Pied and Prejudice, Wigan (A) 27/02/04.

[BWFC_Insane]

A couple of things, BWFCi, me dear old mate. First off is the apparent glee with which you greet defeat. That's led some forum members to dislike you and call you a non-fan; I'm not among their number as I know you deeply care about the club, but I've also known you long enough to confirm that you're far far busier on here when we lose than when we win. It comes from a good place but it's not a great look.

Secondly, you go about it with a mix of claim, supposition, hyperfocus and goalpost-shifting that perfectly mirrors our age of misinformation.

The way I see it though - Wigan are rubbish but any of the play off contenders bar maybe Posh who would take us on are capable of playing how Wigan did yesterday and causing us issues. Or indeed playing how Wigan did back in early season and pressuring us into a collapse.

Supposition; unprovable and undisprovable.

The pattern of not performing very well when the big games come round, especially when those big games present an opportunity is repeating from last season.

Selective memory. Last season we won 3-0 at Barnsley, 5-0 at Peterborough and 4-0 at Wembley in front of 70,000.

What’s our record against the top 8? I doubt it’s top two…I haven’t checked and have no idea.

Check then. Do the homework to back your claims.

But our form in the last two months hasn’t been very good. We were poor but just about clinging on. Now we are poor and losing. It’s become beyond urgent to stop being poor and start playing but the worry I have is we’ve said that for a long while now. Evatt says the same things pre match. And the result is performances aren’t improving and results are getting worse.

Last-12 form: 4th. Derby are 6th. Wigan are 5th. I will grant (and I have said) that our results have dipped, but that's not really added much to the sum of human knowledge.

It needs a big change. New system. A fresh look. Playing the system we are without quality at wing back is madness. We need to freshen things up. Should have happened at Wigan. Didn’t. But absolutely must now. You can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting it to change. Yes it was good pre Christmas (with notable exceptions). But it’s not working now.

Supposition; unprovable and undisprovable.


Basically, any defeat or bad result is now compounded by having to sift through the noise on here to find any signal. It's why I logged off for three days after the weekend, and I might well do so again, because it's just repetitive and tiring. As someone sagely said last night while the fat lady tuned up, sometimes it's best just to forget about Wanderers for a while. It's a difficult thing to do, because bollocks to thinking about the Roman Empire, every five minutes I'm thinking about the selection of the next XI. When we're not doing well it's more painful to do so, and it's sometimes a real chore to come on here. Pity, that.

It’s pure frustration on 2 counts.

1) that I want a football club that is enjoyable again. It’s not been that for a long time.

2) I just can’t buy into the Evatt hype. I think he’s done a good job but he’s got a lot to do to be the sort of manager he seems to think he is and definitely the sort people on here think he is. In the ground mostly the views are far more mixed. There are people who rate him a lot less than I do. If you recall I was never a Megson out. Or a Parky out. Or even a Freedman out. I judge managers by what they get out of the players they have and the resources they have. For me the only manager who underperformed here was Coyle and I was furious he was allowed to continue when it was clear where things were headed. Evatt is not there yet but he’s also miles off Parky even in terms of maximising results to resources and getting the best out of the group he has available. I find it increasingly hard to watch the football. I guess it’s just a project that I’ve never been able to ‘buy into’.

My fault. I will post less. I know it’s quite tiresome to read.

[nicholaldo]

A couple of things, BWFCi, me dear old mate. First off is the apparent glee with which you greet defeat. That's led some forum members to dislike you and call you a non-fan; I'm not among their number as I know you deeply care about the club, but I've also known you long enough to confirm that you're far far busier on here when we lose than when we win. It comes from a good place but it's not a great look.

Secondly, you go about it with a mix of claim, supposition, hyperfocus and goalpost-shifting that perfectly mirrors our age of misinformation.

The way I see it though - Wigan are rubbish but any of the play off contenders bar maybe Posh who would take us on are capable of playing how Wigan did yesterday and causing us issues. Or indeed playing how Wigan did back in early season and pressuring us into a collapse.

Supposition; unprovable and undisprovable.

The pattern of not performing very well when the big games come round, especially when those big games present an opportunity is repeating from last season.

Selective memory. Last season we won 3-0 at Barnsley, 5-0 at Peterborough and 4-0 at Wembley in front of 70,000.

What’s our record against the top 8? I doubt it’s top two…I haven’t checked and have no idea.

Check then. Do the homework to back your claims.

But our form in the last two months hasn’t been very good. We were poor but just about clinging on. Now we are poor and losing. It’s become beyond urgent to stop being poor and start playing but the worry I have is we’ve said that for a long while now. Evatt says the same things pre match. And the result is performances aren’t improving and results are getting worse.

