Murder on the Orient Express. Home to Leyton O, Sat 23rd Dec, 15:00

[GhostoftheBok]

All that being said it should have been 5-0 at half time.

[BWFC_Insane]

Dead simple game.

Sheehan and Dempsey have plenty of "desire" and "heart", but they physically can't cover the ground - so when both are in the same midfield we lose too many 2nd balls.

At the back only Forrester would put his foot on the ball and play and neither striker could hold it up, so it kept coming right back at us.

They pressed, we hoofed, they won the ball (either their defender or the second in midfield) and they came back at us.

First half an hour or so we played football and it looked very easy. When we stopped playing football it was exactly the game they wanted.

You don't need to ignore the problems, but in order to fix them you need to identify the right problems.

Wellens did. Fair play to him. He saw the issues in midfield and at the back and in the second half he pressed the right buttons.

Oh, also they ran in down our left until Forrester got to grips with things. He's 22 and was the only player at the back taking responsibility. Toal is absolutely not ready to be at the centre of our defence. Was once again terrified of the ball whenever anything went wrong - to the point even Evatt waved them off from playing out through Toal eventually.

Love Eoin, but he has got to get more comfortable on the ball under pressure or he won't make it here in the long term.

If it’s that simple to stop us and a lower mid table Leyton orient at 3-0 down can do it why aren’t we near the bottom?

The conclusion has to be that it’s not physical but mental - coasting and then implosion. That’s not physical that’s between the ears.

Also Evatt spent most of the second half screaming at them to ‘go long’ and waving his arms around when they didn’t. I didn’t see much of an ‘well we need to play out better’ there seemed to be acceptance that we couldn’t play through them anymore so instructions to just lump it came. Not that it was the wrong thing but it rather suggests that Evatt doesn’t believe we just needed to ‘play’ OR he felt we weren’t capable of doing so. Either way that’s a bit more than just ‘we stopped’.

[GhostoftheBok]

If it’s that simple to stop us and a lower mid table Leyton orient at 3-0 down can do it why aren’t we near the bottom?

The conclusion has to be that it’s not physical but mental - coasting and then implosion. That’s not physical that’s between the ears.

Also Evatt spent most of the second half screaming at them to ‘go long’ and waving his arms around when they didn’t. I didn’t see much of an ‘well we need to play out better’ there seemed to be acceptance that we couldn’t play through them anymore so instructions to just lump it came. Not that it was the wrong thing but it rather suggests that Evatt doesn’t believe we just needed to ‘play’ OR he felt we weren’t capable of doing so. Either way that’s a bit more than just ‘we stopped’.

Evatt didn't just scream "go long" though, did he. What he was trying to get them to do was compact the midfield, so that we could compete for second balls better. That's what we did so well last season. When we went more direct we held almost to the half way line and our midfield's lack of pace didn't matter as much, because the ball always landed within 5 yards of a white shirt and we battled. Hence the amazing defensive record.

It shouldn't have take Evatt getting involved, to be honest. Where we did let ourselves down was the experienced lads not sorting that out way before that second goal went in.

The reason we're not bottom is because we usually hold a higher line when we need to and have Rico bossing things at the back. If they go long he sweeps up and if it drops on his head he smashed strikers out of the way and wins it.

Some of it is mental, because the defence (and especially Toal, once again) lost their heads on the ball. Once that happened and it was obvious the press was getting to us we had to go to that compact, competitive midfield and we left it too late. At which stage it was a nervy game.

[Mar]

Dead simple game.

Sheehan and Dempsey have plenty of "desire" and "heart", but they physically can't cover the ground - so when both are in the same midfield we lose too many 2nd balls.

At the back only Forrester would put his foot on the ball and play and neither striker could hold it up, so it kept coming right back at us.

I think this is probably a fair representation of the game. That being said the number of hoofed balls in the 2nd half probably contributed towards us not controlling the game in midfield. Far easier for our players to get a grip on the game when they're not being bypassed.

The first half was far easier as Leyton Orient were rattled. They had their equivalent in the second half where we were rattled.

They pressed, we hoofed, they won the ball (either their defender or the second in midfield) and they came back at us.

First half an hour or so we played football and it looked very easy. When we stopped playing football it was exactly the game they wanted.

You don't need to ignore the problems, but in order to fix them you need to identify the right problems.

I am wondering if going five in the midfield would suit us a little better when we're struggling with the midfield domination. The hoof can still happen, but its far easier to break up the opposition play when we're outnumbering them when its gone wrong.

Wellens did. Fair play to him. He saw the issues in midfield and at the back and in the second half he pressed the right buttons.

