Middle East Crisis

[Harry Genshaw]

Very true bish. Christianity and the Bible have at least adapted somewhat to rules made 2000 years aga. The Torah and the Koran are in a timelock, using the word of God to justify violence and making no attempt to allow for the passage of time. The jawbone of an ass has been replaced by a baseball bat, but the principles remain the same. Just my opinion.

Surely its violent nutters using the religion as an excuse rather than the religions, or their teachings, themselves? I cant imagine (though I'd be prepared to be corrected) that The Koran advocates violence anymore than The Bible.

[TANGODANCER]

Very true bish. Christianity and the Bible have at least adapted somewhat to rules made 2000 years aga. The Torah and the Koran are in a timelock, using the word of God to justify violence and making no attempt to allow for the passage of time. The jawbone of an ass has been replaced by a baseball bat, but the principles remain the same. Just my opinion.

Surely its violent nutters using the religion as an excuse rather than the religions, or their teachings, themselves? I cant imagine (though I'd be prepared to be corrected) that The Koran advocates violence anymore than The Bible.

"Battle of Jericho", Samson, etc etc.???

[thebish]

religion is tied up in the middle east conflict (which, in reality, is several conflicts...) - but in essence it is not an argument between religions.

If you reads the "road map" the latest attempt to bring peace to Israel/Palestine - none of it deals with theology or religion - not one chapter or one page. The conflict is about land.

The Palestinians feel (with quite a bit of justification - in fact - a shedload of justification) that Israel squeezes them so that they simply do not have a viable state - settlements, road-blocks, "security" wall, cutting off water supplies etc. etc...

Israel feels (with quite a bit of justification) that they are under threat from missiles and "terrorist" threats - which is why they use the word "security" such a lot.

The Palestinians respond with what they would call a guerilla war - the Israelis call it terrorism - and the Israelis respond with even harsher oppression (bull-dozing entire streets, for instance, and tearing up ancient olive groves - out of spite) and effectively blockading - you cannot have a viable state if you cannot travel to and from - the israelis control the airspace and the coastline and have checkpoints on all the roads...

The "road map" tries to balance Israeli security with the right of Palestine to have a viable state (in terms of size, geography - ie. not cuttting it in half - resources, and freedom to travel..

it's a conundrum - but when it boils down to it it's not really about religion...

(if it was then the "road map" would be about theology - it's not...)

[Apathy]

Surely its violent nutters using the religion as an excuse rather than the religions, or their teachings, themselves? I cant imagine (though I'd be prepared to be corrected) that The Koran advocates violence anymore than The Bible.

The Bible is full of violence (probably more than in the Koran) but at least Christians tend to ignore it, as they know the bible is written by man and not the inerrant word of God.

Muslims on the other hand believe that every word of the Koran is the direct word of God and that they are not allowed to question it.

With passages like those below, you can see how some people can be brainwashed into strapping a bomb to there chest and killing infidels, for the glory of God.

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." - Koran 9:123

or

"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them." - Koran 9:5

[thebish]

Mmmm... maybe so - but that's not what the conflict is about in Palestine/Israel - it's an Intifada - an uprising against occupation - not that much unlike the ANC uprising against Apartheid (you don't catch many people calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist anymore...)

the western world seems very worried about Iran getting nukes. I'd say that Israel having nukes (which they do) is in the short term a far more worrying prospect.... (they locked up the bloke who told us about them for years in solitary confinement) - Mordechai Vanunu he was called... only just released after 18 years in prison

has anyone here ever heard bush or blair suggest that we take them off Israel??

[InsaneApache]

Surely its violent nutters using the religion as an excuse rather than the religions, or their teachings, themselves? I cant imagine (though I'd be prepared to be corrected) that The Koran advocates violence anymore than The Bible.

The Bible is full of violence (probably more than in the Koran) but at least Christians tend to ignore it, as they know the bible is written by man and not the inerrant word of God.

Muslims on the other hand believe that every word of the Koran is the direct word of God and that they are not allowed to question it.

With passages like those below, you can see how some people can be brainwashed into strapping a bomb to there chest and killing infidels, for the glory of God.

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." - Koran 9:123

or

"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them." - Koran 9:5

But not the 'people of the book'.IE: Christians and Jews.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

To get any American administration's take on the situation you must always bear in mind that the largest population of Jews in any city in the world is New York - certainly more than in any Israeli city.

The position of the Jewish lobby in the States is virtually unassailable.

[50sQuiff]

That's quite a fair run down of the history Sluffy. You did miss out the terrorist campaign waged by the Israeli Irgun against the British however. The Israelis unsurprisingly see them in different terms.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 17,00.html may be of interest.

Obviously both sides are so fecked up beyond all belief it's hard to see either ever fulfilling the criteria to proceed with the road map. Right or wrong, it's disastrous to see a viable economy and democracy being destroyed. This is hardly likely to ensure the future safety of Israel in the medium to long term is it?

[sluffy]

That's quite a fair run down of the history Sluffy. You did miss out the terrorist campaign waged by the Israeli Irgun against the British however. The Israelis unsurprisingly see them in different terms.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 17,00.html may be of interest.

Thanks Quiff.

I was trying to keep the summary as simple as I could.

Funnily enough the only part of the 'troubles' that I have any connection with are the 'Irgun's'!

My late father was stationed in Palestine area after the war and before 'Israel' came into being. He was shot at on a number of occassions by the Irgun and I think it fair to say that he was not a big Israeli 'fan' from then on!

[Zulus Thousand of em]

That's quite a fair run down of the history Sluffy. You did miss out the terrorist campaign waged by the Israeli Irgun against the British however. The Israelis unsurprisingly see them in different terms.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 17,00.html may be of interest.

