bloody norah... :-(

[Montreal Wanderer]

And also next time I'm pleading for my life on a train in Uttar Pradesh when Muslim gunmen get on and start shooting westerners, I'll remember that it's nothing to do with religion. I'll point this out shall I as they prepare to shoot proclaiming all the time that, actually, it is all about religion... Yea, I'll try that next time.

I think here we may be confusing what the various religions tell us to do and what is done by some people in the name of various religions. These are not the same thing. This world is largely about power and control and both government (democratic or not) and religion are used by a few to control the many. Power, whether political or religious, can be used benignly, but often not especially if those in power need a cause to deflect the discontent of the people. Nor is it just leaders at the national level who (mis)use power this way. Even the evil imam in, say, Birmingham uses religion to exercise control over his small band of discontented zealots. This does not make all Moslems evil to my mind any more than all American Republicans, Irish or Spaniards are.

[thebish]

though it is possible you will dismiss my comments again as "just defending the religious because you also believe in that shit", I think you have fallen (I hope not deliberately) into the trap of translating "Jihad" as "Holy War"... I suspect you know this (you sometimes come across as fairly intelligent) but are not in a mood to consider a position fairly...

I'm perfectly aware of what jihad is: the struggle against unbelievers, or the internal struggle against unbelief.
And no I don't need quotes from the Koran thrown at me. Here's a consideration before you do: the Hadith, which is as canonical as the Koran, has as much as you can swallow on what to do and how to do it against the Unbeliever.
You are a believer, I am an Unbeliever. You, personally might not be threatening me with a nasty death, but Islam is. Or are you saying I'm wrong, as you too seem on the face of it to be quite intelligent.

whatever your reading of the Hadith is - and well done for having read it - I don't think Muslims are out to get you* - no. so - in that sense, I am very happy to report that you are wrong in that sense (which should be good news for you!)

*smallprint - or at least - no more so than anyone else - be they christian, buddhist, atheist, humanist, secularist, communist, anarchist, hindu, scouser, scottish, welsh, bisexual, ethiopian, hermaphrodite, white, black, green, purple, tory, labour, public school, vegetarian or fisherman.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

So, vice versa, when you look at the world wide slaughter and destruction carried out in the name of religion, why are we not rooting out that evil?

Same answer as always, because it isn't religion that's to blame is why; just those who use it for their own ends and say they're doing it in some version of God's name. Not like it's a new thing really is it? Totally about territory. It's a collective battle banner to assemble under, cross, crescent or whatever symbol associates with religions. What's the real difference between Catholic and Church of England religions? Is it enough to have two factions of a country at each others' throats? The Irish thinks so, although they know damn well it's about territory and nothing to do with religion..as it ever was..

You've raised an extremely valid point here, though I suspect you don't realise it. You see as a religion Islam carries a couple of tenets that make it slightly different other religions. These are Jihad and Umma. The umma is not only the community of Islam, it is also the territory controlled by Islam. Jihad is not just holy war it is the religious duty of all Muslims to expand the umma through holy war.
The main problem with Muslims (from my perspective) is that they want where I live to be part of the umma, because ultimately they desire the conversion of all the world into the umma.
If you look at a map of the world and colour in all the Muslim countries and then plot all the wars in the last decade or two you'll see a startling correlation. On the centre you will see conflicts between Shiites and Sunni over control of the umma, but around the fringes, all the fringes, you'll see where Muslims are trying to expand the umma: Nigeria, Mali, Dagestan, Bosnia, Chechnya, India, China, Philippines, Somalia, Eritrea, the list goes on. So no, not quite the same as Protestant v Catholic though that is obnoxious enough.

Nobody disputing this then? Rabid Muslims waging war everywhere, apart from in your neighbour obviously. Canada's fairly safe for a few decades maybe.
Grow up.

[Montreal Wanderer]

So, vice versa, when you look at the world wide slaughter and destruction carried out in the name of religion, why are we not rooting out that evil?

Same answer as always, because it isn't religion that's to blame is why; just those who use it for their own ends and say they're doing it in some version of God's name. Not like it's a new thing really is it? Totally about territory. It's a collective battle banner to assemble under, cross, crescent or whatever symbol associates with religions. What's the real difference between Catholic and Church of England religions? Is it enough to have two factions of a country at each others' throats? The Irish thinks so, although they know damn well it's about territory and nothing to do with religion..as it ever was..

You've raised an extremely valid point here, though I suspect you don't realise it. You see as a religion Islam carries a couple of tenets that make it slightly different other religions. These are Jihad and Umma. The umma is not only the community of Islam, it is also the territory controlled by Islam. Jihad is not just holy war it is the religious duty of all Muslims to expand the umma through holy war.
The main problem with Muslims (from my perspective) is that they want where I live to be part of the umma, because ultimately they desire the conversion of all the world into the umma.
If you look at a map of the world and colour in all the Muslim countries and then plot all the wars in the last decade or two you'll see a startling correlation. On the centre you will see conflicts between Shiites and Sunni over control of the umma, but around the fringes, all the fringes, you'll see where Muslims are trying to expand the umma: Nigeria, Mali, Dagestan, Bosnia, Chechnya, India, China, Philippines, Somalia, Eritrea, the list goes on. So no, not quite the same as Protestant v Catholic though that is obnoxious enough.

