The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

OK, thanks for clearing that up, I should explain my position. My politics are right of centre, but come every election I weigh up what everyone has to say. Though I usually do end up voting Conservative that in no way means that I go charging down to the polling office, wearing a blue rosette, to cast my vote in their favour. In the last general election I decided on the morning of the election to vote Conservative over Lib Dem. There was no way I was ever going to vote for the then government. There have been times when I've chosen not to vote and would welcome a 'None of the Above' option on ballot papers.
I believe that the beginning of every race should be equal but fully recognise and accept the finish won't be. I believe that talent and endevour should be rewarded. I left school at 15 with no qualifications. I've worked fecking hard to reach a level where graduation and language skills are the norm - I have neither, and it winds me up, right up, when people deride me for the things that I have and the relatively comfortable life I lead. That said, I also believe that when people fall on hard times then they should be looked after on the proviso that they too have shown willing in doing their bit. I believe that if you haven't been prepared to contribute then you're in no position to withdraw. I believe that if people bring children into the world then they are their responsibility, not mine, so don't expect me to pick up their tab. I believe that the NHS is the most magnificent institution on Earth. I believe in protecting the Greenbelt (both Labour institutions) I despise animal testing for cosmetic purpose but fully support it for medical research. I hate factory farming having experienced it at first hand and now consciously avoid its produce. I will do anything for anyone if I feel that they'd try their best for me. I won't do anything for anyone that's looking for something for nothing. In the recent article that you refer to the subject of my post was Gerald Kauffman. I despise piss-takers like him with every fibre of my being regardless of his political persuasion. He disgusts me.
So, all in all, I do fall to the political right, but certainly not in any blinkered way and certainly not at all costs. I hope that clears things up a little.

Interesting thing here is, I'd put myself in the complete opposite to Bruce, left of centre.

Certainly not far left, and I've voted for the Lib Dems, the SDP and labour in the past.

A lot of what Bruce describes there I'd have common ground with.

Which probably sums up politics in this country, the populous meanders around the centre and the parties reflect this. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but probably why relatively few members of the public have a real political passion.

Arguing over nuances and versions is hardly as exciting or juicy as arguing over whole ideals and principles....

[William the White]

OK, thanks for clearing that up, I should explain my position. My politics are right of centre, but come every election I weigh up what everyone has to say. Though I usually do end up voting Conservative that in no way means that I go charging down to the polling office, wearing a blue rosette, to cast my vote in their favour. In the last general election I decided on the morning of the election to vote Conservative over Lib Dem. There was no way I was ever going to vote for the then government. There have been times when I've chosen not to vote and would welcome a 'None of the Above' option on ballot papers.
I believe that the beginning of every race should be equal but fully recognise and accept the finish won't be. I believe that talent and endevour should be rewarded. I left school at 15 with no qualifications. I've worked fecking hard to reach a level where graduation and language skills are the norm - I have neither, and it winds me up, right up, when people deride me for the things that I have and the relatively comfortable life I lead. That said, I also believe that when people fall on hard times then they should be looked after on the proviso that they too have shown willing in doing their bit. I believe that if you haven't been prepared to contribute then you're in no position to withdraw. I believe that if people bring children into the world then they are their responsibility, not mine, so don't expect me to pick up their tab. I believe that the NHS is the most magnificent institution on Earth. I believe in protecting the Greenbelt (both Labour institutions) I despise animal testing for cosmetic purpose but fully support it for medical research. I hate factory farming having experienced it at first hand and now consciously avoid its produce. I will do anything for anyone if I feel that they'd try their best for me. I won't do anything for anyone that's looking for something for nothing. In the recent article that you refer to the subject of my post was Gerald Kauffman. I despise piss-takers like him with every fibre of my being regardless of his political persuasion. He disgusts me.
So, all in all, I do fall to the political right, but certainly not in any blinkered way and certainly not at all costs. I hope that clears things up a little.

Interesting thing here is, I'd put myself in the complete opposite to Bruce, left of centre.

Certainly not far left, and I've voted for the Lib Dems, the SDP and labour in the past.

