The Politics Thread

[Prufrock]

We live in a country where over 2000 bankers earnt over 1m euros last year (out of fewer than 4000 in all of Europe) but where the people who get blamed for everything are the ones struggling near or below the breadline who get lumped in with the lazy shisters.

When intelligent people spew stuff like this, it doesn't help incidentally.

The first thing that first line makes me think is "is our financial services sector roughly the same size as financial services in the rest of Europe combined?".

And who is really 'blaming' the struggling for anything?

I'll take the compliment

It worked out at 77% of those in Europe earning over a million euros (2,700ish out of 3,500ish). Our banking sector is big, but it isn't that big. They get paid shit loads.

Not only that, the size of our banking industry is another issue in itself. The reason we account for so many apparently is that our investment banking sector is ginormous. Whilst I'm all for a vibrant city, do we want to be so reliant on a sector which, to be kind, involves an amount of gambling? Do we want to focus what our economy values so that everyone under 30 moves to London or at least the nearest regional city and feck everyone else who can do short term work in retail for the rest of their lives.

As for your second point, we're constantly told by the Daily Tabloids that what the economy needs is to cut benefits and then it will all be all right. I think 'blame the work-shy benefits scroungers with their Sky TV and houses they couldn't afford' for the banking crisis is precisely the tone of that debate.

Then as LK mentions we get Boris intimating that we should all be grateful to the mega-rich. His point was that they are are hard done to because they pay so much tax. Not that they are lucky to be earning so much more than everybody else that they end up paying so much tax.

The problem with prizing ambition and personal gain too highly (not with prizing them at all) is that if everyone thinks they deserve every penny they earn, then they also feel free to blame those who don't earn much, because its their own fault.

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work. I'm not suggesting we start deciding salaries based on who does the most manual work, or who is most tired, but it pisses me off when people with good jobs don't appreciate that the main reason they get paid loads is because the economy values the skills they have, not because they are some Stakhanovite genius surrounding by workshy losers. That doesn't mean people in well-paid jobs don't work hard too, but just the reason they get paid more isn't because they work harder. That whole attitude pervades throughout society. Making more money is the ultimate goal. People who are poor deserve to be, people who are rich deserve to be. A government's first priority is simply to make the economy stronger, rather than make society stronger (a large part of which will involve looking after the economy). We even hear talk about hospitals not being profitable. Hospitals aren't supposed to be profitable. There is a real debate to be had about what health car ewe can and can't afford, but that debate shouldn't be rooted in whether hospitals can make money!

Rant over. For now!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

It worked out at 77% of those in Europe earning over a million euros (2,700ish out of 3,500ish). Our banking sector is big, but it isn't that big. They get paid shit loads.

What are the figures then? How big is our banking sector compared to the rest of Europe? What percentage by value of all the different kinds of banking work went through London last year?

It's all very well for to then say 'and that's another issue - we're too reliant on banking'... if this is the problem you want to highlight, why don't you say so and do it with more precision?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

As for your second point, we're constantly told by the Daily Tabloids that what the economy needs is to cut benefits and then it will all be all right. I think 'blame the work-shy benefits scroungers with their Sky TV and houses they couldn't afford' for the banking crisis is precisely the tone of that debate.

Even as a caricature, are there really tabloids saying that? Serious question now - do you read tabloids?

I think 'benefit scroungers' an easy target to be first hit in bad times, but I don't think they are widely described as having played a big role in causing the financial crisis- i.e. blamed.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

[Prufrock]

It worked out at 77% of those in Europe earning over a million euros (2,700ish out of 3,500ish). Our banking sector is big, but it isn't that big. They get paid shit loads.

What are the figures then? How big is our banking sector compared to the rest of Europe? What percentage by value of all the different kinds of banking work went through London last year?

It's all very well for to then say 'and that's another issue - we're too reliant on banking'... if this is the problem you want to highlight, why don't you say so and do it with more precision?

I don't think its outrageous to say: either, and this seems more likely, but I don't know, our banking system doesn't account for 77% of all of Europe's and so why are we paying them so much; or, what the feck, why on earth is our financial sector so large that accounts for 77% of all of bloody Europe's?

[thebish]

I think you should challenge him to a duel, Pru!

[Prufrock]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

And it taught me the same. The reason you and I aren't there anymore is because we have skills the economy values. We are lucky to have those skills. That's my point. I think a lot of people think that, because they do work hard, that's why they do well and not because they are lucky. People are then ok with other people struggling because it must be because they don't work hard. I don't think it's conscious, and I think its understandable, but I think its bad for society and its a symptom of valuing money and ambition over all else.

[Prufrock]

I think you should challenge him to a duel, Pru!

I would, but I need to get back to work!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

It worked out at 77% of those in Europe earning over a million euros (2,700ish out of 3,500ish). Our banking sector is big, but it isn't that big. They get paid shit loads.

What are the figures then? How big is our banking sector compared to the rest of Europe? What percentage by value of all the different kinds of banking work went through London last year?