Thanks Quiff.

I was trying to keep the summary as simple as I could.

Funnily enough the only part of the 'troubles' that I have any connection with are the 'Irgun's'!

My late father was stationed in Palestine area after the war and before 'Israel' came into being. He was shot at on a number of occassions by the Irgun and I think it fair to say that he was not a big Israeli 'fan' from then on!

How spooky is that? I was just debating whether I ought to lob in my father's experiences when I saw this!

My late father was serving in The British Mandate of Palestine (as it then was) at the same time. He was part of the operation to secure the area around the King David Hotel after the blast. By chance, he was within 200 yards of the place when the bomb went off.

He was also part of the operation tasked with finding two young British Army sergeants who had been kidnapped by Irgun (nothing new, here either!) The sergeants were found, dead, hanging in an orange grove. The leader of Irgun (pursued around Palestine unsuccessfully by my father and many others) was a young Menachem Begin - future Israeli Prime Minister. Dad's language always got a bit choice when he saw him on TV in the 1970's!

One of the ironies about Irgun was that most of its members had been trained and served in the British Army (and Polish units) during the recently ended WW2.

Dad carried those memories (particularly the two sergeants) with him through his life. Surprisingly, he always had a grudging respect for Israelis and the State of Israel. He held them in higher regard than their Arab adversaries.

The whole Arab - Israeli conflict is a frightening, long-running story. Ably summed up for us by Sluffy, in my humble opinion.

[InsaneApache]

One of the results of the Jewish terrorists actions was a massive wave of anti-semitism in the UK. The prevailing thought was that 'after all we had gone through in WWII to help these bastards and now they go around killing British soldiers'.

I have an uncle who was one of the first British troops to liberate Belsen. He never, ever, talks about it. It was my dad who told me he was there. Their uncle was in the Palestinian police force and was mortally wounded. When he was on traffic duty a gunbattle broke out and he had his heel shot off, the ensuing shock killed him.

On the other hand I was lucky enough to go to Stand Grammar in Whitefield that had around about 25%-30% Jewish pupils and I never had any problem with any of them. (except when they used to bugger off home at dinner time during passover as they must be indoors by dusk ). I have had several Jewesses as girlfriends and man were they hot!

If you were to put yourselves in the place of the Israelis who IIRC suffered 300 'suicide' bombers in the last 12 months or so then you may get an understanding of where they are coming from. Put it this way, if the UK had a wave of 300 'suicide' bombers in a space of 12 months, then I have no doubt that the Moslems would be rounded up and put into camps before deporting them. Not a nice scenario but a probable one IMHO.

[white blood]

One of the results of the Jewish terrorists actions was a massive wave of anti-semitism in the UK. The prevailing thought was that 'after all we had gone through in WWII to help these bastards and now they go around killing British soldiers'.

I have an uncle who was one of the first British troops to liberate Belsen. He never, ever, talks about it. It was my dad who told me he was there. Their uncle was in the Palestinian police force and was mortally wounded. When he was on traffic duty a gunbattle broke out and he had his heel shot off, the ensuing shock killed him.

On the other hand I was lucky enough to go to Stand Grammar in Whitefield that had around about 25%-30% Jewish pupils and I never had any problem with any of them. (except when they used to bugger off home at dinner time during passover as they must be indoors by dusk ). I have had several Jewesses as girlfriends and man were they hot!
If you were to put yourselves in the place of the Israelis who IIRC suffered 300 'suicide' bombers in the last 12 months or so then you may get an understanding of where they are coming from. Put it this way, if the UK had a wave of 300 'suicide' bombers in a space of 12 months, then I have no doubt that the Moslems would be rounded up and put into camps before deporting them. Not a nice scenario but a probable one IMHO.

Any pictures?

[Harry Genshaw]

If you were to put yourselves in the place of the Israelis who IIRC suffered 300 'suicide' bombers in the last 12 months or so then you may get an understanding of where they are coming from. Put it this way, if the UK had a wave of 300 'suicide' bombers in a space of 12 months, then I have no doubt that the Moslems would be rounded up and put into camps before deporting them. Not a nice scenario but a probable one IMHO.

I think thats a fair point but regrettably its usually reported that way in the media e.g 'Israel responded to the latest bout of suicide bombs by clamping down hard on Palestinians' as opposed to 'A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in response to more Palestinian children being murdered by illegal settlers'.

Its an uneven fight and for every Israeli victim theres several more who were Palestinian.

[H. Pedersen]

To get any American administration's take on the situation you must always bear in mind that the largest population of Jews in any city in the world is New York - certainly more than in any Israeli city.

The position of the Jewish lobby in the States is virtually unassailable.

Which is absolutely horrifying considering the fact that there are a number of traitors in their ranks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIPAC_espionage_scandal

[picaro]

shouldn't we love all these polemics to the politicians who truly know what and how to deal with crisis like this...

[InsaneApache]

shouldn't we love all these polemics to the politicians who truly know what and how to deal with crisis like this...

You mean like Robin Cook, who as Foreign secretary, went to the West Bank and gave a speech that started a riot that lasted for days, left dozens dead and hundreds injured?

[white blood]

well here is what Mr Galloway thinks about it all, he seems a liitle uptight?

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2006 ... sky-p1.php

Apparently Hezbollah are not a terrorist organisation?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Apparently Hezbollah are not a terrorist organisation?

They're not, in the way the term is usually understood.

[ratbert]

Hezbollah translates as 'Party of God'

[Hoboh]

I thought this thread would be handy for the current mess over there so leaving the politics thread uncluttered.