General Chit Chat

[Prufrock]

I'd wager it was the first.

It is interesting though, so, erm, well done from me ?! I'm certainly not the mathematician.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'd wager it was the first.

It is interesting though, so, erm, well done from me ?! I'm certainly not the mathematician.

And I think you would win your wager, although I am no mathematician either. If a blue moon happens once every 365 days and a Preston Guild starts once every 20 x 365 days, they would coincide on average after over 7000 years (other things being equal). The Preston guild has not been going that long and there would be some doubt about the lunar calendar. Of course other things are not equal. I am uncertain how they determine the date to start a Preston Guild but it appears to occur late August early September. Therefore it could only coincide with an August blue moon, which do not occur once every year but once every 11.25 years. Since a blue moon can only occur on the last three days of August, it will be on a specific August date every 33.75 years. The odds against a Preston Guild starting in a year when there is an August full moon are of course dramatically higher. This would be over 1900 years assuming as fixed start date for the guild. If however, the guild started 'on the last Thursday in August' the odds would again lengthen significantly for obvious reasons. Well done, Prufrock said he awaiting the scorn of TW mathematicians

[thebish]

What are you on about bish? I never mentioned bullying, it was Bobo. I just laughed at the idea.

well - here's my thought process...

someone who I don't always agree with - but whose opinion I listen - to tells me I am bullying you - so i take that seriously and decide there is no harm apologising. I thought it was at least possible that's how it came across and that you were too polite to make such an accusation.

if - as it turns out - Bobo is talking out of his hairy clown-arse and nobly riding to the rescue of someone who doesn't need rescuing or want to be rescued - then that's a different matter!!

either way - apologising can never be a bad thing...

[thebish]

For what it's worth: " Descended into hell" is a classic example of one of those "word of man" things I spoke of. That, I decidedly don't agree with as it has no basis. That's about it from me.

indeed... we are in full agreement.

I sometimes wonder if it is merely an idea coined to justify a new theme for gory paintings of the "harrowing of hell"!

I've always found it difficult to accommodate any such ideas into my (ever-changing as I get older) theology. My sticking point is quite "domestic"... I have three kids - two of them embrace a christian faith, the other one does not. he is not anti-church and wouldn't describe himself as atheist - the whole shebang just doesn't work or make sense for him.

I am hugely proud of him for this - he might have imagined it would have been far easier just to go with the family flow - but no - he has thought through his own path (not that I think for a minute that the other two have just "gone with the flow" - that would be out of character for both of them too!)

now... as his father - if I can be proud of him for this choice - rather than vengefully throwing him out of the house into a pit of fiery sulphur... then the God I believe in (who has an infinitely greater capacity for love than a crotchety old bugger like me) won't be doing that either - and if "he" did - then "he" wouldn't really be worth believing in.

so - I don't believe in hell - and I never have. I once used to hold (with the famous former bishop of Durham) that it existed but had always been empty and would always be empty - but that was many years ago...

as far as I can gather - people believe in hell - not so much because they think God is vengeful (though - this can be the case in places of the world where christians are or have been persecuted - hell can then understandably become the place where the world is put to rights and their persecutors are punished) - but rather, in the comfortable west at least, Hell has become necessary for some christians because of their doctrine of free-will..

the argument goes that if we have free will then we must be able to choose ultimately to reject God. if there is no hell (they argue) then we are being forced to join in with the whole God-thing after death - being forced due to lack of alternative is not free-will.

my best-fit theory (and it can only be that) is that whatever it looks like, death brings an encounter with God which for each one of us is an epiphany - a painful experience of seeing clearly for the first time how crappily we have used our lives - how far short of what we could have been we have fallen (I guess in a way that will be hellish) - and each one of us is changed by that encounter and nobody then makes the decision to turn away...

hence the Bishop of Durham's empty hell idea - it has to be there in case anyone ever decides to make that choice - but nobody ever does...

and if the bishop of Durham was right and such a place existed - then it wouldn't be a place of torture and forky-tailed devils - any pain and torture would be internally self-chosen - the cost of living with the isolation we had opted for - and even then it would not be eternal for I don't believe God ever gives up the gentle wooing of the human soul...

(part of the purpose of the harrowing of hell idea is precisely this - that there isn't a place that is shut-off to God - even if we were there he would still come calling us...)

anyway - that's probably more than you wanted - but you have an able champion fighting your cause and urging me to tell you more I am what they call a Universal Salvationist - everyone goes to heaven - life on earth is not about earning your place "up there".

[Lost Leopard Spot]

For what it's worth: " Descended into hell" is a classic example of one of those "word of man" things I spoke of. That, I decidedly don't agree with as it has no basis. That's about it from me.

indeed... we are in full agreement.

