Trash!

[thebish]

Setting aside my amazement at the outrageously crass notion of one part of society dictating to another that it is better qualified to reproduce, for whatever reason, I'm astounded at some of the people who even countenance this being a good idea. .

Maybe more one section of society caring enough to get a grip of the blatant promotion of sex as the ultimate end in that " do as you like, say what you like" world you're always promoting Pru?

where has Pru promoted this "do as you like, say what you like" world? I must have missed it. I thought Pru was often accused of wanting to restrict the good old "British freedom of speech" by not wanting people to refer to others as "pakis" or "wogs" or "gypos" or "eyeties" - or of spoiling peoples' fun by objecting to racially stereotyped Irish jokes.

he can't be accused of both surely?? what on earth do you mean?

You obviously haven't read many of Pru's views on other threads then. You've never heard him say that people should be able to do and say as they like? Really?

no - perhaps you could quote an example or two? (bet you can't)

[TANGODANCER]

Setting aside my amazement at the outrageously crass notion of one part of society dictating to another that it is better qualified to reproduce, for whatever reason, I'm astounded at some of the people who even countenance this being a good idea. .

Maybe more one section of society caring enough to get a grip of the blatant promotion of sex as the ultimate end in that " do as you like, say what you like" world you're always promoting Pru? Maybe accepting that intelligence and education levels, and thus levels of responsible behaviour aren't and never will be a level playing field amongst all factions of society. Maybe promoting sex education to include the fact that pregnancy amongst kids too young to realise its folly may prevent themselves from having any real form of life because of it. For kids to have any chance at all they need guidance, something they aren't going to get from being born and brought up with the notion that having three kids by seventeen and living on social security is a career choice. That's no form of life either for them or the poor kids who follow. Promoting some form of responsibility is hardly dictating, more a form of hopefully improving things by accepting the wrongs and trying to right them surely? You don't have to be religious to accept that right and wrong exist in equal proportions in the world.

To all these problems you mention, how many of them, and in what way, is handing out 'breeding licences' going to help?

Too silly a notion to even answer.

but it is precisely the argument into which you clumsily stumled....

And which I'll just as happily stumle (maybe stumble even) out of since only your views matter. Good evening.

[thebish]

Maybe more one section of society caring enough to get a grip of the blatant promotion of sex as the ultimate end in that " do as you like, say what you like" world you're always promoting Pru? Maybe accepting that intelligence and education levels, and thus levels of responsible behaviour aren't and never will be a level playing field amongst all factions of society. Maybe promoting sex education to include the fact that pregnancy amongst kids too young to realise its folly may prevent themselves from having any real form of life because of it. For kids to have any chance at all they need guidance, something they aren't going to get from being born and brought up with the notion that having three kids by seventeen and living on social security is a career choice. That's no form of life either for them or the poor kids who follow. Promoting some form of responsibility is hardly dictating, more a form of hopefully improving things by accepting the wrongs and trying to right them surely? You don't have to be religious to accept that right and wrong exist in equal proportions in the world.

To all these problems you mention, how many of them, and in what way, is handing out 'breeding licences' going to help?

Too silly a notion to even answer.

but it is precisely the argument into which you clumsily stumled....

And which I'll just as happily stumle (maybe stumble even) out of since only your views matter. Good evening.

pathetic!

[TANGODANCER]

Setting aside my amazement at the outrageously crass notion of one part of society dictating to another that it is better qualified to reproduce, for whatever reason, I'm astounded at some of the people who even countenance this being a good idea. .

Maybe more one section of society caring enough to get a grip of the blatant promotion of sex as the ultimate end in that " do as you like, say what you like" world you're always promoting Pru?

where has Pru promoted this "do as you like, say what you like" world? I must have missed it. I thought Pru was often accused of wanting to restrict the good old "British freedom of speech" by not wanting people to refer to others as "pakis" or "wogs" or "gypos" or "eyeties" - or of spoiling peoples' fun by objecting to racially stereotyped Irish jokes.

he can't be accused of both surely?? what on earth do you mean?

You obviously haven't read many of Pru's views on other threads then. You've never heard him say that people should be able to do and say as they like? Really?

no - perhaps you could quote an example or two? (bet you can't)

Why not ask him. I respect his honesty. If he says he never said any such thing I'll apologise and withdraw the remark.