Oh, also they ran in down our left until Forrester got to grips with things. He's 22 and was the only player at the back taking responsibility. Toal is absolutely not ready to be at the centre of our defence. Was once again terrified of the ball whenever anything went wrong - to the point even Evatt waved them off from playing out through Toal eventually.

Love Eoin, but he has got to get more comfortable on the ball under pressure or he won't make it here in the long term.

Toal's still got plenty of learning to do. I think part of it is a mentality thing that we saw with Rico in his first season. He's got all the attributes and looks like he'll come good like Santos did. Not keen on being too critical of Toaly, but if we're actively looking at areas he could improve then I think he'd be able to acknowledge that is an area for improvement.

Forrester looks a good shout, but I think fans of his previous clubs were saying he's got a mistake in him. I suspect those are the mistakes that Santos made playing the same way. It'll happen, but long term the player will be all the better for it.

[GhostoftheBok]

Toal's still got plenty of learning to do.

Loads to like about him. Running back towards his own goal he can be a monster. He isn't the strongest, but will still battle. When there's open grass in front of him he will carry well.

He's very new to a proper level of football and he's learning. I've zero issues with him as a player, but if we're analysing weaknesses his play under pressure is a massive one.

Wellens today was shouting at his players to funnel the ball to Toal and then he was screaming at them to press him. Every manager in the league sees the issue and Toal just has to improve. It's the game. You deal with your weaknesses or you fall away.

As you say, Rico had massive issues when he came here and he still can't mark a player in the box. I'm all for sticking with Eoin and giving him the time he needs. Johnston improved, Rico improved, Geth improved and I have to believe Toal will too.

[BWFC_Insane]

If it’s that simple to stop us and a lower mid table Leyton orient at 3-0 down can do it why aren’t we near the bottom?

The conclusion has to be that it’s not physical but mental - coasting and then implosion. That’s not physical that’s between the ears.

Also Evatt spent most of the second half screaming at them to ‘go long’ and waving his arms around when they didn’t. I didn’t see much of an ‘well we need to play out better’ there seemed to be acceptance that we couldn’t play through them anymore so instructions to just lump it came. Not that it was the wrong thing but it rather suggests that Evatt doesn’t believe we just needed to ‘play’ OR he felt we weren’t capable of doing so. Either way that’s a bit more than just ‘we stopped’.

Evatt didn't just scream "go long" though, did he. What he was trying to get them to do was compact the midfield, so that we could compete for second balls better. That's what we did so well last season. When we went more direct we held almost to the half way line and our midfield's lack of pace didn't matter as much, because the ball always landed within 5 yards of a white shirt and we battled. Hence the amazing defensive record.

It shouldn't have take Evatt getting involved, to be honest. Where we did let ourselves down was the experienced lads not sorting that out way before that second goal went in.

The reason we're not bottom is because we usually hold a higher line when we need to and have Rico bossing things at the back. If they go long he sweeps up and if it drops on his head he smashed strikers out of the way and wins it.

Some of it is mental, because the defence (and especially Toal, once again) lost their heads on the ball. Once that happened and it was obvious the press was getting to us we had to go to that compact, competitive midfield and we left it too late. At which stage it was a nervy game.

We slacked off and stopped playing. Yes we struggled when they went physical but mentally there are two issues. 1) we dropped way before half time. 2) when they came and stepped onto us in midfield we wilted. It was going to be more difficult but we were 3-0 up and the mental fragility was apparent in spades.

[GhostoftheBok]

We slacked off and stopped playing. Yes we struggled when they went physical but mentally there are two issues. 1) we dropped way before half time. 2) when they came and stepped onto us in midfield we wilted. It was going to be more difficult but we were 3-0 up and the mental fragility was apparent in spades.

Depends what you're saying, though.

We didn't react to them getting back into the game. It was obvious in the first half that we'd started losing out in midfield and we know we can fix that by pushing up. We didn't, because the defence didn't want to get run - specifically Toal in the middle and Iredale on the left. So we got stuck, we were getting killed on transition, but we wouldn't step up for fear of getting done in behind.

That's not simply wilting under physicality, it's an acknowledgement of a weakness and the player's fear of it being exploited. So they bottled that if you like, but it's a coachable issue that's causing that. It's not some unknowable "his head's gone" issue, it's an identifiable, fixable problem. You can deal with that on a training pitch and in individual sessions. It just needs time.

By the time we sorted out the spacing it was 3-2 and at that point I'm not sure you'd question the mentality. The lads were getting stuck in, fighting, throwing their bodies into harms way, etc. They looked like they believed they could get the three points, because the switch allowed them to feel more comfortable. By then the momentum was with Orient and they threw everything at our weaknesses, but we held out.

