North by North West..Bolton v Fleetwood Tues 15th Aug 7-45.

[BWFC_Insane]

So now it transpires the referee who is perfectly normal and not at all desperate to send off bolton players came to speak to Evatt at half time to tell him Thomason ‘had to be careful’.

Dear me.

This seems... odd. I don't deny it happened. Like I don't deny the ref's a twunt. Still don't think you should grab a keeper round the neck when you know FROM PERSONAL HUMILIATING EXPERIENCE that the ref's a twunt.

Yeah but he didn’t grab a keeper round the neck. There was the briefest of contacts as the keeper was wanting to run through his path and that’s it. Wasn’t a foul. Game could and would have continued. Till the keeper tripped Charles over. At which point the referee stopped it. And sent Charles off.

There will be more than two dozen incidents with more contact than that on Saturday alone and none of them will result in yellow cards. If Charles had kicked out, or gone in late, or obstructed the keeper or any of those things you can say it was stupid. But there is absolutely nothing there at all. If that’s a yellow card then whichever of their lumps put his arms across Baxter to block him off for their third is also a clear yellow card and no goal.

There are hundreds of scenarios like that every week. It’s not a yellow. Never in a million years. Charles was simply doing what he’d always do.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The ref was wrong but it wasn’t the brightest approach by Charles to try to wind the keeper up when he was on a yellow. And more so Evatt should have realised this at halftime - he withdrew Thomason to stop him being carded again…Charles was obviously in the refs sights last night and should have been subbed as well.

Perhaps with hindsight, I suspect it was slightly weak management to let Charles stay on to try to score. Might have been better to sub him for protection – which Evatt has done with players before, like with Dapo at Morecambe at the end of the Div 4 season - and get him focused on Wigan. Now he'll be watching Wigan from the posh seats, with his gaffer.

Also a point of failure for Evatt to not know he could be sent off for technology misuse. I didn't know it either, but it's not my job to. Officials probably a bit (Neil) hair-trigger there too, and yes emotions run high, but again - if you know the ref's a twunt, as Worthy says "never give a mug a chance".

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

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If you're telling me you wouldn't cry foul if someone did this to Baxter, then fair enough, we're done here.

One more time: the ref's wrong. But IMO Dion was also foolish. And I repeat that he'd been throwing himself down all night with the proper "archer's bow" fall that refs just know is at least hyping contact, at most inventing it. I love Dion's style but sometimes he needs to be savvier. And I repeat, he knows this ref's a knob.

EDIT: Pics were in wrong order

[BWFC_Insane]

You can’t take players off just because they have a yellow card. I mean what if santos is booked in first ten minutes Saturday are we taking him off?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

You can’t take players off just because they have a yellow card. I mean what if santos is booked in first ten minutes Saturday are we taking him off?

No, you expect them to know they have to be careful. They might get a second yellow for scything down a takeaway at 1-0 up in the 95th minute (the Soljskjaer!). Manhandling a goalkeeper at 3-0 up, maybe less vital.

Also: if you don't take players off for being on a yellow, Thomason certainly didn't give a £1m performance after the break. I can't remember him doing a single thing.

[BWFC_Insane]

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If you're telling me you wouldn't cry foul if someone did this to Baxter, then fair enough, we're done here.

One more time: the ref's wrong. But IMO Dion was also foolish. And I repeat that he'd been throwing himself down all night with the proper "archer's bow" fall that refs just know is at least hyping contact, at most inventing it. I love Dion's style but sometimes he needs to be savvier. And I repeat, he knows this ref's a knob.

It was absolutely nothing - the briefest of contacts the keeper shrugged it off then tripped Charles.

And as I’ve said no throat grab.

Happens hundreds of times a season and is absolutely nowhere near a yellow card.

Like I say if you think that’s a yellow then it’s a clear yellow for the lad putting arms across Baxter. Without question or argument.

[Prufrock]

Having watched it again, I'd upgrade how much I think it's Dion's fault from 0 to about 10%. It's less of a natural jostle than I thought it was, he's deliberately gently placed his hand on the keepers shoulder. He hasn't in any way slowed him down and it's a ridiculous decision, but there's at least something in the "given him a chance to send you off argument".