[thebish]

Maybe more one section of society caring enough to get a grip of the blatant promotion of sex as the ultimate end in that " do as you like, say what you like" world you're always promoting Pru?

where has Pru promoted this "do as you like, say what you like" world? I must have missed it. I thought Pru was often accused of wanting to restrict the good old "British freedom of speech" by not wanting people to refer to others as "pakis" or "wogs" or "gypos" or "eyeties" - or of spoiling peoples' fun by objecting to racially stereotyped Irish jokes.

he can't be accused of both surely?? what on earth do you mean?

You obviously haven't read many of Pru's views on other threads then. You've never heard him say that people should be able to do and say as they like? Really?

no - perhaps you could quote an example or two? (bet you can't)

Why not ask him. I respect his honesty. If he says he never said any such thing I'll apologise and withdraw the remark.

ok - Pru - have you constantly promoted a "do as you like, say what you like" world?

[Worthy4England]

Setting aside my amazement at the outrageously crass notion of one part of society dictating to another that it is better qualified to reproduce, for whatever reason, I'm astounded at some of the people who even countenance this being a good idea. What are we going to call this,eu-conomics? I know that I have read posts on this very forum from members involved in this debate on how they during the jobs crisis of the 80s worked harder than their peers to get a good job, how they hoisted themselves up the economic ladder, well what if somebody had decided their parents weren’t affluent enough to give birth to them? Remember, there is always someone richer, paying more taxes, who could claim to be paying for your kids. What of all the great people who have risen out of abject poverty, taken that greatest of motivators and used that injustice to drive their lives. A close friend of mine comes from a family of six (including parents) supported only by his fathers low income. He has just got a 2:1 from the fourth best university in the world (apparently). Are we saying his parents shouldn't have been allowed to have him? Why should I, or you, or your friend pay for the milk of a kid whose parents made the financially irresponsible decision to have him? Because that’s what we do, that’s what society does, we are better than our instinct for individual self-preservation.

2:1? Might not even get an interview with one of them in this day and age...

I really don't understand where your amazement comes from that society as a whole should be entitled to expect that people will make a decent fist of trying to pay for the kids that they have, instead of expecting someone else to pick up the tab. To me it's just plain decency to expect that if you bring a child into the world then you pay for it's general upbringing. Your close friend would of course be welcome into the world as his parents made the effort. I'm ok with that. No one anywhere said people on low incomes can't have kids - maybe you just made that bit up.

Although now you mention it having 4 kids if you can barely afford one, is just taking the piss. I think we'll find a clause to deal with that.

[thebish]

Worthy - as I suspect you are well aware - nobody here is advocating bringing children into the world with no means of support..

the question is whether that should be enshrined in law with (drastic) penalties.

i think most people would go as far as disapproving and tut-tutting.

advocating a law and enforced castration/abortion is a step further - and not a step that (to most people) seems proportionate to the "problem".

People shouldn't - but neither should the state drag women off for enforced abortion or clap men in chains and sedate them (depending on how liberal you are) before slicing their knackers off.

William asked you - quite reasonably - about your idea of taking it beyond mere tut-tutting - and you leapt straight to abortion/castration - thus (I think) showing how ludicrous it is to try to hold on to the idea that such a thing could ever be legally enforced....

[Worthy4England]

Worthy - as I suspect you are well aware - nobody here is advocating bringing children into the world with no means of support..

the question is whether that should be enshrined in law with (drastic) penalties.

i think most people would go as far as disapproving and tut-tutting.

advocating a law and enforced castration/abortion is a step further - and not a step that (to most people) seems proportionate to the "problem".

People shouldn't - but neither should the state drag women off for enforced abortion or clap men in chains and sedate them (depending on how liberal you are) before slicing their knackers off.

William asked you - quite reasonably - about your idea of taking it beyond mere tut-tutting - and you leapt straight to abortion/castration - thus (I think) showing how ludicrous it is to try to hold on to the idea that such a thing could ever be legally enforced....

Nobody here is advocating people bringing kids into the world without support, but they're happy to allow it to continue. As you say tut-tutting.

Lets consider proportionality. No-one breaks the law in the first place, nobody gets castrated (which I believe someone else threw into the argument rather than me, but I could be wrong on that). That's 0-0 on proportionality. What's difficult about that. People get a choice. On a wider issue, many people are wholly pissed off with the idea of proportionality in sentencing anyhow.

As WtW pointed out, they're bright enough to breed, so they'll be every bit bright enough to understand they're breaking the new law and what the associated penalties are. Quite frankly, if someone said to me "Mr Worthy, you have your x kids and that's all you're allowed - where x could be zero - the penalty for having any more is castration." I think I'd be able to make arrangements of some sort not to have any more.