A lot of what Bruce describes there I'd have common ground with.

Which probably sums up politics in this country, the populous meanders around the centre and the parties reflect this. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but probably why relatively few members of the public have a real political passion.

Arguing over nuances and versions is hardly as exciting or juicy as arguing over whole ideals and principles....

You know, I read Bruce's post and I sort of think he's somehow strayed into the wrong party... Because the Old Etonian Party don't actually share his concern for important things like the NHS, treatment of animals, the environment... You'd think from this he's naturally a Labour voter... So, my guess is he feels that Labour are soft on benefits, layabouts, idlers etc... But he doesn't seem to be as angry about the tax avoiders, off shore party goers, we have billions don't you dare raise the minimum wage to £8...

[Bruce Rioja]

I'd rather my Prime Minister received the best education available than to have gone to the local comp, Will. By the way, Millibrand was raised in a book lined Georgian villa in Primrose Hill, so his local-boy-done-good, man-of-the-people claims are clearly shite. I really don't understand the left's "privileged few" claims, I'd say better educated. And I don't see any of them hiding it, far less dress it up as something that it wasn't.

More than anything, I hate the notion that "What he/she says is crap" simply because they belong to the other side of the house. I reckon that there are far more like me, nearer the political centre, than there are to either extreme. We just make as lot less noise.

To go back to thebish's Bruce defends tories claim, yes, I suppose he's right, but it's the job of the opposition to deride the current government, but it really winds me up that the current opposition put forward this "everything was great until you came along" point of view. Are they really calling us, and I mean all of us, that fecking stupid?

[Worthy4England]

I suppose he's right, but it's the job of the opposition to deride the current government, but it really winds me up that the current opposition put forward this "everything was great until you came along" point of view. Are they really calling us, and I mean all of us, that fecking stupid?

I don't think they're calling us that fecking stupid. It's a tactic that nearly all oppositions use, including pretty much all the previous oppositions I can recall in my lifetime.

They know that half of the electorate is "that fecking stupid" - they've been in charge of Education policy for 13 years (just like the last lot).

[William the White]

I'd rather my Prime Minister received the best education available than to have gone to the local comp, Will.

I'd rather have an education system that you couldn't just buy... This damages our democracy... In my England there would be no Eton...

By the way, Millibrand was raised in a book lined Georgian villa in Primrose Hill, so his local-boy-done-good, man-of-the-people claims are clearly shite.

I'm puzzled - has he actually made any claims of this kind? his father was one of the most famous Marxist theoreticians in the country, he grew up with left wing ideas around him every second of the day. Can you actually offer any evidence at all that he claimed to be anything else?

I really don't understand the left's "privileged few" claims, I'd say better educated. And I don't see any of them hiding it, far less dress it up as something that it wasn't.

More than anything, I hate the notion that "What he/she says is crap" simply because they belong to the other side of the house. I reckon that there are far more like me, nearer the political centre, than there are to either extreme. We just make as lot less noise.

Yes... I was just interested that you vote on the right when your post dealt mostly with issues that normally are those of the left... You know, if the NHS is the best institution on earth, why would you vote for these idiots and what they are doing to it?

To go back to thebish's Bruce defends tories claim, yes, I suppose he's right, but it's the job of the opposition to deride the current government, but it really winds me up that the current opposition put forward this "everything was great until you came along" point of view. Are they really calling us, and I mean all of us, that fecking stupid?

Here I agree. Sort of. But I also feel the Coalition, for political gain, are treating us as stupid... Since we have a world crisis of capitalism, clearly, is it all Gordon Brown's fault???

No, actually it's a systemic crisis... And the people that caused it are doing ok, and those that didn't are having their benefits removed.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'd rather my Prime Minister received the best education available than to have gone to the local comp, Will. By the way, Millibrand was raised in a book lined Georgian villa in Primrose Hill, so his local-boy-done-good, man-of-the-people claims are clearly shite. I really don't understand the left's "privileged few" claims, I'd say better educated. And I don't see any of them hiding it, far less dress it up as something that it wasn't.