Last-12 form: 4th. Derby are 6th. Wigan are 5th. I will grant (and I have said) that our results have dipped, but that's not really added much to the sum of human knowledge.

It needs a big change. New system. A fresh look. Playing the system we are without quality at wing back is madness. We need to freshen things up. Should have happened at Wigan. Didn’t. But absolutely must now. You can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting it to change. Yes it was good pre Christmas (with notable exceptions). But it’s not working now.

Supposition; unprovable and undisprovable.


Basically, any defeat or bad result is now compounded by having to sift through the noise on here to find any signal. It's why I logged off for three days after the weekend, and I might well do so again, because it's just repetitive and tiring. As someone sagely said last night while the fat lady tuned up, sometimes it's best just to forget about Wanderers for a while. It's a difficult thing to do, because bollocks to thinking about the Roman Empire, every five minutes I'm thinking about the selection of the next XI. When we're not doing well it's more painful to do so, and it's sometimes a real chore to come on here. Pity, that.

It’s pure frustration on 2 counts.

1) that I want a football club that is enjoyable again. It’s not been that for a long time.

2) I just can’t buy into the Evatt hype. I think he’s done a good job but he’s got a lot to do to be the sort of manager he seems to think he is and definitely the sort people on here think he is. In the ground mostly the views are far more mixed. There are people who rate him a lot less than I do. If you recall I was never a Megson out. Or a Parky out. Or even a Freedman out. I judge managers by what they get out of the players they have and the resources they have. For me the only manager who underperformed here was Coyle and I was furious he was allowed to continue when it was clear where things were headed. Evatt is not there yet but he’s also miles off Parky even in terms of maximising results to resources and getting the best out of the group he has available. I find it increasingly hard to watch the football. I guess it’s just a project that I’ve never been able to ‘buy into’.

My fault. I will post less. I know it’s quite tiresome to read.

For what it's worth, I'd agree with that.

[nicholaldo]

I hope Evatt's post-match comments highlighting us dominating possession and dictating the tempo as positive is just media spin and that he's privately aware we were afforded the time and space to do just that as a part of the opposition gameplan.

[Worthy4England]

On the "enjoyable" bit. I guess it depends on what you view as enjoyable. I don't particularly like the tippy tappy posted the same myself - bores me rigid, but if I judge on "wins," I'd be stunned if this wasn't up there in the top three seasons in living memory (maybe a couple of posters aside!). On the other hand, if the only way you're judging "enjoyable" is that we're points clear with games in hand and promoted two weeks before Easter then sure, this is a bit of a roller-coaster.

On the second bit, I genuinely don't care (nor read) much hype one way or another. Folks are entitled to come up with their own conclusions from what they see. Just because there's alleged "hype" that doesn't mean we have to vote the other way in every other post, to defend the hill we're sat atop.

[boltonboris]

Parkinson this season on the biggest wage bill and biggest transfer budget in his division
Division: 4
Position: 4
PPG: 1.76

Evatt this season with the 5th biggest wage bill and 3rd biggest transfer budget
Division: 3
Position: 3
PPG: 1.94

[Worthy4England]

Parkinson this season on the biggest wage bill and biggest transfer budget in his division
Division: 4
Position: 4
PPG: 1.76

Evatt this season with the 5th biggest wage bill and 3rd biggest transfer budget
Division: 3
Position: 3
PPG: 1.94

I'm pretty sure he had a bigger wage bill in 2016/17 than we have today.

2017 - 34 games, 17 wins, 46 "for", 29 "against" - points - 60 vs 34 games, 20 wins, 60 for and 38 against with a better GD.

Bizarrely some people on the Parky out thread were already blaming "everyone other than the Manager" at this point. In fact, there was no point in the Parky Out thread, because the Board were going to back him anyhow...

[truewhite15]

An Allardyce, Parkinson or Megson side would never have gotten to the EFL Trophy Final. They're never beating Sunderland 6-0, Exeter 7-0, or getting in back to back 5-0 wins in the league.


We've seen both the highs and the lows of Brand Evatt. I don't think the lows are any lower than we've experienced under any other aforementioned manager - for all their successes, none of them were perfect. And you can argue all you like about the level that Allardyce's side were playing at. But I celebrate a win over Lincoln City just as much as I celebrated wins over Villa and Everton. That glorious day vs Plymouth felt just as good, if not better than, the memorable evening vs Atletico. For me, the highs of Brand Evatt can feel even higher than I can remember.