It's all very well for to then say 'and that's another issue - we're too reliant on banking'... if this is the problem you want to highlight, why don't you say so and do it with more precision?

I don't think its outrageous to say: either, and this seems more likely, but I don't know, our banking system doesn't account for 77% of all of Europe's and so why are we paying them so much; or, what the feck, why on earth is our financial sector so large that accounts for 77% of all of bloody Europe's?

Aren't you at least interested in finding out the answer - are you not frustrated that you can't properly evaluate the numbers you're looking at without this knowledge.

I wouldn't be surprised if by several measures, or in a few areas of banking, we do do more banking business than the rest of Europe combined and there are lots of reasons for this - such as the historic and language-based reasons we do so much more financial business with America and Asia than other European countries do.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

And it taught me the same. The reason you and I aren't there anymore is because we have skills the economy values. We are lucky to have those skills. That's my point. I think a lot of people think that, because they do work hard, that's why they do well and not because they are lucky. People are then ok with other people struggling because it must be because they don't work hard. I don't think it's conscious, and I think its understandable, but I think its bad for society and its a symptom of valuing money and ambition over all else.

We're lucky to have had the opportunities we have had to be able to choose to acquire those skills. But then that's what the focus should be - giving everyone those opportunities to the fullest extent possible - rather than messing with the fundamental thing that drives us on.

[thebish]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

I think Pru is trying to say that not everyone CAN take those steps - their situation does not allow it... you, young man, are privileged in so many ways... blessed, even..

(a paraphrase - but, what I think Pru is trying to say!)

out of interest - what factory did you work in? and for how long?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

I think Pru is trying to say that not everyone CAN take those steps - their situation does not allow it... you, young man, are privileged in so many ways... blessed, even..

(a paraphrase - but, what I think Pru is trying to say!)

out of interest - what factory did you work in? and for how long?

Yes, as I have said above - the focus should be on helping people to be able take those steps.

Erm, off the top of my head I worked in a Gibson's sandwich factory in Ellesmere Port one summer and then in a packaging factory in Deeside another summer. I really couldn't tell you how long it was in both cases, but it was long enough!

[thebish]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

I think Pru is trying to say that not everyone CAN take those steps - their situation does not allow it... you, young man, are privileged in so many ways... blessed, even..

(a paraphrase - but, what I think Pru is trying to say!)

out of interest - what factory did you work in? and for how long?

Yes, as I have said above - the focus should be on helping people to be able take those steps.

Erm, off the top of my head I worked in a Gibson's sandwich factory in Ellesmere Port one summer and then in a packaging factory in Deeside another summer. I really couldn't tell you how long it was in both cases, but it was long enough!

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

[superjohnmcginlay]

I worked for a year in a factory. I now work in an office. I get more than twice the money now as I did then. I can also tell you which is harder work.

And please - this is just embarrassing.

I did exactly this too and what it taught me was that I really wanted to take the steps that meant I never did those kind of jobs again.

I think Pru is trying to say that not everyone CAN take those steps - their situation does not allow it... you, young man, are privileged in so many ways... blessed, even..

(a paraphrase - but, what I think Pru is trying to say!)

out of interest - what factory did you work in? and for how long?

Yes, as I have said above - the focus should be on helping people to be able take those steps.

Erm, off the top of my head I worked in a Gibson's sandwich factory in Ellesmere Port one summer and then in a packaging factory in Deeside another summer. I really couldn't tell you how long it was in both cases, but it was long enough!

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

Them shit load of Romanians that are gonna turn up on Jan 1?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

I'm not sure why I am being asked for a manifesto here - I am not the one in the habit of decorating my rants with irrelevant tinsel about having worked in a factory.

1. I would like anyone to have access to education if they want it.

2. I want sandwich-making to be done by people who are happy making sandwiches, or by those who are using it as filler while they work towards something better (see point 1).

[Athers]

SANDWICH FILLER WHEYY

[thebish]

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

I'm not sure why I am being asked for a manifesto here

well - for one thing, you were urging Pru to give proper detail!!! sauce for the fecking goose!!!

also - who hasn't got access to education? what on earth do you mean? sounds like woolly vagueness to me...

(are you suggesting that people in highly paid jobs are all there because they are well educated?)

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

I'm not sure why I am being asked for a manifesto here

well - for one thing, you were urging Pru to give proper detail!!! sauce for the fecking goose!!!

also - who hasn't got access to education? what on earth do you mean? sounds like woolly vagueness to me...

Relevant detail.

[thebish]

ahhh - you mean summer jobs...

what steps do you want to help people take - how would you do it? if you were successful - who would make your sandwiches?? and who would make your packaging?

I'm not sure why I am being asked for a manifesto here

well - for one thing, you were urging Pru to give proper detail!!! sauce for the fecking goose!!!

also - who hasn't got access to education? what on earth do you mean? sounds like woolly vagueness to me...

Relevant detail.

so - let's have some!

how do you make sure everyone has access to education - and who are you talking about?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

how do you make sure everyone has access to education

These are big important questions - perhaps for another day.

It's always good result when you've made your way to the starting line of the right questions.