Mentality isn't some magic spell. It's related to how much the players trust what is happening around them. Evatt has to figure out why the team he put out felt unable to play in the way they did last season when things started to get transitional. Was it just Santos' absence? If Santos plays do we just calmly step up and win 3-0? I honestly don't know (we can't from the outside), but that's where Evatt and his staff earn their corn.

Why is something we had sorted last season now broken? Especially when Evatt was able to fix it himself when he got hold of them during a stoppage. My suspicion is that it's because Johnston and Santos weren't in the 11 and Iredale is still struggling one-on-one after doing his knee. Can't prove it, but that's my view. I think the fix had to be forced on them and once it was we got better. It should have been automatic.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Lucky lads. Good HT from them, bringing on a walking yellow card. Unlucky not to get a point.

But what do points make? We'll have 'em thanks.

Five-goal ding-dong-do!!!

[DJBlu]

Evatts 100th win and he says that's all that mattered.

Can't say it isn't. Here's to the next 100. Over the next 2.2 seasons please Ian.

[officer_dibble]

I think you’re right on Iredale v Johnston in particular. I suspect the goals against column would be in better nick with him in the side.

Another shocker by Charles - 4-0 and it’s a more comfortable second half. Is he going to be attracting championship bids?

[BWFC_Insane]

We slacked off and stopped playing. Yes we struggled when they went physical but mentally there are two issues. 1) we dropped way before half time. 2) when they came and stepped onto us in midfield we wilted. It was going to be more difficult but we were 3-0 up and the mental fragility was apparent in spades.

Depends what you're saying, though.

We didn't react to them getting back into the game. It was obvious in the first half that we'd started losing out in midfield and we know we can fix that by pushing up. We didn't, because the defence didn't want to get run - specifically Toal in the middle and Iredale on the left. So we got stuck, we were getting killed on transition, but we wouldn't step up for fear of getting done in behind.

That's not simply wilting under physicality, it's an acknowledgement of a weakness and the player's fear of it being exploited. So they bottled that if you like, but it's a coachable issue that's causing that. It's not some unknowable "his head's gone" issue, it's an identifiable, fixable problem. You can deal with that on a training pitch and in individual sessions. It just needs time.

By the time we sorted out the spacing it was 3-2 and at that point I'm not sure you'd question the mentality. The lads were getting stuck in, fighting, throwing their bodies into harms way, etc. They looked like they believed they could get the three points, because the switch allowed them to feel more comfortable. By then the momentum was with Orient and they threw everything at our weaknesses, but we held out.

Mentality isn't some magic spell. It's related to how much the players trust what is happening around them. Evatt has to figure out why the team he put out felt unable to play in the way they did last season when things started to get transitional. Was it just Santos' absence? If Santos plays do we just calmly step up and win 3-0? I honestly don't know (we can't from the outside), but that's where Evatt and his staff earn their corn.

Why is something we had sorted last season now broken? Especially when Evatt was able to fix it himself when he got hold of them during a stoppage. My suspicion is that it's because Johnston and Santos weren't in the 11 and Iredale is still struggling one-on-one after doing his knee. Can't prove it, but that's my view. I think the fix had to be forced on them and once it was we got better. It should have been automatic.

The problem is that it’s not a one off. We have the same issues when teams play like that.

We lack leaders. Fighters. As noted by a lot of our fans when Pratley came on they were a different side with an experienced leader in midfield barking out orders. And what did Pratley do? He needled and fouled and did the job that we don’t have anyone in midfield to do.

Experience. Street smarts and mental strength.

If we had the ability to match that up then yesterday would have been no issue. Instead we naively played through them got turned over and left ourselves really lucky to hang on. In the end it was just luck. Not some massively determined effort the dividing line on the day was just a bit of luck.

But we could rewind to last week or the week before or countless other times where the same sort of team who are clearly inferior to us technically cause us big problems.

And it happens with Santos in the team too. It’s a problem because as everyone was noting post game we have no real street wise players in the side especially now Lee has gone and we lack the ability to fight fire with fire against a Pratley type and thus if our game plan is slightly off we collapse in these scenarios.

And Evatt was screaming for the ball to go long most of the second half. So he knew we weren’t capable of playing.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think you’re right on Iredale v Johnston in particular. I suspect the goals against column would be in better nick with him in the side.

Another shocker by Charles - 4-0 and it’s a more comfortable second half. Is he going to be attracting championship bids?

I mean Johnston would improve us for sure as he’s a good player but we’ve not had him all season so feels like a moot point and a bit of an excuse. 3-0 against lower mid table fodder and suddenly ‘oh we can’t possibly compete because Johnston isn’t fit’ is excuse central.

Evatt says Dion’s miss ‘disrupted them’ again….its mental weakness that if you are 3-0 up you can’t be that thrown.