[Worthy4England]

Whew - that's nearly as tough as an Insano post! I certainly enjoyed us spanking Sunderland (less so Exeter - it was too one sided to be competitive for me). But I'm not sure I rate a win over Lincoln City as high as a win at Old Trafford, or even a draw v Bayern Munich...

As for the almost heretical Atletico statement. It was valentines and I conned the missus into a "posh seat" in front of the Atletico dignitaries - not much beating that - she's never let me forget it!

I'm in no doubt whatsoever, that I'd rather watch Jay Jay, Djorkaeff, Campo, Stelios, Ricardo, Speedy and the like - but sure there was good and bad.

[TANGODANCER]

So if your team doesn't get promoted, win the league, F.A. Cup or reach the UEFA Cup final, your manager is a failure...Wow...

[truewhite15]

Whew - that's nearly as tough as an Insano post! I certainly enjoyed us spanking Sunderland (less so Exeter - it was too one sided to be competitive for me). But I'm not sure I rate a win over Lincoln City as high as a win at Old Trafford, or even a draw v Bayern Munich...

As for the almost heretical Atletico statement. It was valentines and I conned the missus into a "posh seat" in front of the Atletico dignitaries - not much beating that - she's never let me forget it!

I'm in no doubt whatsoever, that I'd rather watch Jay Jay, Djorkaeff, Campo, Stelios, Ricardo, Speedy and the like - but sure there was good and bad.

No, absolutely, if you were to offer me, here and now, a trip to Old Trafford or a trip to the Globe Arena, guaranteed win at the end of it, then of course you're taking Old Trafford. I get that completely. I think the point I'm making, if I'm making any at all, is that for me a win feels just as sweet regardless of the level. Yes, there are outliers - games where the win feels better than usual. But (and again, this is just my opinion, and maybe I'm easily pleased) those big wins vs Exeter and Sunderland, the win against Plymouth, slot into that "sweeter-than-sweet" category just as much as the massive, much-memoried games of yesteryear.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

My fault. I will post less. I know it’s quite tiresome to read.

For what it's worth, I'd agree with that.

Bit harsh, Nicko

BWFCi - mate - I don't want to stop anyone posting and as ever I'll roll out the old quote about defending your right to expressing a viewpoint even if I disagree with it.

[Worthy4England]

So if your team doesn't get promoted, win the league, F.A. Cup or reach the UEFA Cup final, your manager is a failure...Wow...

I think it's just "promoted" from that list Tango. FA Cup win would be just an upside.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Whew - that's nearly as tough as an Insano post! I certainly enjoyed us spanking Sunderland (less so Exeter - it was too one sided to be competitive for me). But I'm not sure I rate a win over Lincoln City as high as a win at Old Trafford, or even a draw v Bayern Munich...

As for the almost heretical Atletico statement. It was valentines and I conned the missus into a "posh seat" in front of the Atletico dignitaries - not much beating that - she's never let me forget it!

I'm in no doubt whatsoever, that I'd rather watch Jay Jay, Djorkaeff, Campo, Stelios, Ricardo, Speedy and the like - but sure there was good and bad.

No, absolutely, if you were to offer me, here and now, a trip to Old Trafford or a trip to the Globe Arena, guaranteed win at the end of it, then of course you're taking Old Trafford. I get that completely. I think the point I'm making, if I'm making any at all, is that for me a win feels just as sweet regardless of the level. Yes, there are outliers - games where the win feels better than usual. But (and again, this is just my opinion, and maybe I'm easily pleased) those big wins vs Exeter and Sunderland, the win against Plymouth, slot into that "sweeter-than-sweet" category just as much as the massive, much-memoried games of yesteryear.

For me when we play well under Evatt it's really really nice football. But it's the old equation...

'nice' winning football >> 'ugly' winning football >> 'nice' non-winning football >> 'ugly' non-winning football.

So when we pass teams off the pitch it's nicer than a nicked 1-0 from one shot on goal – but there's no doubt which set of fans left happier last night.

[truewhite15]

Whew - that's nearly as tough as an Insano post! I certainly enjoyed us spanking Sunderland (less so Exeter - it was too one sided to be competitive for me). But I'm not sure I rate a win over Lincoln City as high as a win at Old Trafford, or even a draw v Bayern Munich...

As for the almost heretical Atletico statement. It was valentines and I conned the missus into a "posh seat" in front of the Atletico dignitaries - not much beating that - she's never let me forget it!

I'm in no doubt whatsoever, that I'd rather watch Jay Jay, Djorkaeff, Campo, Stelios, Ricardo, Speedy and the like - but sure there was good and bad.