Nobody disputing this then? Rabid Muslims waging war everywhere, apart from in your neighbour obviously. Canada's fairly safe for a few decades maybe.
Grow up.

I didn't dispute it - I asked some questions but you have not answered. However, the discussion appears to have degenerated into petty and pointless insults so I think I've had enough of it.

[Beefheart]

Does anyone know if today is a muslim holiday? I noticed a LOT of cars parked around the mosque near my house. Which seemed odd given it wasn't a Friday. So was wondering if there was some special reason why they were there today, or whether it was in response to what happened or maybe just coincidence?

[seanworth]

My feeling on the Filipino Muslim problem, based entirely on the Muslims I have met and time spent in that country, is that the problem is a political problem and not a religious problem although both sides like to cloak the conflict in religion. The Philippines is hardly a bastion of democracy, and I would go out on a limb and say neither is the vast majority of the Muslim world so protection of the individual is often forgotten. It all comes down to power and influence.

[Burnden Paddock]

Does anyone know if today is a muslim holiday? I noticed a LOT of cars parked around the mosque near my house. Which seemed odd given it wasn't a Friday. So was wondering if there was some special reason why they were there today, or whether it was in response to what happened or maybe just coincidence?

In Bolton? It was the funeral today of the baby found dead in Lostock earlier this year. Maybe something to do with that.

[TANGODANCER]

Does anyone know if today is a muslim holiday? I noticed a LOT of cars parked around the mosque near my house. Which seemed odd given it wasn't a Friday. So was wondering if there was some special reason why they were there today, or whether it was in response to what happened or maybe just coincidence?

In Bolton? It was the funeral today of the baby found dead in Lostock earlier this year. Maybe something to do with that.

I thought that was yesterday. Might be wrong but wasn't it on the news last night? Was also something on TV tonight about graffiti being sprayed on a Bolton mosque.

[Burnden Paddock]

Does anyone know if today is a muslim holiday? I noticed a LOT of cars parked around the mosque near my house. Which seemed odd given it wasn't a Friday. So was wondering if there was some special reason why they were there today, or whether it was in response to what happened or maybe just coincidence?

In Bolton? It was the funeral today of the baby found dead in Lostock earlier this year. Maybe something to do with that.

I thought that was yesterday. Might be wrong but wasn't it on the news last night? Was also something on TV tonight about graffiti being sprayed on a Bolton mosque.

Dunno. Saw something on the BN site earlier. Must have been a day old article and I didn't realise. I did see something on the national news about the graffiti, perhaps it was due to that.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Does anyone know if today is a muslim holiday? I noticed a LOT of cars parked around the mosque near my house. Which seemed odd given it wasn't a Friday. So was wondering if there was some special reason why they were there today, or whether it was in response to what happened or maybe just coincidence?

In Bolton? It was the funeral today of the baby found dead in Lostock earlier this year. Maybe something to do with that.

I thought that was yesterday. Might be wrong but wasn't it on the news last night? Was also something on TV tonight about graffiti being sprayed on a Bolton mosque.

Dunno. Saw something on the BN site earlier. Must have been a day old article and I didn't realise. I did see something on the national news about the graffiti, perhaps it was due to that.

See http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/47061 ... murder.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thebish]

Apparently this was twittered last night...

Perhaps we should all wait outside a mosque tooled up and hack up the first guy who comes out in a turban. #wankers

[as]

Some kids write on a mosque wall - big whoop.

If a couple of white lads ran over a muslim before hacking him to death - most people would be out with pitchforks.

You mention the religious element in this and the bed-wetters kick up a stink.

Just feck off.

Voice an opinion and you're labelled a racist

Again - just feck off.

I'm off before MI5 come knocking for me not agreeing with the general consensus

[thebish]

Some kids write on a mosque wall - big whoop.

If a couple of white lads ran over a muslim before hacking him to death - most people would be out with pitchforks.

You mention the religious element in this and the bed-wetters kick up a stink.

Just feck off.

Voice an opinion and you're labelled a racist

Again - just feck off.

I'm off before MI5 come knocking for me not agreeing with the general consensus

oh - quite the opposite - you're pretty much bang on the general consensus if it makes you feel better!

as for you if... muslim.. scenario... at the beginning of this month a defenseless elderly muslim man was brutally stabbed to death on the public street in Birmingham by a white guy...

no pitch forks... no fb outrage... no twitter frenzy... it seems you are wrong...

[as]

I'll raise you a Kriss Donald.

Tortured and unreported - better to not upset the minorities and the 'I'm so left' brigade.

[thebish]

I'll raise you a Kriss Donald.

Tortured and unreported - better to not upset the minorities and the 'I'm so left' brigade.

what? you see this as some kind of one-upmanship competition??? really?