As for the enforcement, we'll set up a helpline (like the benefit fraud helpline) offering incentives to the public to tell us when folk are pregnant. I agree we could get some false alarms with fat people being accused of being pregnant, but we'd just have to live with that.

[thebish]

I think you may have a different idea about what "proportionality" means than I do - which is fine, English is a complex language capable of multiple meanings.

I am happy to remain with the tut-tutting - and not take it any further - because I would rather live in the society that merely tuts than the onethat has a state which forcibly aborts and castrates..

but - you're quite within your rights to dream of another world and wish it were so...

[Worthy4England]

Sure, but there's no forced anything if people don't break the law...

Individual choice and individual responsibility, enhanced with a welfare system that promotes both, and helps people for making an effort even if they don't ultimately succeed.

Rather than a set of systems that promote the idea that the State will cover personal choices (things you can make a conscious decision about) and pick up the tab when people quite frankly don't get of their collective arses and have the ability to sh*g their way to a bigger council house. Systems that allow thieves to break into your home with near impunity. What about defending people who try and live life within Society's norms of acceptable behaviour?

No, we couldn't do that could we?

[thebish]

Sure, but there's no forced anything if people don't break the law...

Individual choice and individual responsibility, enhanced with a welfare system that promotes both, and helps people for making an effort even if they don't ultimately succeed.

Rather than a set of systems that promote the idea that the State will cover personal choices (things you can make a conscious decision about) and pick up the tab when people quite frankly don't get of their collective arses and have the ability to sh*g their way to a bigger council house. Systems that allow thieves to break into your home with near impunity. What about defending people who try and live life within Society's norms of acceptable behaviour?

No, we couldn't do that could we?

I suspect you may have an exaggerated sense of the size of the "problem". Like I said - I don't think bringing kids into the world without the means of support is a good thing - but I think your proffered "solution" would make the country a place less like one I want to live in - the medicine is worse than the disease. As I said - you are entirely welcome to dream of such a world being created so that you can live in it.

[InsaneApache]

When I had kids I stopped at two. The reason being I coundn't afford any more. Having more would not have been fair on me, my then wife and the two kids we already had. One thing about having kids is that they cost an awful lot of money.


As for what to do about folks having kids when they can't support them, here's an idea.

If you're on benefits then the children you already have will be funded by the state (taxpayer), if however you elect to have more babies whilst in the receipt of benefit, then that child has to be funded out of the resources you already have. No increase in benefits for that child.

Is it harsh? Possibly. Will it concentrate minds? Certainly.

I understand that personal responsibilty has taken a bit of a back seat this last decade or so. Perhaps it's time the ethic was revived.

Oh and Worthy mea culpa on the cutting off of their balls!

[thebish]

apart from it creating a society I wouldn't want to live in - there's little evidence it would work..

the workhouse never stopped poor people having kids... neither does China's 1-child-only law...

[2399]

The other Day a nine year old tipped acid from a top a place,
Got a baby and kid or something.

[InsaneApache]

apart from it creating a society I wouldn't want to live in - there's little evidence it would work..

the workhouse never stopped poor people having kids... neither does China's 1-child-only law...

No one's saying that the poor can't have kids. Just that if they do, then they shouldn't expect others to pay for them. When my first lad was conceived, I lived in Radcliffe and had just been laid off (again) during the winter of discontent. Guess what I did? I got on my bike and got a job in Yorkshire. Moving over there shortly after he was born.

No time or sympathy for lazy buggers sat on their arses watching re-runs of Oprah.

[thebish]

apart from it creating a society I wouldn't want to live in - there's little evidence it would work..

the workhouse never stopped poor people having kids... neither does China's 1-child-only law...

No one's saying that the poor can't have kids. Just that if they do, then they shouldn't expect others to pay for them.

Worthy is saying exactly that. if you have not enough dosh to raise one - you do not get a license - and it is illegal for you to have one. if you fall pregnant without a license - then your foetus is aborted - you are sterilized and your sexual partner castrated.

[InsaneApache]

I'm just iching to do a Godwin.

[thebish]

I'm just iching to do a Godwin.

it wouldn't work in this instance as Worthy already trumped that...

[CAPSLOCK]

apart from it creating a society I wouldn't want to live in

A good number of us are stuck with that, now

[thebish]

apart from it creating a society I wouldn't want to live in

A good number of us are stuck with that, now

my heart bleeds...