The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.newstatesman.com/alex-andreo ... end-reason" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lost Leopard Spot]

This "I am quite frightened. There have always been some unreasonable people in politics. However, the way in which the entire debate on xxxxx seems to be taking place entirely outside the realms of logic, seems unprecedented. The way in which evidence is openly sneered at, is nothing short of medieval. The End of Reason." could be transplanted seemlessly over into the Global Thread... *snigger*

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I share his concern about the standard of our public debate at the moment. Next you thing you know we'll have just have people exchanging links, graphics and memes without ever passing their own comment.

It is a bit rich for him to write:

Reason, logic, truth are - and have always been - the precision instruments for dissecting hysterical phobias

...only to write himself, a few lines later:

So, what are we getting for sentencing two million innocent children to hunger?

...as if that is in any way an indication of what is at stake in the benefit cap debate.

I did find this bit interesting:

Quite contrary to the rhetoric of "making work pay" this measure does absolutely nothing to improve what work pays. As a matter of fact, making the 9 unemployed people chasing every 1 vacancy that much more desperate, is likely to have a deflationary effect on your wages.

Actually, my view is that that is exactly what should happen at a time of surplus supply in the labour market and is healthier than maintaining the pay levels of those in work, whist leaving so many without work at all, with all the debilitating effects that has.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think the big problem is that rather than come out and say "look we need to make savings, we're in a mess, thanks bankers, and we have no choice at this moment in time but to look at every option and one of those is cutting the welfare bill, by reducing benefits and rises in those benefits", the Tory government have to try and stir up division in society Daily Mailesque stereotype styleee.

Its just not needed. But this government have form for it. Trying to blame the public sector for the global financial crisis, playing on private sector stereotyping of the public sector and its workers.

Ultimately none of that was required. Rather than being honest, or a near approximation they are having to use a rather distasteful tabloid approach to pushing unpopular policies on the general public.

Its actually in style not too disimilar to a lot of the Nazi propaganda during the 1930's. Say things enough times and with enough conviction and appeal to a certain section of society with the message and soon it will be widely accepted. (Mummy is going to and ridicule this, but I firmly believe its a very similar mechanism).

The reality of it all, is that they are not prepared to stand up and fix the corporate, capitalist greed centre this country has become since the 1980's that has left the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, or to sort out the complete mess they are making of the NHS and public services or to tackle the bankers (who they're all in bed with) or the press or the decline of manufacturing in the North leaving swathes of the low skilled population unable to find any employment, or to tackle the offshore tax havens exclusively held by the rich (again not in their interests) and because of all that they simply want to find scapegoats to try and pin the current predicament on.

Its very very distasteful.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Its actually in style not too disimilar to a lot of the Nazi propaganda during the 1930's. Say things enough times and with enough conviction and appeal to a certain section of society with the message and soon it will be widely accepted. (Mummy is going to and ridicule this, but I firmly believe its a very similar mechanism).

Come on, even you are ashamed of making this point really, aren't you?

[BWFC_Insane]

Its actually in style not too disimilar to a lot of the Nazi propaganda during the 1930's. Say things enough times and with enough conviction and appeal to a certain section of society with the message and soon it will be widely accepted. (Mummy is going to and ridicule this, but I firmly believe its a very similar mechanism).

Come on, even you are ashamed of making this point really, aren't you?

The messages aren't the same. But the divide and rule mechanics are not dissimilar.

[William the White]

I did find this bit interesting:

Quite contrary to the rhetoric of "making work pay" this measure does absolutely nothing to improve what work pays. As a matter of fact, making the 9 unemployed people chasing every 1 vacancy that much more desperate, is likely to have a deflationary effect on your wages.

Actually, my view is that that is exactly what should happen at a time of surplus supply in the labour market and is healthier than maintaining the pay levels of those in work, whist leaving so many without work at all, with all the debilitating effects that has.

Nice... Tory tells the truth of what he believes and advocates... A rapid increase in poverty wages.

I wish the leaders of his party would be so forthright then we could have an honest debate.

As it is, the insane one is correct that they are engaged in black propaganda in the service of a divide and rule strategy... The insane one is wrong that this is the equivalent of Nazi propaganda, and it's bad taste in the extreme to make that claim...

[Montreal Wanderer]

I did find this bit interesting:

Quite contrary to the rhetoric of "making work pay" this measure does absolutely nothing to improve what work pays. As a matter of fact, making the 9 unemployed people chasing every 1 vacancy that much more desperate, is likely to have a deflationary effect on your wages.

Actually, my view is that that is exactly what should happen at a time of surplus supply in the labour market and is healthier than maintaining the pay levels of those in work, whist leaving so many without work at all, with all the debilitating effects that has.

Nice... Tory tells the truth of what he believes and advocates... A rapid increase in poverty wages.

I wish the leaders of his party would be so forthright then we could have an honest debate.

As it is, the insane one is correct that they are engaged in black propaganda in the service of a divide and rule strategy... The insane one is wrong that this is the equivalent of Nazi propaganda, and it's bad taste in the extreme to make that claim...

Very true, and over here it would now be considered libelous. Comparing anyone to Nazis is the last refuge of those who have no further good arguments.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Comparing anyone to Nazis is the last refuge of those who have no further good arguments.

Pol Pot was like a Nazi...