More than anything, I hate the notion that "What he/she says is crap" simply because they belong to the other side of the house. I reckon that there are far more like me, nearer the political centre, than there are to either extreme. We just make as lot less noise.

To go back to thebish's Bruce defends tories claim, yes, I suppose he's right, but it's the job of the opposition to deride the current government, but it really winds me up that the current opposition put forward this "everything was great until you came along" point of view. Are they really calling us, and I mean all of us, that fecking stupid?

Is that not what they all have done though? And likely will for ever more. The Tories did it last time, when Blair got in, even though everyone knew it were bollocks. Mind they were such a shambles as a party at the time I doubt anyone noticed.

It's the political game. And I guess end of the day it's all about opinion. I do think we were much better off. You clearly do not.....

[Bruce Rioja]

I'd rather my Prime Minister received the best education available than to have gone to the local comp, Will.

I'd rather have an education system that you couldn't just buy... This damages our democracy... In my England there would be no Eton...

By the way, Millibrand was raised in a book lined Georgian villa in Primrose Hill, so his local-boy-done-good, man-of-the-people claims are clearly shite.

I'm puzzled - has he actually made any claims of this kind? his father was one of the most famous Marxist theoreticians in the country, he grew up with left wing ideas around him every second of the day. Can you actually offer any evidence at all that he claimed to be anything else?

I really don't understand the left's "privileged few" claims, I'd say better educated. And I don't see any of them hiding it, far less dress it up as something that it wasn't.

More than anything, I hate the notion that "What he/she says is crap" simply because they belong to the other side of the house. I reckon that there are far more like me, nearer the political centre, than there are to either extreme. We just make as lot less noise.

Yes... I was just interested that you vote on the right when your post dealt mostly with issues that normally are those of the left... You know, if the NHS is the best institution on earth, why would you vote for these idiots and what they are doing to it?

To go back to thebish's Bruce defends tories claim, yes, I suppose he's right, but it's the job of the opposition to deride the current government, but it really winds me up that the current opposition put forward this "everything was great until you came along" point of view. Are they really calling us, and I mean all of us, that fecking stupid?

Here I agree. Sort of. But I also feel the Coalition, for political gain, are treating us as stupid... Since we have a world crisis of capitalism, clearly, is it all Gordon Brown's fault???

No, actually it's a systemic crisis... And the people that caused it are doing ok, and those that didn't are having their benefits removed.

(a) Maybe that would suit you better, but that's not how it is, and allowing for market forces you'll find our country's best teachers teaching at Eton and Harrow, which is where I'd like my Prime Minister to be educated.

(b) Has Millibrand played on his local comp - man of the people education? Have you been living under a stone?

(c) I'm mightily concerned, absolutely seriously concerned by the current government's plans for the NHS. I still believe it to be the most magnificent institution on Earth.

(d) No. Blair knew exactly what he was doing, and when to do it

[thebish]

allowing for market forces you'll find our country's best teachers teaching at Eton and Harrow, which is where I'd like my Prime Minister to be educated.

I understood what you wrote before - but this doesn't ring true at all...

firstly - I don't know where the measurement comes from that you are using to assert that our country's best teachers are teaching at Eaton and Harrow... how on earth do you know this???

but even leaving that aside...

what you wrote before (quite movingly) about people pulling themselves up by hard work and effort just doesn't seem to sit well with the idea that you actually seem to think it is an important thing to look for in a Prime Minister that he (do Eton and Harrow have girls?) went to Eton or Harrow.

that seems to quite staggeringly limit the pool of potential Prime Ministers - and for no obvious reason...

[William the White]

I'd rather my Prime Minister received the best education available than to have gone to the local comp, Will.

I'd rather have an education system that you couldn't just buy... This damages our democracy... In my England there would be no Eton...

By the way, Millibrand was raised in a book lined Georgian villa in Primrose Hill, so his local-boy-done-good, man-of-the-people claims are clearly shite.

I'm puzzled - has he actually made any claims of this kind? his father was one of the most famous Marxist theoreticians in the country, he grew up with left wing ideas around him every second of the day. Can you actually offer any evidence at all that he claimed to be anything else?