No, absolutely, if you were to offer me, here and now, a trip to Old Trafford or a trip to the Globe Arena, guaranteed win at the end of it, then of course you're taking Old Trafford. I get that completely. I think the point I'm making, if I'm making any at all, is that for me a win feels just as sweet regardless of the level. Yes, there are outliers - games where the win feels better than usual. But (and again, this is just my opinion, and maybe I'm easily pleased) those big wins vs Exeter and Sunderland, the win against Plymouth, slot into that "sweeter-than-sweet" category just as much as the massive, much-memoried games of yesteryear.

For me when we play well under Evatt it's really really nice football. But it's the old equation...

'nice' winning football >> 'ugly' winning football >> 'nice' non-winning football >> 'ugly' non-winning football.

So when we pass teams off the pitch it's nicer than a nicked 1-0 from one shot on goal – but there's no doubt which set of fans left happier last night.

Absolutely. And that's really what I was trying to say originally. A well-drilled and high-performing side under Evatt's leadership (as we have seen) has the capability to absolute blow sides away. I don't think the same could be said of a well-drilled and high-performing Parky side - certainly not to the same degree. You can make an argument with Allardyce, I suppose, but (albeit at a higher level, but with a much better side of his own) those sorts of explosive performances were much fewer and much further between.

[Worthy4England]

Whew - that's nearly as tough as an Insano post! I certainly enjoyed us spanking Sunderland (less so Exeter - it was too one sided to be competitive for me). But I'm not sure I rate a win over Lincoln City as high as a win at Old Trafford, or even a draw v Bayern Munich...

As for the almost heretical Atletico statement. It was valentines and I conned the missus into a "posh seat" in front of the Atletico dignitaries - not much beating that - she's never let me forget it!

I'm in no doubt whatsoever, that I'd rather watch Jay Jay, Djorkaeff, Campo, Stelios, Ricardo, Speedy and the like - but sure there was good and bad.

No, absolutely, if you were to offer me, here and now, a trip to Old Trafford or a trip to the Globe Arena, guaranteed win at the end of it, then of course you're taking Old Trafford. I get that completely. I think the point I'm making, if I'm making any at all, is that for me a win feels just as sweet regardless of the level. Yes, there are outliers - games where the win feels better than usual. But (and again, this is just my opinion, and maybe I'm easily pleased) those big wins vs Exeter and Sunderland, the win against Plymouth, slot into that "sweeter-than-sweet" category just as much as the massive, much-memoried games of yesteryear.

I get you, mate.

There are certainly sweet wins and occasionally draws at whatever level, even now and again an honourable loss - The turn around v Mansfield when King Arthur scored was great - I'll remember that one a while. I thought the game against Barnsley was pretty decent, because it had a pretty consistent tempo, even through it was a 1-1 draw, for sure Plymouth and Sunderland were brill. I'd have to look up, who our back to back 5-0's were against, if I'm being honest - was Peterborough one of them? Despite nearly being our highest home win ever, I'm not sure I remembered Exeter, by the end of that week!

[BWFC_Insane]

Style wise to me a win is a win. But I’d question anyone to describe last night as exciting. I think most fans were voted. It’s not exciting when you create next to nothing and pass the ball between your centre halves.

This for me is where the style debate breaks down. I’d far rather watch Morais pinging it to Madine or Le Fondres head for a goal or even just winning set pieces thinking Wheater or Beevers might score than 200 odd passes between the centre halves with one meaningful effort on target all game.

We’ve had great performances like Sunderland where we have played with real pace and tempo and then it’s excellent. They just seem too few and too far between to me.

[Mar]

An Allardyce, Parkinson or Megson side would never have gotten to the EFL Trophy Final. They're never beating Sunderland 6-0, Exeter 7-0, or getting in back to back 5-0 wins in the league.


We've seen both the highs and the lows of Brand Evatt. I don't think the lows are any lower than we've experienced under any other aforementioned manager - for all their successes, none of them were perfect. And you can argue all you like about the level that Allardyce's side were playing at. But I celebrate a win over Lincoln City just as much as I celebrated wins over Villa and Everton. That glorious day vs Plymouth felt just as good, if not better than, the memorable evening vs Atletico. For me, the highs of Brand Evatt can feel even higher than I can remember.

As much as we love Allardyce, there was some turgid football played at times and a casual insistence on playing the reserves in cups we'd happily want to win, leading to us losing against the likes of Tranmere. Sure the qualities of Stelios, Djorkaeff, Okocha, et al, shone through and made his style of football more appealing, but at its core we were never battering teams 6-0, 8-1, etc. We've had that under Evatt.

