The Politics Thread

[Puskas]

If it's going to run that close Mof, please could we understand what and what isn't to be counted in Florida? It seemed to cause no end of problems last time around....

what gets me is people vote without understanding the rules. the whole popular/electoral college votes thing did me head in with retards moaning "i didnt vote for this", 'well yeah, you did - look heres the rules, bet youve never seen these before even though theyre about 200 years old..'.

I thought that most of the "moaning" wasn't about winning/losing the popular vote - them's the rules, as you say - but about the incorrect exclusion of large chunks of the poor and black voters of Florida (mostly Democrats) after the responsibility for compiling electoral register had been privatised and handed to a friend of Jeb Bush.
Which, many people think, is a concern for democracy.

[Worthy4England]

If it's going to run that close Mof, please could we understand what and what isn't to be counted in Florida? It seemed to cause no end of problems last time around....

what gets me is people vote without understanding the rules. the whole popular/electoral college votes thing did me head in with retards moaning "i didnt vote for this", 'well yeah, you did - look heres the rules, bet youve never seen these before even though theyre about 200 years old..'.

So is that a failure of the people who the rules are imposed upon, or the democratically elected rule makers whose job it is to act transparantly and create a fair and understandable system.

I hear the banking industry using the same excuse "you wouldn't understand". Try us.

The issue of being able to understand the ballot paper was only one of the very many legal cases heard as part of the whole recount fiasco. Given that the US is the defender of the free and the bastion of elected governments, it was nothing short of farcical (without arguing from either a Democtratic or Republican standpoint particularly.)

[jmjhb]

It'll be a terrible indictment on American society if John McCain and Sarah Palin get in power. Thankfully, there's approximately only 6% chance of that happening now.

[a1]

So is that a failure of the people who the rules are imposed upon, or the democratically elected rule makers whose job it is to act transparantly and create a fair and understandable system.

I hear the banking industry using the same excuse "you wouldn't understand". Try us.

no , that system is as "fair" as any other (they all have their mathematical flaws, and inconsistancies , theyre all paradoxical in one way), in fact i think it changed to that system when someone worked out george washington won an election by too much or too little and it wasnt as 'fair'as it shouldve been.. a few years afterwards, though.

if youre gonna vote (or do almost anything for that matter) , the least they can do is read the rules.

its maths , theyre gonna have to use that for a vote.

[Prufrock]

hmmm. his basic point seems sensible enough, that people who were always going to vote Republican wont vote Obama, not because they are racist, but because they are republican. That doesnt mean they arent, or that all of them are, but he does seem to be suggesting that everyone is either a definate republican, or a definate democrat. there are always people in the middle who can be swayed.

He mentions 'independents'. I am staggered at the attention this innocuous snippet has attracted.

But are there not also voters who would at one moment in time describe themselves in a survey or a poll as 'republican' (or vice versa) who could be swayed?
There are people who were republican who might vote democrat this time.

Im not the biggest fan of Obama, i dont think he has many genuinly inovative ideas for this 'change' everyone is obsessed with; however, i would much rather him get in than McCain. And that is what i think most people feel like as well. It seems that the Democrats arent so much going to win this election, as the republicans, both over the course of this election campaign, and the last 8 years, will have lost it.

The Obama machine is formidable - well organised, well-funded and very very effective. When the Democrats win, it won't be by default or accident.

No problems with the statement that the Obama machine is massive, but you make out like the republicans are some tiny underdog. they too have a massive army of PR people and a media machine. Obama doesnt have any particularly strong policies, in fact i agree with the majority of the doubts you yourself have raised about him on here, however i think he is the lesser of two evils and that is why i think he will win. He strikes me as the TOny BLair of American politics. Not as leftie as his party normally is, no real policies, an obsession with the word change, and a campaign based on being a 'hey look at me, I'm just this guy'.That said, as weak as i personally think OBama is, id rather have him than an ill nutjob with a FECKING nutjob of a running mate.

Also, the bold bit is bollocks. If his point was the Bradley effect might not solely reflect racism, but also people's fear of appearing racist, then fair enough. he seems to be suggesting that a true racist wouldnt have the brains to lie, and that ALL the people who lied about their vote were in fact just scared of appearing racist. A theory he has NO evidence for apart from his biased logic.

I don't think he's suggesting anything to do with a lack of brains.

Perhaps not brains, but most of the people i know who i would consider racist arent stupid enough OR are dare i suggest too ashamed of the views they are happy to share amongst white peers, to share them in public. Also racists often have double standards hence the classic line 'im not a racist, i have black friends'. My nana is as racist as they come in private, yet she is really close to her Indian next door neighbour. Go figure. The assumption in the article seems to be that all racists wear their racism on their sleeves. To suggest that a racist would PROBABLY not lie about their opinion seems ludicrous. What proof does he have for that. Thats not to say that there werent people who only said they voted for Bradley through embarassment, but to suggest that they all were embarrased, non racist, just-happened-to-want-to-vote-for-the-white-guy people is completely baseless.