Iredale is playing wing back not centre back and it’s a position he’s clearly not comfortable in. So why is he playing? If Williams isn’t deemed a starter then we need a LWB. Urgently.

[DJBlu]

Gonna add its another start for JDB and no goals for him and we've conceded another 2.

Got an assist though.

[BWFC_Insane]

Gonna add its another start for JDB and no goals for him and we've conceded another 2.

Got an assist though.

He was outstanding first half along with Charles. Easily our best strike partnership and it’s not close. The quality he has on the ball embarrasses Adeboyejo. How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

A mystery that fans are actively questioning now. At last.

[dave the minion]

How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

How much of a mystery is it actually though? He was banging goals in for fun for Burton, we saw him, liked what we saw, and signed him.
No mystery there....

I ike Bod - a lot - but I also like Vic. Interesting how Vic had a decent 1 v 1 with the keeper when he came on (which he missed), which was probably more of a direct attempt at goal than Bod managed all game. Equally, Bod missed a good chance when the ball bounced into him in the box (I think?) - no mention of you criticising him for that, and yet if it was Vic or Dan you would have definitely used it as an example of why they are not fit to wear the shirt!!!

I guess now Santos is suspended and Dan is sadly injured, Vic must be your new target......

[BWFC_Insane]

How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

How much of a mystery is it actually though? He was banging goals in for fun for Burton, we saw him, liked what we saw, and signed him.
No mystery there....

I ike Bod - a lot - but I also like Vic. Interesting how Vic had a decent 1 v 1 with the keeper when he came on (which he missed), which was probably more of a direct attempt at goal than Bod managed all game. Equally, Bod missed a good chance when the ball bounced into him in the box (I think?) - no mention of you criticising him for that, and yet if it was Vic or Dan you would have definitely used it as an example of why they are not fit to wear the shirt!!!

I guess now Santos is suspended and Dan is sadly injured, Vic must be your new target......

The perils of signing a striker who has done nowt in their career bar half a season at a direct struggling side?

Forget goals or not. If Vic could trap a ball that would be a start. He can’t. It bounces off him at all angles. Takes about 4 days to pass it following 4 days trying to get it under control.


He’s bobbins. I mean he’s handy if you just lump balls at him because he can fight a defender. I think that’s his game. And if we played like that he’d be first choice. But asking him to play in a side that is playing football? He just isn’t very good.

[Worthy4England]

Lucky lads. Good HT from them, bringing on a walking yellow card. Unlucky not to get a point.

But what do points make? We'll have 'em thanks.

Five-goal ding-dong-do!!!

What I thought I saw was a game of two (uneven) halves, Jeff.

There was no ding dong. We were two leagues in front for 12 minutes. They hardly put a glove on us for 45. Neither ding nor dong.

Then we watched them do similar to us (in a different lower intensity sorta way) for 35 minutes, before clinging on.

Two sides not managing to tackle each other for 45 minutes each is not a ding-dong.

[Worthy4England]

How we paid money for him is really a mystery.

How much of a mystery is it actually though? He was banging goals in for fun for Burton, we saw him, liked what we saw, and signed him.
No mystery there....

I ike Bod - a lot - but I also like Vic. Interesting how Vic had a decent 1 v 1 with the keeper when he came on (which he missed), which was probably more of a direct attempt at goal than Bod managed all game. Equally, Bod missed a good chance when the ball bounced into him in the box (I think?) - no mention of you criticising him for that, and yet if it was Vic or Dan you would have definitely used it as an example of why they are not fit to wear the shirt!!!

I guess now Santos is suspended and Dan is sadly injured, Vic must be your new target......

2023 and some people still don't understand the Internet. You can't like both. You have to pick one, be unstinting in your adulation and point to the other being complete shit.

[GhostoftheBok]

In the end it was just luck. Not some massively determined effort the dividing line on the day was just a bit of luck.

This is where this line of bollocks gets frustrating, Insane.

You so often demanded we see lads throwing their bodies on the line and putting in tackles, as a sign of their character and determination. Other teams come to the Bok and do that and you point them out as having qualities we lack. We get that yesterday and because it doesn't fit the narrative it's "just luck."

We showed precisely the characteristics at the end of that game that you so often claim we lack, but because we've just shown it the goal post has to move.

At this stage it's just comical. It's like some footballing "god of the gaps" argument. As soon as we show what you demand, it's no longer what we need to show.

[TANGODANCER]

End of every day, We are as we are; we'll do as we do. That's a fact nothing will change. Our mission in life (as supporters) is to support, so let's just do that. The team's mission is to do their best and whatever they are, they're our team. Perfection, even in football is short lived and unpredictable so let's just roll with the dice and enjoy it. COME ON YOU WHITES.. ..