Would Carlton Palmer have done a worse job as manager?

[Mich Caine]

All I can say is if England had got though last night then wow what a chance England would have had to win the world cup, with France and one of Italy and Germany remaining in the way. England could have won the world cup playing really average rubbish football!

At the end of the day Sven was shocking. All that money he earned and the players he could pick from and he couldn't get anything right. Formations and tactics were shocking, England didn't put in a single performance. And his choice of players were ridiculous. 4 strikers when 2 were clearly not properly fit and he clearly didn't like Crouch and realised Walcott was not up to it. Players like Jenas, Carrick, Downing, etc never were going to feature, he should have taken the likes of Defoe and Bent.

The players didn't even seem to understand the tactics - what happened to Lampard? Gerrard wasn't himself, Beckham who has been crap for ages now did nothing. No attacking players did anything.

Did we even play any half decent teams? We only just beat Paraguay, Ecuador and Trinidad. Sweden murdered us in the second half and yesterday they hardly created anything.

£5m a year was it to come up with that! Would Carlton Palmer honestly do any worse? I don't think he could.

I think its worrying that McLaren is the man to take over - he has been involved for the past number of years when England have performed woefully. He was the one screaming instructions from the side, so why will things improve?

Pathetic England. And now I feel gutted the world cup has no real life in it for me now. England will never have a better opportunity to win the world cup.

Final point - I had £30 on Brazil to win the world cup, I am gutted. They never turned up either, where was Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, etc, etc. Its funny how at the start it was Brazil, England and Argentina who were thought of as the best teams and Germany, France and Italy all were seen as not good enough and got big problems - one of them including Portugal will be world champions. They are all average teams! This has been a very weak world cup, no star player, no great team, etc, etc. Not good!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Not sure about Big Carlton, but I think that Allardyce looks the man for job now more than he ever has - we need a shake up and McClaren will not be the man to deliver that.

[50sQuiff]

Agreed, it seems the FA have made another massive mistake. Allardyce would definitely be the man to shake our national team right up, but the boys in blazers will always look after their own. McClaren will offer continuity as we limp into Euro 2008 in our usual fashion.

I would hardly class Italy as average. One of the best managers in the world, the best defence in the world, a midfield featuring Pirlo and Gattuso and now Totti and Toni looking to be hitting their best form. They would be very worthy World Cup winners in my opinion.

Nor do I think it's been a weak World Cup. There was not hint of formality about the group stage - it was ultra competitive and the overall standard of football was outstanding.

[Dr.Karl]

I doubt Allardyce is the man, he has his favourites at Bolton,so would he have dropped the the likes of Lampard and Beckham in this tournament if he was coach? I seriously doubt it. Add to this, his comments after England's performance against Ecuador. He was happy with the result and totallly disregarded the performance of the team. We'd see a similar style to Erikkson I'm afraid, a very negative attitude.

My pick would have been Scolari, excellent tacttican and motivator. Lets not forget he took an unfancied Brazilian side to world cup glory in Japan, and may do the same with Portugal. He also has the balls to exclude the big players, anyone remember 2004 when he dropped the keeper Baio, ageing defender Couto and Rui Costa after their first game in tournament.

The FA are an absolute joke in the way they choose the new coach.

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

I doubt Allardyce is the man, he has his favourites at Bolton,so would he have dropped the the likes of Lampard and Beckham in this tournament if he was coach? I seriously doubt it. Add to this, his comments after England's performance against Ecuador. He was happy with the result and totallly disregarded the performance of the team. We'd see a similar style to Erikkson I'm afraid, a very negative attitude.

My pick would have been Scolari, excellent tacttican and motivator. Lets not forget he took an unfancied Brazilian side to world cup glory in Japan, and may do the same with Portugal. He also has the balls to exclude the big players, anyone remember 2004 when he dropped the keeper Baio, ageing defender Couto and Rui Costa after their first game in tournament.

The FA are an absolute joke in the way they choose the new coach.

Yes, but it's still better to have someone on the sideline screaming "Beckham you fxcking lazy shxthouse, get your bxstard arse into gear and stop fxcking throwing up ya big fxcking girls bra!!"

[communistworkethic]

so hands up if you'd have taken a shit performance and a 1-0 win yesterday?

[Dr.Karl]

I doubt Allardyce is the man, he has his favourites at Bolton,so would he have dropped the the likes of Lampard and Beckham in this tournament if he was coach? I seriously doubt it. Add to this, his comments after England's performance against Ecuador. He was happy with the result and totallly disregarded the performance of the team. We'd see a similar style to Erikkson I'm afraid, a very negative attitude.