And the theory exists entirely independently of his 'biased logic'.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

You don't think Obama is a leftie?

And how have we let it become the conventional wisdom that McCain and Palin are 'nutjobs'? What marks them out as being so?

[Lord Kangana]

They're American, they're politicians, they're Republicans. Its enough circumstantial evidence to build a strong case

[Verbal]

You don't think Obama is a leftie?

Is anyone in mainstream American politics, bar Nader, a leftie?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

You don't think Obama is a leftie?

Is anyone in mainstream American politics, bar Nader, a leftie?

Yes - Obama is a Marxist.

[Lord Kangana]

Cooooool.

I like him even more now. He might even have a different agenda than the last 30-odd administrations.

[mofgimmers]

I'm hoping Obama gets in a does a black power salute a declares war on whitey!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm hoping Obama gets in a does a black power salute a declares war on whitey!

Certainly wouldn't put it past his wife.


Anyway, Mof, do you honestly think the man is 'cool'?

He reminds of a geeky undergraduate in much the same way as David Miliband did when I met him....

[Montreal Wanderer]

You don't think Obama is a leftie?

Is anyone in mainstream American politics, bar Nader, a leftie?

Yes - Obama is a Marxist.

Just because as a kid he knew Frank Marshall Davis (who died 20 years ago), PB? More guilt by association. He's a terrorist because he sat on a charity board with a professor who was once a Weatherman? He's a Muslim because of his middle name? He's a racist because his minister friend was? I thought you looked deeper than this.

[Lord Kangana]

I don't understand whats so wrong with being a Marxist?

It seems on the other side of the pond the word is used in the context of a rapist or a murderer. For the life of me I can't get my head round that. They have a warmongering, corrupt neo-fascist incumbent at the moment...in comparison a Marxist would be all flowers and chocolates.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

You don't think Obama is a leftie?

Is anyone in mainstream American politics, bar Nader, a leftie?

Yes - Obama is a Marxist.

Just because as a kid he knew Frank Marshall Davis (who died 20 years ago), PB? More guilt by association. He's a terrorist because he sat on a charity board with a professor who was once a Weatherman? He's a Muslim because of his middle name? He's a racist because his minister friend was? I thought you looked deeper than this.

I've never called him a terrorist, nor 'accused' him of being a muslim.

You want to look deeper? How about his strong ties with the New Party in the mid-90s? Or even just his public voting record and the passages in his books about 'economic justice' would be a start.

As for his minister 'friend'... this would be the 'friend' who married him and his wife, baptized his children, whom Obama describes in his book as his 'mentor' and 'spiritual guide'.

[blurred]

I remain unashamed to state my view that Obama is the affirmative action candidate and that a white man with the same resume would not have a prayer of becoming President.

I would imagine that Baldrick running under the Democrat card this time round would be a marginal favourite heading into November 4th, if only because of the record of the Republicans over the last 8 years, to be fair.

The analogy of the two ice-cream sellers on the beach springs to mind about the election, though, especially when I've seen the debates.

[Worthy4England]

In a slightly interesting diversion. He's bought Advertising space inside a racing game - Burnout Paradise...I'm sure lots of people will hit the off switch to head out and vote half-way through a record setting lap.

In game political advertising

[ratbert]

You want to look deeper? How about his strong ties with the New Party in the mid-90s? Or even just his public voting record and the passages in his books about 'economic justice' would be a start.

What's wrong with economic justice exactly? Helping those who can't help themselves?

There are people (not many, but some) on the right in favour of economic justice, so you wouldn't call them Marxist. You're using the term as far too broad a brush.

[Verbal]

You don't think Obama is a leftie?

Is anyone in mainstream American politics, bar Nader, a leftie?

Yes - Obama is a Marxist.

?

I haven't seen the bit where he calls for revolution yet.

Or says he wants an insular economy.

[Worthy4England]

This is all a bit pointless to be honest. It's like Sunday Paper journalism. Obama and McCain probably had an ideological start to their political lives - many who follow that path do, but strangely ideologies often held in the teens and twenties do tend to change over time into more rounded opinions. Obama maybe slightly left of centerist politics but the next Uncle Joe - I doubt it.

Similarly, one could look at McCain's history. Some would say he's a facist, plenty would point to his comments about hating "gooks" and still hating them (although he has better reason than most) pointing to him certainly posessing a streak of racism.

It would probably be a little easier instead of pointing to ideological conjecture from some time ago, if someone could highlight which of Obama's proposed "policies" are Marxist or which of McCain's are overtly Racist/Facist. Genreal mudslinging with no actual facts is unlikely to sway many I suspect [edit] outside of the US...