[Worthy4England]

Some kids write on a mosque wall - big whoop.

If a couple of white lads ran over a muslim before hacking him to death - most people would be out with pitchforks.

You mention the religious element in this and the bed-wetters kick up a stink.

Just feck off.

Voice an opinion and you're labelled a racist

Again - just feck off.

I'm off before MI5 come knocking for me not agreeing with the general consensus

oh - quite the opposite - you're pretty much bang on the general consensus if it makes you feel better!

as for you if... muslim.. scenario... at the beginning of this month a defenseless elderly muslim man was brutally stabbed to death on the public street in Birmingham by a white guy...

no pitch forks... no fb outrage... no twitter frenzy... it seems you are wrong...

And it's the same because the perpetrators said something like "For England and St. George"?

Was it racially or religiously motivated? As far as I know, no one has the foggiest clue yet.

I'm sure plenty of people of different ethnicity down the years have killed, without it necessarily being racially or religiously motivated.

[as]

You were the one posting shit like this -

Perhaps we should all wait outside a mosque tooled up and hack up the first guy who comes out in a turban. #wankers

I'm sure dumb muslims were posting similar bile, but no, a white fella dies in a racist attack and that's what whoppers like you concentrate on

[Prufrock]

Some kids write on a mosque wall - big whoop.

If a couple of white lads ran over a muslim before hacking him to death - most people would be out with pitchforks.

You mention the religious element in this and the bed-wetters kick up a stink.

Just feck off.

Voice an opinion and you're labelled a racist

Again - just feck off.

I'm off before MI5 come knocking for me not agreeing with the general consensus

Have you seen the news?! Folk are out, not with actual pitchforks, but with EDL banners, which is the 21st century equivalent.


I think the complete denial of any religious element is intellectually lazy. What people want to say is 'this doesn't mean all Muslims want to hack people to death', and what comes out is, 'it's nothing to do with religion'.

We (or I anyway) don't know enough about this particular attack but there is a common theme of 'young troubled man indoctrinated into violence through radicalised teachings of Islam'. I think it's pointless to deny that. It's also, beyond that, a point without much implication. Only a cretin, a feline, or somebody with no actual contact with Muslims would suggest that it casts any light over normal Muslims. They're no more implicated in this than your Auntie Doris' Thursday Morning Bible-Reading and Gossip Class are with the f*ckwits at the Westboro Baptist Church. Religion is often used as a motivation, or at least a justification for really bad things. That other things are also used in this way, at all, equally, or more, doesn't alter that as a stand-alone point.

I'm normally loathe to even read what other people put on Facebook, never mind quote it, but I was quite cheered by two things that I saw, both from guys I used to work with at JD Sports. These guys are in no way Guardianista socialites. One is a Muslim, who had started a group called something like 'Muslims against Terrorism' which had had loads of 'likes' (*vomit*) and loads of comments from normal Muslims saying how awful it was. The other guy is in the army, and was a big long post which started with how sick it was, and then went onto to say that Muslim bashing wasn't the answer, that there are plenty British-Muslims in the army who get on with everyone normally, and that those s*ck bastards shouldn't be allowed to have good people at each others' throats. Reading those two made me think that we might not all be f*cked after all.

PS. Why did the police need to shoot them, hey? With real bullets? They could have died!

[Prufrock]

Also, the idea that it's only Muslims doing bad things is ridiculous. There's a shit-load of them getting killed in Burma...by f*cking Buddhists. BUDDHISTS!

Also, given we're at that point by now, it seems tediously necessary to point out that saying 'Muslims' aren't the only people who do bad things isn't the same as saying 'Muslims' are the only people who have bad things done to them. Nor is it making a qualitative comparison between any bad things.

[Prufrock]

am reading today a report* about terrorism trends over the last 10 yrs...

interestingly... in 2011 it is reckoned that Al Quaida-inspired terrorism accounted for 700 attacks and resulted in 2000 deaths... next down the list - Secular, political, and anarchist groups were the next largest category of perpetrators, conducting 2,283 attacks with 1,926 fatalities....

so - secular, political and anarchist terrorists conduct MORE terrorist attacks than Al Quaida - but with less death-impact per attack...

I didn't know this... it doesn't add anything much to the incident yesterday (or on Monday) - but I thought it was interesting in that it doesn't appear to be the popular conception that there even IS any terrorism outside of some kind of religious sphere...


* - the US Dept of State National Counterterrorism Center: Annex of Statistical Information

I'm not sure that is really the popular conception. I don't think anyone really even talks about the IRA shit as being 'religiously motivated'. Doesn't alter that some of it almost certainly is. Even if you don't buy the motivation (I do, I think you need a really powerful tool to get someone to do that, and 'God' is certainly that), it's at least couched in religious terms.

People do bad terroristy things for reasons other than religion, I *reckon* probably mostly political but, unless it's massively wide-spread and slipped under my radar, I'm yet to hear of anybody non-religious killing anybody else because of their religion.