But it's still ridiculous. Especially when you've sent him off pathetically before. And it's because they're fundamentally bad people. The kind of look at me arseholes who want to be contrarian and show off how they know X technicality.

It happens every season, they bring in some new approach, and refs over zealously implement it so they can write in their sad little reports how they have done what the big bosses asked, and then Howard Webb has to go on football focus and try to back track without admitting they have fecked it (because no ref if capable of ever admitting they might have made a mistake).

There was a game at the weekend where a player was shepherding it slowly out for a throw in, and the second it crossed the line went to pick it up. An opponent was trying to tackle him as it crossed the line and made contact with the ball as the first one went to pick it up. Booked under this new "stop time wasting" thing. He was trying to tackle him!

Send them all to Guantanamo and start again.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Like I say if you think that’s a yellow then it’s a clear yellow for the lad putting arms across Baxter. Without question or argument.

That's whataboutery, even though you're right. I say again the ref got loads wrong last night - INCLUDING THAT YELLOW. What I'm saying is that Dion should have known better than to give this particular mug a chance. Maybe he'll think on it while sat on his arse all Saturday.

[BWFC_Insane]

Like I say if you think that’s a yellow then it’s a clear yellow for the lad putting arms across Baxter. Without question or argument.

That's whataboutery, even though you're right. I say again the ref got loads wrong last night - INCLUDING THAT YELLOW. What I'm saying is that Dion should have known better than to give this particular mug a chance. Maybe he'll think on it while sat on his arse all Saturday.

Pru pretty much sums up my view though I wouldn’t even go as high as 10%.

But I can’t subscribe to the ‘don’t give a mass murderer a chance’ argument in this case. Because I think Dion will do the same thing thousands of times and nothing will happen. Indeed the referee didn’t stop the game until the keeper tripped Charles up. If that hadn’t happened Charles would not have been sent off.

I’m fully on board with not doing anything stupid. The problem is that their merest and slightest touch on the shoulder is not something that Dion is likely to ever consider ‘well I might get a yellow for this’.

But we will have to agree to disagree.

[The_Gun]

I'm fairly certain, given the sequence of events, that Dion got a yellow for something he said to the ref after their keeper tripped him. In which case, I don't think we should be excusing him.

[Worthy4England]

But I can’t subscribe to the ‘don’t give a mass murderer a chance’ argument in this case.

I think mug was the word used... You can "unsubscribe" all you like to the notion, but factually, Dion contributed to giving said mug a chance, and it was evidentially taken up. So. Never give a mug a chance.

[BWFC_Insane]

Back to the game - I’d be interested in a view from those watching online as to why we looked quite so vulnerable at times. Fleetwood certainly gave it more of a go but my instinct was something wasn’t quite right in midfield off the ball. Maghoma certainly was a bit unsure when defending. But I see no long term issue there he will learn that side as he’s quick and physical. It was noticeable how we looked more vulnerable when Thomason went off but second half we barely bothered to turn up.

At times I felt we left the flanks a bit wide open as the midfield players struggled to cover and the wing backs were very advanced. On the plus side of course that is why we looked like we would score on every attack for the first half at least.

But we know Wigan will defend better than Fleetwood but also carry a threat on the transition. So interested to see what tweaks people think we need for that game?

Having slept on it I suspect Nlundulu will have to start as I’m not really seeing other options. It does change the dynamic up front as Charles has been dropping deeper and linking play up but that’s not Big Dan’s game.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm fairly certain, given the sequence of events, that Dion got a yellow for something he said to the ref after their keeper tripped him. In which case, I don't think we should be excusing him.

The referee pointed back to the box suggesting it was for the incident in there.

[Worthy4England]

I'm fairly certain, given the sequence of events, that Dion got a yellow for something he said to the ref after their keeper tripped him. In which case, I don't think we should be excusing him.