I sometimes wonder if it is merely an idea coined to justify a new theme for gory paintings of the "harrowing of hell"!

I've always found it difficult to accommodate any such ideas into my (ever-changing as I get older) theology. My sticking point is quite "domestic"... I have three kids - two of them embrace a christian faith, the other one does not. he is not anti-church and wouldn't describe himself as atheist - the whole shebang just doesn't work or make sense for him.

I am hugely proud of him for this - he might have imagined it would have been far easier just to go with the family flow - but no - he has thought through his own path (not that I think for a minute that the other two have just "gone with the flow" - that would be out of character for both of them too!)

now... as his father - if I can be proud of him for this choice - rather than vengefully throwing him out of the house into a pit of fiery sulphur... then the God I believe in (who has an infinitely greater capacity for love than a crotchety old bugger like me) won't be doing that either - and if "he" did - then "he" wouldn't really be worth believing in.

so - I don't believe in hell - and I never have. I once used to hold (with the famous former bishop of Durham) that it existed but had always been empty and would always be empty - but that was many years ago...

as far as I can gather - people believe in hell - not so much because they think God is vengeful (though - this can be the case in places of the world where christians are or have been persecuted - hell can then understandably become the place where the world is put to rights and their persecutors are punished) - but rather, in the comfortable west at least, Hell has become necessary for some christians because of their doctrine of free-will..

the argument goes that if we have free will then we must be able to choose ultimately to reject God. if there is no hell (they argue) then we are being forced to join in with the whole God-thing after death - being forced due to lack of alternative is not free-will.

my best-fit theory (and it can only be that) is that whatever it looks like, death brings an encounter with God which for each one of us is an epiphany - a painful experience of seeing clearly for the first time how crappily we have used our lives - how far short of what we could have been we have fallen (I guess in a way that will be hellish) - and each one of us is changed by that encounter and nobody then makes the decision to turn away...

hence the Bishop of Durham's empty hell idea - it has to be there in case anyone ever decides to make that choice - but nobody ever does...

and if the bishop of Durham was right and such a place existed - then it wouldn't be a place of torture and forky-tailed devils - any pain and torture would be internally self-chosen - the cost of living with the isolation we had opted for - and even then it would not be eternal for I don't believe God ever gives up the gentle wooing of the human soul...

(part of the purpose of the harrowing of hell idea is precisely this - that there isn't a place that is shut-off to God - even if we were there he would still come calling us...)

anyway - that's probably more than you wanted - but you have an able champion fighting your cause and urging me to tell you more I am what they call a Universal Salvationist - everyone goes to heaven - life on earth is not about earning your place "up there".

What, even the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - he goes to Heaven too. Or Ian Brady? (welcome to Heaven son, there's some boys you can torture at the back of the Elysian fields over there). Flabbergastignation.

[thebish]

What, even the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - he goes to Heaven too. Or Ian Brady? (welcome to Heaven son, there's some boys you can torture at the back of the Elysian fields over there). Flabbergastignation.

yeah - and even me - and even you!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

What, even the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - he goes to Heaven too. Or Ian Brady? (welcome to Heaven son, there's some boys you can torture at the back of the Elysian fields over there). Flabbergastignation.

yeah - and even me - and even you!

For what it's worth, I think we all end up as worm food; me, you, Brady, the Pope, my mum. No Heaven, no Hell, no anything.

[TANGODANCER]

someone who I don't always agree with - but whose opinion I listen - to tells me I am bullying you - so i take that seriously and decide there is no harm apologising. I thought it was at least possible that's how it came across and that you were too polite to make such an accusation.either way - apologising can never be a bad thing...

The apology is unnecessary, although understood from what you thought. As for the bold bit, if you had seen some of my earlier exchanges with an odd member or two in the past,you might realise my reservation is totally on purpose. My temper can be a little er, "Irish at times"

Anyway, onwards..

[thebish]

What, even the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - he goes to Heaven too. Or Ian Brady? (welcome to Heaven son, there's some boys you can torture at the back of the Elysian fields over there). Flabbergastignation.

yeah - and even me - and even you!

For what it's worth, I think we all end up as worm food; me, you, Brady, the Pope, my mum. No Heaven, no Hell, no anything.

what - the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - and Ian Brady - get exactly the same treatment as our brave troops and all the lovely nice people??? Flabbergastignation!

[TANGODANCER]

I think there's something I need to clarify here. My comments about hell were based purely on the statement that Jesus descended there after dying on the cross. I can see no sense in it or reason either, nor any biblical proof. Why would he descend into the emporium of sin that he so decries in his teachings? As for hell itself, yes, I believe it exists. It has to, to maintain the yin-yang equilibrium of everything. What we do in life is mainly free choice and again, those Ten Commandments are all about "thou shalt and shalt not", and the Bible all about the fight between good and evil. Claiming otherwise destroys belief in such. A bit like somebody believing in ghosts and spirits but denying life after death.