My pick would have been Scolari, excellent tacttican and motivator. Lets not forget he took an unfancied Brazilian side to world cup glory in Japan, and may do the same with Portugal. He also has the balls to exclude the big players, anyone remember 2004 when he dropped the keeper Baio, ageing defender Couto and Rui Costa after their first game in tournament.

The FA are an absolute joke in the way they choose the new coach.

Yes, but it's still better to have someone on the sideline screaming "Beckham you fxcking lazy shxthouse, get your bxstard arse into gear and stop fxcking throwing up ya big fxcking girls bra!!"

We saw Mclaren doing that yesterday, certain players react to different motivations. I think someone like Steve G would react positively to a bollocking off Sam but would Lampard, Beckham, Rio, Both Coles do the same?

[Mar]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of those tactics had actually been picked by Steve McClaren. It's well documented that Middlesbrough have adopted very defensive tactics despite having a quality forward lineup. I can't see us doing much better with him in charge to be honest. His appointment of assistant manager is questionnable aswell (has Tony Adams actually done anything managerial?).

I'm quite appauled by Brian Barwick's reaction aswell. He said in his press statement today that he would let the football experts determine whether Sven had been a success. What the hell is he doing as Chief Exec of the FA if he doesn't know enough about football.

[communistworkethic]

josé and rednose are reknowned for being quiet and unassuming aren't they? You'd never see them up on the sideline shouting and gesticulating or screaming at half-time?

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

I doubt Allardyce is the man, he has his favourites at Bolton,so would he have dropped the the likes of Lampard and Beckham in this tournament if he was coach? I seriously doubt it. Add to this, his comments after England's performance against Ecuador. He was happy with the result and totallly disregarded the performance of the team. We'd see a similar style to Erikkson I'm afraid, a very negative attitude.

My pick would have been Scolari, excellent tacttican and motivator. Lets not forget he took an unfancied Brazilian side to world cup glory in Japan, and may do the same with Portugal. He also has the balls to exclude the big players, anyone remember 2004 when he dropped the keeper Baio, ageing defender Couto and Rui Costa after their first game in tournament.

The FA are an absolute joke in the way they choose the new coach.

Yes, but it's still better to have someone on the sideline screaming "Beckham you fxcking lazy shxthouse, get your bxstard arse into gear and stop fxcking throwing up ya big fxcking girls bra!!"

We saw Mclaren doing that yesterday, certain players react to different motivations. I think someone like Steve G would react positively to a bollocking off Sam but would Lampard, Beckham, Rio, Both Coles do the same?

Would you take notice if Mclaren was screaming at you? I'd be more inclined to laugh my head off! I think you only have to look at how hard our team plays under Sam's management, and what happens to them when they don't!

The England players have to fear of being dropped, I think they bloody would under Sam!

[Dr.Karl]

I doubt Allardyce is the man, he has his favourites at Bolton,so would he have dropped the the likes of Lampard and Beckham in this tournament if he was coach? I seriously doubt it. Add to this, his comments after England's performance against Ecuador. He was happy with the result and totallly disregarded the performance of the team. We'd see a similar style to Erikkson I'm afraid, a very negative attitude.

My pick would have been Scolari, excellent tacttican and motivator. Lets not forget he took an unfancied Brazilian side to world cup glory in Japan, and may do the same with Portugal. He also has the balls to exclude the big players, anyone remember 2004 when he dropped the keeper Baio, ageing defender Couto and Rui Costa after their first game in tournament.

The FA are an absolute joke in the way they choose the new coach.

Yes, but it's still better to have someone on the sideline screaming "Beckham you fxcking lazy shxthouse, get your bxstard arse into gear and stop fxcking throwing up ya big fxcking girls bra!!"

We saw Mclaren doing that yesterday, certain players react to different motivations. I think someone like Steve G would react positively to a bollocking off Sam but would Lampard, Beckham, Rio, Both Coles do the same?

Would you take notice if Mclaren was screaming at you? I'd be more inclined to laugh my head off! I think you only have to look at how hard our team plays under Sam's management, and what happens to them when they don't!

The England players have to fear of being dropped, I think they bloody would under Sam!

My main point is that Sam would adopt a defensive attitude, just like Sven. Lets take you argument that he can motivate the players. To win at international football however you have to be positive, just look at how the four semi-finalist have played so far, its no coincidence that they are there and we're not. No amount of motivation on the sidelines would have help if we adpot a defensive attitude defending a lead, it doesn't seem to make a difference when we're trying to hold a lead at Bolton so why should it at England?

Lets face facts we were going to get found out at one point or another playing like we were and it happened yesterday.

[Dr.Karl]

josé and rednose are reknowned for being quiet and unassuming aren't they? You'd never see them up on the sideline shouting and gesticulating or screaming at half-time?