Allardyce's resistance to adopting a modern philosophy like Klopp or Guardiola is probably the reason he never progressed past his peaks with us and WHU. His laudable insistence on no tippy tappy football is good when upsetting the big guns in the league, but when it comes to dictating the game and playing teams off the park we often fell short. We certainly didn't consistently beat the teams nearing the bottom of the league and I suspect part of that was how we played under Allardyce. Cut to Evatt and we seem to have a similar issue.

It’s pure frustration on 2 counts.

1) that I want a football club that is enjoyable again. It’s not been that for a long time.

Define long time.

If you can't enjoy the stuff that the club is putting out when beating Barnsley 3-0, Sunderland 6-0, Plymouth Final 4-0, then I suspect that you'd need to question what you do find enjoyable. Perhaps criticising the team and players is where you find enjoyment. That's not for everyone but it does make me wonder.

Sure getting frustrated at some moments is fine. We saw that with Evatt's early tenure and the tippy tappy not coming off. But we didn't throw the baby out with the bath water and we shouldn't do it now.

2) I just can’t buy into the Evatt hype. I think he’s done a good job but he’s got a lot to do to be the sort of manager he seems to think he is and definitely the sort people on here think he is. In the ground mostly the views are far more mixed. There are people who rate him a lot less than I do.

I think your lack of balance seems to paint the picture. When celebrating its never really this players done great or Evatt's done really well its far more negative, as if everyone is consistently failing to live up to expectation. It's almost as if you can't seem to enjoy the good times because you're looking through negatively tinted lenses.

If you recall I was never a Megson out. Or a Parky out. Or even a Freedman out.

Maybe you were never those things because they fed into your criticism? It was evident to all fans that during Megson and Freedman that the club was on a downward trajectory, Megson in terms of apathy and fan engagement, Freedman the same.

I judge managers by what they get out of the players they have and the resources they have. For me the only manager who underperformed here was Coyle and I was furious he was allowed to continue when it was clear where things were headed. Evatt is not there yet but he’s also miles off Parky even in terms of maximising results to resources and getting the best out of the group he has available. I find it increasingly hard to watch the football. I guess it’s just a project that I’ve never been able to ‘buy into’.

It's easy to say Evatt's not maximised results after frustrating defeats. Heck, the only quantifiable metric that we should be looking at is have we improved year on year. Allardyce managed it, Parky managed it and Evatt is managing it (L2-3rd, L1-9th, L1-5th, now L1-3rd). Like his style or not, proof is we've beaten teams far more comfortably than we ever did under Big Sam.


Sure results against Charlton, Blackpool, Wigan are frustrating, but we won't be the only teams experiencing this.

My main gripe with last night was it's a pattern that's repeating and 90 minutes of doing the same thing has yielded the same result. A little bit of tweaking around the edges may just go a long way to resolving our issues.

[truewhite15]

Style wise to me a win is a win. But I’d question anyone to describe last night as exciting. I think most fans were voted. It’s not exciting when you create next to nothing and pass the ball between your centre halves.

This for me is where the style debate breaks down. I’d far rather watch Morais pinging it to Madine or Le Fondres head for a goal or even just winning set pieces thinking Wheater or Beevers might score than 200 odd passes between the centre halves with one meaningful effort on target all game.

We’ve had great performances like Sunderland where we have played with real pace and tempo and then it’s excellent. They just seem too few and too far between to me.

And that stuff was fantastic, of course it was. When it worked. But just as frequently as Evatt's tactics haven't pulled us through, Parkinson's failed too. It's just easier to remember the glory moments through the mists of time, and forget the turgid stuff that filled the gaps.

[Mar]

Style wise to me a win is a win. But I’d question anyone to describe last night as exciting. I think most fans were voted. It’s not exciting when you create next to nothing and pass the ball between your centre halves.

I think there's a lot of us that can get behind the get the ball forward a lot quicker and with purpose desire. We have those long ball switches of play in our arsenal and you see them from or RCB to our LWB or vice versa. It breaks down when the tempo is slow, which we saw last night.

This for me is where the style debate breaks down. I’d far rather watch Morais pinging it to Madine or Le Fondres head for a goal or even just winning set pieces thinking Wheater or Beevers might score than 200 odd passes between the centre halves with one meaningful effort on target all game.

Yes, goal scored > centre backs passing. We can all agree there.

We’ve had great performances like Sunderland where we have played with real pace and tempo and then it’s excellent. They just seem too few and too far between to me.

We've had more of those under Evatt than any other manager. Perhaps you're just impatient?

[TANGODANCER]

My main gripe with last night was it's a pattern that's repeating and 90 minutes of doing the same thing has yielded the same result. A little bit of tweaking around the edges may just go a long way to resolving our issues.

Aye, and a bit of Shooting practise might help..