How I see it.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

What, even the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - he goes to Heaven too. Or Ian Brady? (welcome to Heaven son, there's some boys you can torture at the back of the Elysian fields over there). Flabbergastignation.

yeah - and even me - and even you!

For what it's worth, I think we all end up as worm food; me, you, Brady, the Pope, my mum. No Heaven, no Hell, no anything.

what - the bugger that drove the airplane full of people into an inhabited skyscraper, him - and Ian Brady - get exactly the same treatment as our brave troops and all the lovely nice people??? Flabbergastignation!

Yup. I'd love Brady and the bugger that drove the airplane and all evil b'tards to serve penance in hell, but unfortunately I don't think it's the case.
Your views and my views are not miles apart. You think everybody ends up in the warm glowing embrace of a loving God. I think all creatures are equally ignored and discarded by a non-sentient all encompassing Universe.
I believe your view is driven by an existential fear of the blackness that is death, a wish-fulfillment. mine, tragic though it is for the individual and 'his' place in the world seems to me to be a more 'logical' perspective.

[PS - sorry to talk over you Mr TangoD]

[bobo the clown]

For what it's worth, I think we all end up as worm food; me, you, Brady, the Pope, my mum. No Heaven, no Hell, no anything.

Imagine !!

[thebish]

I think there's something I need to clarify here. My comments about hell were based purely on the statement that Jesus descended there after dying on the cross. I can see no sense in it or reason either, nor any biblical proof. Why would he descend into the emporium of sin that he so decries in his teachings? As for hell itself, yes, I believe it exists. It has to, to maintain the yin-yang equilibrium of everything. What we do in life is mainly free choice and again, those Ten Commandments are all about "thou shalt and shalt not", and the Bible all about the fight between good and evil. Claiming otherwise destroys belief in such. A bit like somebody believing in ghosts and spirits but denying life after death.

How I see it.

biblical texts - such as they (and those claimed to back this doctrine are quite slippery) do not describe Jesus descending into the Hell of modern popular conception - the one largely invented in the middle ages... the biblical idea back then was "merely" the realm of the dead (which has been sloppily translated as "Hell") - not an "emporium of sin" as you put it. The idea is that the dead too were waiting (hanging around in this shadowy place...) for this resurrection moment - and they too are now risen/set free - the realm of the dead is not beyond God's reach - Christ has conquered death itself - etc..

that's what it was actually about...

pretty much all talk of afterlife in the Bible is a positive minefield of interpretation - being as our entire world-view has changed since then - even leaving aside the problem of finding words to translate concepts and ideas that we can't even conceive nowadays...

I'd caution anyone against being too dogmatic about what happens beyond death, and instead - to focus on living this one...

as Christian Aid say in their slogan - we believe in life before death...

[thebish]

I believe your view is driven by an existential fear of the blackness that is death, a wish-fulfillment. mine, tragic though it is for the individual and 'his' place in the world seems to me to be a more 'logical' perspective.

you may - of course be right! But I am comfortable and happy with my delusion! You are welcome to your logical world (Mr Spock!)

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I believe your view is driven by an existential fear of the blackness that is death, a wish-fulfillment. mine, tragic though it is for the individual and 'his' place in the world seems to me to be a more 'logical' perspective.

you may - of course be right! But I am comfortable and happy with my delusion! You are welcome to your logical world (Mr Spock!)

That's very kind of you to say so, but you obviously don't think I'm right otherwise you wouldn't be a minister of the church. I too am comfortable and happy with your delusion, I'd much prefer ten of you to ten Brady's inhabiting the planet anyday.

[TANGODANCER]

I think there's something I need to clarify here. My comments about hell were based purely on the statement that Jesus descended there after dying on the cross. I can see no sense in it or reason either, nor any biblical proof. Why would he descend into the emporium of sin that he so decries in his teachings? As for hell itself, yes, I believe it exists. It has to, to maintain the yin-yang equilibrium of everything. What we do in life is mainly free choice and again, those Ten Commandments are all about "thou shalt and shalt not", and the Bible all about the fight between good and evil. Claiming otherwise destroys belief in such. A bit like somebody believing in ghosts and spirits but denying life after death.

How I see it.

biblical texts - such as they (and those claimed to back this doctrine are quite slippery) do not describe Jesus descending into the Hell of modern popular conception - the one largely invented in the middle ages... the biblical idea back then was "merely" the realm of the dead (which has been sloppily translated as "Hell") - not an "emporium of sin" as you put it. The idea is that the dead too were waiting (hanging around in this shadowy place...) for this resurrection moment - and they too are now risen/set free - the realm of the dead is not beyond God's reach - Christ has conquered death itself - etc..that's what it was actually about...