When I look at the replay, Dion is appealing for something prior to dying at the brief contact with Lynch's leg - I could only assume he felt it was a backpass in the original move (I mean that's never going to be given)....But I guess we'll have to see what the "report" says as to why he was given the second yellow - it did feel as though he'd said something, rather than it being for the original infringement, but as Insano says. the ref pointed back at the original infringement (but that might have been just to indicate where the FK was to be taken from - which would have been the point of the initial infringement, I guess?)...

[Prufrock]

I'm pretty sure it was for the "foul". Ref pointed back there. Dion usually pretty obvious when he's gobbing off (hands going) and they've got this "anything remotely timewasting/slowing a keeper down" is a booking new directive.

Someone (Vic?) got booked at the weekend for nudging a throw in a yard or two further off the pitch.

[boltonboris]

You can’t take players off just because they have a yellow card. I mean what if santos is booked in first ten minutes Saturday are we taking him off?

Come on mate. You don't have to die on your hill. 3-0 up and game over against Fleetwood, with our current biggest rivals Wigan a few days later. Of course you should take him off! The game was won!

Your example above is nowhere near the same as the scenario from last night!

[officer_dibble]

Re Maghoma. - he was knackered second half I think. Needs some more time to get up to pace. Fleetwood played well particularly at the start of the second half though so got to give them some credit.

[BWFC_Insane]

You can’t take players off just because they have a yellow card. I mean what if santos is booked in first ten minutes Saturday are we taking him off?

Come on mate. You don't have to die on your hill. 3-0 up and game over against Fleetwood, with our current biggest rivals Wigan a few days later. Of course you should take him off! The game was won!

Your example above is nowhere near the same as the scenario from last night!

One assumes we were going to take him off though at some point. We also needed to rest a number of players. I mean no doubt had Evatt taken him off at half time and Fleetwood got back into it - which given their second half performance wasn’t impossible people would have criticised that.

There are times when a player on a yellow in a game looks dangerous and you have to react. Charles yesterday wasn’t in that category.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Back to the game - I’d be interested in a view from those watching online as to why we looked quite so vulnerable at times. Fleetwood certainly gave it more of a go but my instinct was something wasn’t quite right in midfield off the ball. Maghoma certainly was a bit unsure when defending. But I see no long term issue there he will learn that side as he’s quick and physical. It was noticeable how we looked more vulnerable when Thomason went off but second half we barely bothered to turn up.

At times I felt we left the flanks a bit wide open as the midfield players struggled to cover and the wing backs were very advanced. On the plus side of course that is why we looked like we would score on every attack for the first half at least.

But we know Wigan will defend better than Fleetwood but also carry a threat on the transition. So interested to see what tweaks people think we need for that game?

Having slept on it I suspect Nlundulu will have to start as I’m not really seeing other options. It does change the dynamic up front as Charles has been dropping deeper and linking play up but that’s not Big Dan’s game.

It's an interesting one. Personally, I don't think any of Maghoma/Thomason/CMG pushed past the other three last night as a must-start. Usual tactical caveat, horses for courses etc.

It felt like Fleetwood exposed us in a couple of areas - high width (like us, they put in a few dangerous crosses, it's just that we were more ruthless than them) and on occasion straight through the middle on turnover. That's where Thomason got his yellow for lunging in – not a brilliant tackle and not a brilliant choice to go to ground either – and where Vela probably should have scored, although credit to Baxter.

I don't have any incisive tactical insights, it just felt like Maghoma wasn't quite used to our somewhat high-risk system, and Thomason - while very comfortable on the ball (lovely if risky turn at one point) - also didn't always inspire me that he was covering off the channels. Just felt sometimes like that first League One half-season where MJ was often left behind two high 8s (albeit we have an extra centre-back now). Maybe Morley is better at digging back into position than Maghoma - for now - I'm sure Paris will learn his role.

Course, there's always two teams playing and it's entirely possible that Fleetwood were just better at exposing our frailties than the previous three opponents. Perhaps that's a good lesson for Saturday.

[Prufrock]

Yeah I can see that both ways. Wouldn't have been surprised if he'd been taken off, but I wasn't thinking oh god get him off until it happened.