Both those teams aren't as defensive as England. Sams tactics would be defensive with England and I see no matter how loud you shout at pitchside, holding onto a 1-0 lead will not win you the tournament, you'll get found at one opint or another. How many times have we blown a 1-0 lead last seaosn, trying to hold on to it with Sam motivating the team at pitchside? Plenty, it would be the same with England.

[Soldier_Of_The_White_Army]

I doubt Allardyce is the man, he has his favourites at Bolton,so would he have dropped the the likes of Lampard and Beckham in this tournament if he was coach? I seriously doubt it. Add to this, his comments after England's performance against Ecuador. He was happy with the result and totallly disregarded the performance of the team. We'd see a similar style to Erikkson I'm afraid, a very negative attitude.

My pick would have been Scolari, excellent tacttican and motivator. Lets not forget he took an unfancied Brazilian side to world cup glory in Japan, and may do the same with Portugal. He also has the balls to exclude the big players, anyone remember 2004 when he dropped the keeper Baio, ageing defender Couto and Rui Costa after their first game in tournament.

The FA are an absolute joke in the way they choose the new coach.

Yes, but it's still better to have someone on the sideline screaming "Beckham you fxcking lazy shxthouse, get your bxstard arse into gear and stop fxcking throwing up ya big fxcking girls bra!!"

We saw Mclaren doing that yesterday, certain players react to different motivations. I think someone like Steve G would react positively to a bollocking off Sam but would Lampard, Beckham, Rio, Both Coles do the same?

Would you take notice if Mclaren was screaming at you? I'd be more inclined to laugh my head off! I think you only have to look at how hard our team plays under Sam's management, and what happens to them when they don't!

The England players have to fear of being dropped, I think they bloody would under Sam!

My main point is that Sam would adopt a defensive attitude, just like Sven. Lets take you argument that he can motivate the players. To win at international football however you have to be positive, just look at how the four semi-finalist have played so far, its no coincidence that they are there and we're not. No amount of motivation on the sidelines would have help if we adpot a defensive attitude defending a lead, it doesn't seem to make a difference when we're trying to hold a lead at Bolton so why should it at England?

Lets face facts we were going to get found out at one point or another playing like we were and it happened yesterday.

Yes, but those tactics have proven effective against the best of the Premiership. Sven tried to 'do a Bolton' yesterday and completly fxcked it up. Had Sam had time to train with the team before hand and had the oppurtunity to have a 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation with Cole and Lennon to support the lone striker and been given the tactical know how on how to play those roles, then I believe yesterdays result would have been very different.

[Dr.Karl]

Yes, but those tactics have proven effective against the best of the Premiership. Sven tried to 'do a Bolton' yesterday and completly fxcked it up. Had Sam had time to train with the team before hand and had the oppurtunity to have a 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation with Cole and Lennon to support the lone striker and been given the tactical know how on how to play those roles, then I believe yesterdays result would have been very different.

I wish Sam could give the tactical knowhow to Pedersen to play those roles, SOWTA!

We all agrre that playing 4-5-1/4-3-3 isn't the way to get the best out of England. Sam said before the tournament that he'd play that way. He is just like Sven, he'd want dour 1-0 wins rather than playing expansive football which invariably wins the tournaments. All four teams in the semi finals do exactly that. Scolari would have been the ideal choice, to play the best system and get the most out of the players.

Was 4-5-1/4-3-3 successfull last season? We all agree we could have got a UEFA cup place through the league last season, in that respect you have to say it was unsuccessful because we were too negative at times.

[malcd1]

so hands up if you'd have taken a shit performance and a 1-0 win yesterday?

I would certainly have taken a shit performance and a 1-0 win. What I can't accept is a shit negative performance and losing 1-0. We should have (This is not with the benefit of hindsight) should have played a rather more attacking 4-4-2. Rooney was again left completely isolated.

Hang your head in shame Sven you muppet.

Back to the thread. Anyone in the country could have picked a better squad, team and formation then the useless swede, that includes Carlton Palmer. Sven knew his best players and picked them in a formation which just wasn't right. Gerrard, Lampard and Beckham were all playing badly. Did he consider dropping them. Never. Did he consider leaving one of our two best midfielders (Gerrard and Lampard) out because they are too similar and cannot play together. Not on your life.

[50sQuiff]

so hands up if you'd have taken a shit performance and a 1-0 win yesterday?

All of us, but you don't win tournaments without playing in a style which offers the best chance of long term success. Playing defensive direct football is patently not the most efficient use of the England players. Every time we do it we decrease our chances, and inevitably we were found out.