Against that there is Jesus fasting in the desert and being tempted by satan as just one example. "And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", another

pretty much all talk of afterlife in the Bible is a positive minefield of interpretation - being as our entire world-view has changed since then - even leaving aside the problem of finding words to translate concepts and ideas that we can't even conceive nowadays...
I'd caution anyone against being too dogmatic about what happens beyond death, and instead - to focus on living this one.

..as Christian Aid say in their slogan - we believe in life before death...

Unfortunately, unless followed up, all too easily translated as "Live fast, die young, by some elements of society.

[William the White]

I think there's something I need to clarify here. My comments about hell were based purely on the statement that Jesus descended there after dying on the cross. I can see no sense in it or reason either, nor any biblical proof. Why would he descend into the emporium of sin that he so decries in his teachings? As for hell itself, yes, I believe it exists. It has to, to maintain the yin-yang equilibrium of everything. What we do in life is mainly free choice and again, those Ten Commandments are all about "thou shalt and shalt not", and the Bible all about the fight between good and evil. Claiming otherwise destroys belief in such. A bit like somebody believing in ghosts and spirits but denying life after death.

How I see it.

biblical texts - such as they (and those claimed to back this doctrine are quite slippery) do not describe Jesus descending into the Hell of modern popular conception - the one largely invented in the middle ages... the biblical idea back then was "merely" the realm of the dead (which has been sloppily translated as "Hell") - not an "emporium of sin" as you put it. The idea is that the dead too were waiting (hanging around in this shadowy place...) for this resurrection moment - and they too are now risen/set free - the realm of the dead is not beyond God's reach - Christ has conquered death itself - etc..

that's what it was actually about...

pretty much all talk of afterlife in the Bible is a positive minefield of interpretation - being as our entire world-view has changed since then - even leaving aside the problem of finding words to translate concepts and ideas that we can't even conceive nowadays...

I'd caution anyone against being too dogmatic about what happens beyond death, and instead - to focus on living this one...

as Christian Aid say in their slogan - we believe in life before death...

I know what The Land of the Dead sounds like. I helped create it with a sound engineer and radio producer for Radio 3, in a play called Listening for the Singing. There's a cold and insistent wind blowing, and, whenever a character speaks there is a 'reverse echo' which gives the listener first the echo then the voice. An eerie effect. Oh, yes, there's also a harmonica playing, faint in the background, the notes blown and distorted by the wind.

There are no fires nor tortures.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[TANGODANCER]

I know what The Land of the Dead sounds like. I helped create it with a sound engineer and radio producer for Radio 3, in a play called Listening for the Singing. There's a cold and insistent wind blowing, and, whenever a character speaks there is a 'reverse echo' which gives the listener first the echo then the voice. An eerie effect. Oh, yes, there's also a harmonica playing, faint in the background, the notes blown and distorted by the wind.

There are no fires nor tortures. Just thought you'd like to know.

Nah, Will, the background music is a country western fiddle played on the minor keys whilst a video of Bolton v Stoke at Wembley fills a massive screen. There's also an alternative version form Michael Flatley's Lord of the Dance. with all those ghostly howls going on

[William the White]

I know what The Land of the Dead sounds like. I helped create it with a sound engineer and radio producer for Radio 3, in a play called Listening for the Singing. There's a cold and insistent wind blowing, and, whenever a character speaks there is a 'reverse echo' which gives the listener first the echo then the voice. An eerie effect. Oh, yes, there's also a harmonica playing, faint in the background, the notes blown and distorted by the wind.

There are no fires nor tortures. Just thought you'd like to know.

Nah, Will, the background music is a country western fiddle played on the minor keys whilst a video of Bolton v Stoke at Wembley fills a massive screen. There's also an alternative version form Michael Flatley's Lord of the Dance. with all those ghostly howls going on

My dad's greatest fear was to wake up in McDonalds

[thebish]

Against that there is Jesus fasting in the desert and being tempted by satan as just one example. "And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", another

hmmm.. I will answer this if you want me too.. but the figure of "satan" in the New Testament is far from straightforward...

and - shuffling another quote that also mistranslates "place of the dead" as "hell" is hardly new data! it's merely the same mistranslation!

if you really want to do some proper serious study to get behind the language used in the New Testament about powers/dominions/satan/forces of the universe etc. etc. - then I'd recommend Walter Wink's trilogy of books that begins with "Naming the Powers"... he presents the most cogent and detailed survey of all the language and contemporary references that i have come across... it's quite hard to distill into a nutshell!