I really don't understand the left's "privileged few" claims, I'd say better educated. And I don't see any of them hiding it, far less dress it up as something that it wasn't.

More than anything, I hate the notion that "What he/she says is crap" simply because they belong to the other side of the house. I reckon that there are far more like me, nearer the political centre, than there are to either extreme. We just make as lot less noise.

Yes... I was just interested that you vote on the right when your post dealt mostly with issues that normally are those of the left... You know, if the NHS is the best institution on earth, why would you vote for these idiots and what they are doing to it?

To go back to thebish's Bruce defends tories claim, yes, I suppose he's right, but it's the job of the opposition to deride the current government, but it really winds me up that the current opposition put forward this "everything was great until you came along" point of view. Are they really calling us, and I mean all of us, that fecking stupid?

Here I agree. Sort of. But I also feel the Coalition, for political gain, are treating us as stupid... Since we have a world crisis of capitalism, clearly, is it all Gordon Brown's fault???

No, actually it's a systemic crisis... And the people that caused it are doing ok, and those that didn't are having their benefits removed.

(a) Maybe that would suit you better, but that's not how it is, and allowing for market forces you'll find our country's best teachers teaching at Eton and Harrow, which is where I'd like my Prime Minister to be educated.

You are just having a laugh here? All prime ministers have to come from Eton or Harrow??? Nice one, Bruce, winding up the lefties like this...

(b) Has Millibrand played on his local comp - man of the people education? Have you been living under a stone?

For myself, the ideas are important, not the pedigree. But, you know, and I do, that the education he had meant that he wasn't wrapped up in the exclusive atmosphere of Cameron, Boris and Osborne. I do think he grew up in a privileged background but not in cocoon of the English ruling class looking after their children, and then their children looking after each other and so on, and so on, until we put a stop to it...

(c) I'm mightily concerned, absolutely seriously concerned by the current government's plans for the NHS. I still believe it to be the most magnificent institution on Earth.

Me too

(d) No. Blair knew exactly what he was doing, and when to do it

Capitalism has crisis built into it... The people in charge now are submitting to that... There is another way... Commit to growth, invest in the future...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

No - I am merely disagreeing with your claim that I was dredging summat up that wasn't in the news. It was in the news the day I posted it because of a speech he had made which I was highlighting. Not sure what your problem is here...

No, his expenses claims were not 'in the news' that day.

He made a speech and somebody knocked together yet another shit internet meme, dredging up the sort of ordinary, boring expenses claim that pretty much every MP across all parties used to think was both within the letter and spirit of the rules and just part of how MPs are paid.

Never mind - unfortunately this sort of thing passes for political debate these days.

But it's prompted an interesting discussion on here.

Am I a 'raving' Tory? Possibly. More in political outlook that in bare partisan allegiance, I would say. I do sometimes wonder whether, if I had been born 15 years earlier and had been the age I am now in 1997, Tony Blair and the New Labour project might have appealed to me.

[thebish]

No - I am merely disagreeing with your claim that I was dredging summat up that wasn't in the news. It was in the news the day I posted it because of a speech he had made which I was highlighting. Not sure what your problem is here...

No, his expenses claims were not 'in the news' that day.

yes - they were - I looked it up to check what the meme was banging on about. Several newspapers reported his speech and made the link to his expenses claims.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

No - I am merely disagreeing with your claim that I was dredging summat up that wasn't in the news. It was in the news the day I posted it because of a speech he had made which I was highlighting. Not sure what your problem is here...

No, his expenses claims were not 'in the news' that day.

yes - they were - I looked it up to check what the meme was banging on about. Several newspapers reported his speech and made the link to his expenses claims.

Which newspapers? Do you have a link?

[thebish]

No - I am merely disagreeing with your claim that I was dredging summat up that wasn't in the news. It was in the news the day I posted it because of a speech he had made which I was highlighting. Not sure what your problem is here...

No, his expenses claims were not 'in the news' that day.

yes - they were - I looked it up to check what the meme was banging on about. Several newspapers reported his speech and made the link to his expenses claims.