If anything this World Cup has shown just how important having a tactically brilliant manager at the helm is. Look at Argentina - the best team in the tournament but Pekerman got it badly wrong in one game and it cost them dearly. If only we had a Lippi or Scolari.. this really could have been our year.

[plodder]

so hands up if you'd have taken a shit performance and a 1-0 win yesterday?

I had all my hands up.........

[bw@bw]

It's not often these days that anyone other than Fanz and SH rile me with their posts but Mich, this has to take the biscuit.

Lest you have forgotten, Sven was recruited when English football was at an ALL TIME LOW.
Keegan had failed to get out of the group stages in Euro 2000, had walked out after an abject display against Germany in WC 2002 qualifying, and Howard Wilkinson had salvaged a draw at home against Finland.

At this point the FA had given up on WC 2002, and largely on Euro 2004, so they were looking for someone who could get us to QUALIFY for Wc 2006.

Sven's biggest failing was to peak too soon and set a rod for his own back.

Not only did he do the impossible - qualify for WC 2002 - and get to the QF, only losing to Brazil.

He then followed up by qualifying and getting to the last 8 in euro 2004, only going out on penalties.

And then he did the hat trick by qualifying for his 3rd tournament in succession.
Something no other English manager (except poss B Robson) had ever done.
Even Ramsey had to rely on host privelige.

So Sven has achieved EVERYTHING THE FA ASKED HIM TO DO AT THE OUTSET - AND MORE.

He has put England back at the top table in World football.

No it was not pretty.

And he could have done more with the players available.

But he has gone out at the same stage as Brazil and Argentina.

Now Lampard, Gerrard, Cole(s) etc are good players - but are they really on a par with Ronaldinho, Kaka, Riquelme & co?

So I am disappointed that we have gone out, but not dismayed.


And to put your question into context Mich.

Carlton Palmer was manager of Stockport.

On the day Sam took charge at the Reebok, Stockport were above the Wanderers.

Last season Stockport only just avoided going in to the Conference.

where are the wanderers now?


By all means ask provocative questions - but not plain bloody stupid ones.

[Dr.Karl]

It's not often these days that anyone other than Fanz and SH rile me with their posts but Mich, this has to take the biscuit.

Lest you have forgotten, Sven was recruited when English football was at an ALL TIME LOW.
Keegan had failed to get out of the group stages in Euro 2000, had walked out after an abject display against Germany in WC 2002 qualifying, and Howard Wilkinson had salvaged a draw at home against Finland.

At this point the FA had given up on WC 2002, and largely on Euro 2004, so they were looking for someone who could get us to QUALIFY for Wc 2006.

Sven's biggest failing was to peak too soon and set a rod for his own back.

Not only did he do the impossible - qualify for WC 2002 - and get to the QF, only losing to Brazil.

He then followed up by qualifying and getting to the last 8 in euro 2004, only going out on penalties.

And then he did the hat trick by qualifying for his 3rd tournament in succession.
Something no other English manager (except poss B Robson) had ever done.
Even Ramsey had to rely on host privelige.

So Sven has achieved EVERYTHING THE FA ASKED HIM TO DO AT THE OUTSET - AND MORE.

He has put England back at the top table in World football.

No it was not pretty.

And he could have done more with the players available.

But he has gone out at the same stage as Brazil and Argentina.

Now Lampard, Gerrard, Cole(s) etc are good players - but are they really on a par with Ronaldinho, Kaka, Riquelme & co?

So I am disappointed that we have gone out, but not dismayed.


And to put your question into context Mich.

Carlton Palmer was manager of Stockport.

On the day Sam took charge at the Reebok, Stockport were above the Wanderers.

Last season Stockport only just avoided going in to the Conference.

where are the wanderers now?


By all means ask provocative questions - but not plain bloody stupid ones.

You have to look at the present, the here and now. The Brazialians went out to an inspired French side and Argentina went out to the hosts who've got serious momentum. By those standards, our exit was disappointing. I could take elimination if that occured but to lose to a decent not world class team is sickening and the worst thing is most could see it coming.

The whole Sven got us out of a mess is a myth, absolute myth. We had plenty of games to recover the situation and get into that second spot. Who did we beat in the WC, the following year? A disappointing Argentina and Denmark, thats it. The exit to that was disappointing too, to lose to 10 men and not giving it a real go is sickening too.

The whole qualification for three tournaments in a row is a myth too. How many played in the world cup in 1990? I think it was 24. The Euro of two years after was eight. Again I'd be disappointed if we hadn't have qualified for the past three tournaments with the number of spots available.

Now come on, its not like he brought the youth through the ranks is it? He has been seriously lucky with the players available and this time round had the players to win the World Cup but blew it. Absolutely blew it.