similar in terms of financial standing. Nowhere near the top sides, but with enough to get a team together that could get into the play-offs.

I was a kid during that period though, so I'm going off having spoken to Bruce and people later. For me the actual footy is pure nostalgia. Hard to get past the fact that Bruce made me proud to be a Wanderers fan, having been laughed at for it previously.

Yeah I don’t think it’s comparable. For many reasons. A different era. A completely different club.

There is no way on gods Green earth that Evatt is going to come close to the impact Bruce Rioch had on Bolton wanderers. I mean Bruce was the man who laid the foundation or kickstarted Boltons transformation into a modern and competitive football club.

I think Evatt has done a really good job. However, the end to this season is a big test. And he needs to pass the test.

I often think Evatt has a touch of Rioch about him but then sometimes you wonder if he’s more Phil Neal…it’s sometimes hard to say. Rioch had that perfect balance of discipline, man management and genuine motivation. Evatt is much younger though and still learning.