[superjohnmcginlay]

http://www.newstatesman.com/alex-andreo ... end-reason

New Statesman? Where's Alan B'stard?

[Montreal Wanderer]

Comparing anyone to Nazis is the last refuge of those who have no further good arguments.

Pol Pot was like a Nazi...

Well, I suspect that proves my point.

[Lord Kangana]

So we should try and ape the American system then, no? In what way would we achieve that by not being part of a larger trading zone and larger currency?

In a roundabout fashion, you have hit upon one of the founding French resentments that inspired the single currency: the power that comes with the confidence in the dollar.

It was misguided then and it is misguided now - the nation states of Europe and the states of America are not comparable.

We should ape the American system? When, starting now? If we had agreed years ago that national governments would give up their power to a central body issuing Euro bonds, which would then allocate the funds raised, along with a permanent, structural mechanism to transfer capital to the poorer countries, in return for the role they played in weakening the currency used by the richer countries, then yeah, there might one day have been something in place that attracted the sort of confidence that the dollar does. But it's never been on the table, for all sorts of complex reasons, and it's certainly not something we can consider right now, in the real world that isn't an idealist's fantasy.

I notice that the American's are now wading in..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ng-EU.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I also took note of Andrew Neil's questions this lunchtime to a panel discussing the issue and the UK's involvement in Europe. He made the point that I've been making for years, that its fantasy to think that we could keep all the benefits that come with being a member whilst simultaneously shedding all the responsibilities that come with the advantages of being part of such a large, protected, trading bloc. No-one could answer him.

As I say, we can dance around the head of a pin over subjects like benefit capping, but the serious issue of our age is our relationship with Europe. With the growth of the BRIC countries, it seems inconceivable that we would cast ourselves apart from our biggest trading area and markets at such a critical moment.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I did find this bit interesting:

Quite contrary to the rhetoric of "making work pay" this measure does absolutely nothing to improve what work pays. As a matter of fact, making the 9 unemployed people chasing every 1 vacancy that much more desperate, is likely to have a deflationary effect on your wages.

Actually, my view is that that is exactly what should happen at a time of surplus supply in the labour market and is healthier than maintaining the pay levels of those in work, whist leaving so many without work at all, with all the debilitating effects that has.

Nice... Tory tells the truth of what he believes and advocates... A rapid increase in poverty wages.

I wish the leaders of his party would be so forthright then we could have an honest debate.

I don't want to make anybody desperate, or anybody impoverished.

As I have said, I don't fully understand why mass lay offs in banking or in any other industry don't have more of a deflationary effect on wages.

The last thing we need is a situation in which we have cosseted insiders who are well paid, but large numbers who are out of work. That's essentially the situation that has prevailed in Greece.

My humble opinion is that we'd be better off collectively if we had lower wages and less unemployment.

This would also make us more competitive against the countries who are beating us to contracts and exports, and more attractive as a destination for job-creating investment.

Is this honestly the stuff of nasty Tories?

(Athers, help me out, mate.)

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

As I say, we can dance around the head of a pin over subjects like benefit capping, but the serious issue of our age is our relationship with Europe. With the growth of the BRIC countries, it seems inconceivable that we would cast ourselves apart from our biggest trading area and markets at such a critical moment.

Who has advocated casting ourselves apart from this trading area and these markets?

[Lord Kangana]

If you quoted the first paragraph aswell, it would be self explanatory. Listening to Europhobe arguments is like listening to a spoilt brat. They want everything, but will pay for nothing. Interestingly, these tend to be the same people in a tizz about benefit scroungers. Its a funny old mixed up world.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

If you quoted the first paragraph aswell, it would be self explanatory. Listening to Europhobe arguments is like listening to a spoilt brat. They want everything, but will pay for nothing. Interestingly, these tend to be the same people in a tizz about benefit scroungers. Its a funny old mixed up world.

It's not an incoherent position to say you would prefer the same relationship with Europe that Norway has, or that Switzerland has, is it?

[Lord Kangana]

Yes. Yes it is. We are neither of those countries.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Yes. Yes it is. We are neither of those countries.

What are the key differences that you think make that impossible?

[Lord Kangana]

For a kick off, Norway retained control over its own destiny whatever laws the EU come up with, because they retained control of their (vast) natural rescources. This leaves them perfectly, financially, independent of the EU. To put this in to context, Norwegians enjoy an average of close to double our national average income.They have no say over EU policy, but they don't need it. They could probably go it alone. Meanwhile, we're an economy with no such luxuries, that is predicated on free trade. We need, and I stress the word as need, not desire, to retain control over policy that governs that trading relationship. We could not do that as simply part of the EEA.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

For a kick off, Norway retained control over its own destiny whatever laws the EU come up with, because they retained control of their (vast) natural rescources. This leaves them perfectly, financially, independent of the EU. To put this in to context, Norwegians enjoy an average of close to double our national average income.They have no say over EU policy, but they don't need it. They could probably go it alone. Meanwhile, we're an economy with no such luxuries, that is predicated on free trade. We need, and I stress the word as need, not desire, to retain control over policy that governs that trading relationship. We could not do that as simply part of the EEA.

What control do we have now?

Are you saying the Norwegians do have a good deal now, but could afford to lose it and can take that risk, or that they don't have a good deal at all?

And Switzerland?