Which newspapers? Do you have a link?

not now - no! it was back in October sometime!! He was in the news - making a speech about poor people who play the system.

what's your problem with me pointing out that someone in the news making a speech telling poor people they can't play the system was himself caught playing the system??

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

not now - no! it was back in October sometime!! He was in the news - making a speech about poor people who play the system.

what's your problem with me pointing out that someone in the news making a speech telling poor people they can't play the system was himself caught playing the system??

I don't think he was 'caught' doing anything and I don't think it's a helpful addition to any debate about benefit cheats.

His speech was two weeks ago - if the newspaper articles you say exist actually do (and they might I suppose), evidence of this would not be difficult to come by.

[thebish]

not now - no! it was back in October sometime!! He was in the news - making a speech about poor people who play the system.

what's your problem with me pointing out that someone in the news making a speech telling poor people they can't play the system was himself caught playing the system??

I don't think he was 'caught' doing anything and I don't think it's a helpful addition to any debate about benefit cheats.

His speech was two weeks ago - if the newspaper articles you say exist actually do (and they might I suppose), evidence of this would not be difficult to come by.

I'm still not really understanding your problem or your point...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

not now - no! it was back in October sometime!! He was in the news - making a speech about poor people who play the system.

what's your problem with me pointing out that someone in the news making a speech telling poor people they can't play the system was himself caught playing the system??

I don't think he was 'caught' doing anything and I don't think it's a helpful addition to any debate about benefit cheats.

His speech was two weeks ago - if the newspaper articles you say exist actually do (and they might I suppose), evidence of this would not be difficult to come by.

I'm still not really understanding your problem or your point...

Quite rightly, you hold people to a high standard of accuracy when they say something.

You said:

Several newspapers reported his speech and made the link to his expenses claims.

And I doubt the veracity of this statement.

Is that clear enough?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

not now - no! it was back in October sometime!! He was in the news - making a speech about poor people who play the system.

what's your problem with me pointing out that someone in the news making a speech telling poor people they can't play the system was himself caught playing the system??

I don't think he was 'caught' doing anything and I don't think it's a helpful addition to any debate about benefit cheats.

His speech was two weeks ago - if the newspaper articles you say exist actually do (and they might I suppose), evidence of this would not be difficult to come by.

I'm still not really understanding your problem or your point...

Quite rightly, you hold people to a high standard of accuracy when they say something.

You said:

Several newspapers reported his speech and made the link to his expenses claims.

And I doubt the veracity of this statement.

Is that clear enough?

He's calling you a liar Bish. He wants his nuts crushing, the dirty filthy Privilege-monger!
If I was speaker, I'd let you borrow my mace.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Anyway, on a completely different topic (sort of...) Here's a tale of kindly goodly left wing folk being ripped off by evil nasty unscrupulous right-wingers:

From http://boingboing.net/2012/11/05/monopo ... erver.html



Christopher Ketcham's beautifully written Harper's feature on the history of Monopoly, "Monopoly Is Theft," traces the idealistic socialist land-reformers who created the game and modified it over decades, and the unscrupulous "inventor" who claimed to have created it and sold it to Parker Brothers. Monopoly's forerunner was "The Landlord's Game," created by Lizzie Magie, inspired by Henry George, who believed in the abolition of land-ownership and created a powerful movement to make this a reality. Many of George's devotees played The Landlord's Game, learning about the evils of real-estate and rentiers, and they modified the rules together, creating the game as we know it, changing its name to "monopoly" (all lower-case). Then "an unemployed steam-radiator repairman and part-time dog walker from Philadelphia named Charles Darrow" copied it, patented it, and sold it to Parker Brothers. The rest is history.

[BWFC_Insane]

Anyhow, who is going to win today, Romney or Obama? Place your virtual bets......

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Anyhow, who is going to win today, Romney or Obama? Place your virtual bets......

Shan't... too close to call. It'll be down to whether or not a few dozen alligator farmers in Jeb Bush's heartland can find their way out of the mangrove swamps and bother to vote... or not.