The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

Bluster, bullshit and blah, blah...

[BWFC_Insane]

Bluster, bullshit and blah, blah...

Its like listening to a toddler being caught red handed drawing on the wall to try explain their way out of it.

Its embarrassing.

[Worthy4England]

Bluster, bullshit and blah, blah...

Its like listening to a toddler being caught red handed drawing on the wall to try explain their way out of it.

Its embarrassing.

Yeah that one where the three year old has chocolate all round their gob, but don't know who might have taken the chocolate bar...

[TANGODANCER]

The most surprising fact is that the country as a whole knew the Covid rules, yet the Prime Minister, who would have been instrumental in making such rules, needed advisers to tell him right from wrong. Then again ,maybe not too surprising after all.

[Worthy4England]

I think that's why people are angry TD. And the picture of the Queen on her tod..when they has a "business meeting" until 2 in the morning the night before...

[TANGODANCER]

"Chuzpah" is a Yiddish/Jewish word for affrontery/ hardfaced behaviour, etc. It well describes Boris's present attitude. A classic example of it is the youth who asked a judge for clemenecy after murdering his parents on the grounds that he was an orphan.

[Hoboh]

I guess the 120 or so legal eagles (or more apt, pigeons) with their green law breaking support agenda are driving us closer to the day the whole dodgy system is reformed for the better. Carry on chaps.

[BWFC_Insane]

I guess the 120 or so legal eagles (or more apt, pigeons) with their green law breaking support agenda are driving us closer to the day the whole dodgy system is reformed for the better. Carry on chaps.

What's dodgy about it and what needs reform? Some extremists having particular views is seemingly a part of society so will be reflected everywhere. But unless you really fall for the absolute nonsense parts of the media and government want you to believe the idea that there is some sort of elite legal conspiracy to protect some people over others is absolutely for the birds.

Its also dangerously close to the sort of propaganda the Nazis did actually use to justify arrest of all Jewish lawyers...

[Worthy4England]

I guess the 120 or so legal eagles (or more apt, pigeons) with their green law breaking support agenda are driving us closer to the day the whole dodgy system is reformed for the better. Carry on chaps.

Giz a clue, Hobes?

I think the think that needs reforming most urgently is capitalism...

[BWFC_Insane]

I guess the 120 or so legal eagles (or more apt, pigeons) with their green law breaking support agenda are driving us closer to the day the whole dodgy system is reformed for the better. Carry on chaps.

Giz a clue, Hobes?

I think the think that needs reforming most urgently is capitalism...

How would you reform it? I was in a meeting yesterday and one thing that kept coming up is the issue of 'wealth' and how the system is completely unable to deal with it. We're obsessed with taxing income and many of the arguments about taxing income are outdated. A lot of the 'well he should pay more tax' arguments based on income are looking at relatively large salaries but hardly the wealthiest of people and also dealing with income in isolation.

So for example you have people who employ very few folk, or maybe even only a handful simply to manage their money and estate who invest in the markets and property with their accumulated wealth make a fortune, avoid as much tax on their income as possible (and that isn't hard when you have this money) and generally do not benefit the UK or its economy at all.

No idea what the answer is though - but its definitely where I feel we've gone wrong.

[boltonboris]

Well for a start, business like Banks, will pay 80% of their staff a pittance, whilst raking in Billions

They have foodbanks in their call centres FFS - Pay them properly, reduce profits as a result, then the System gets more tax receipts to pay for infrastructure, or proper pensions, or to look after sick people

UK companies are making probably Trillions in profits, and hardly any of it is filtering down - We've become the US

[boltonboris]

We've got this thing where paying people more money is bad, because it'll force companies to increase their prices, to ensure they remain as profitable for the sake of a group of already wealthier than normal share holders.

People asking for a fair wage to buy a house and feed their families whilst being able to enjoy a nice holiday once a year are demonised as the people crippling the country and being "anti-growth"

[BWFC_Insane]

I agree with that BB the issue is that whilst there are examples of higher wage economies like Sweden or Denmark - I don't think its clear how we get from where we are to that sort of a position, Because there aren't really any obvious political levers to pull and one assumes its a very very long term cultural change and shift in priority but that is hard to see happen with our political system and indeed economy.

[Worthy4England]

Agree Boris (not a thing you hear me say often ). The problem is at corporation level. It's those that are being the bandits - Johnny taxpayer is just footing the bill every time something happens that might impact their profits - that get's complicated, because we've got a pension system tied into the markets albeit it not always corporate - so gilts/bonds too etc. The corporations know this, so when there's any sort of move against their profitability, they buck the markets the pensions are tied to, so governments back off.

To Insano's point, when we were discussing last election about raising the tax rate for "the rich", I think you and I had some differing opinions (who'd have thought it ) about where that was and what it was. The problem is those who pay tax and full amounts of it, without using any "tax efficient" - but legal - mechanisms, are a captive group of people. Every time there's some sort of need to bring in more tax, it's those that get clobbered - irrespective of whether they earn £10k or £200k. We rarely get the people with asset wealth, because they're not dumb enough not to hide it. That's in part how Sunak ends up on his tax return paying 22%.

We are fixated on GDP, Inflation, Productivity. Every month, we produce figures. Where are the figures on Corporate profits? We've got a globe full of price fixing businesses holding us by the balls and the very people running the country who know how to exploit that. If we look at the current inflation spike, it's nothing to do with wages or people, yet our response is to raise the interest rate, which would be a potential answer to a totally different question.

We're being price gouged on a regular basis by businesses and being told to pick up the tab/pain. Companies are making record profits. That's where the money is going - and some to their investors - (and they only declare the profits that they haven't managed to hide)...

[BWFC_Insane]

Agree Boris (not a thing you hear me say often ). The problem is at corporation level. It's those that are being the bandits - Johnny taxpayer is just footing the bill every time something happens that might impact their profits - that get's complicated, because we've got a pension system tied into the markets albeit it not always corporate - so gilts/bonds too etc. The corporations know this, so when there's any sort of move against their profitability, they buck the markets the pensions are tied to, so governments back off.

To Insano's point, when we were discussing last election about raising the tax rate for "the rich", I think you and I had some differing opinions (who'd have thought it ) about where that was and what it was. The problem is those who pay tax and full amounts of it, without using any "tax efficient" - but legal - mechanisms, are a captive group of people. Every time there's some sort of need to bring in more tax, it's those that get clobbered - irrespective of whether they earn £10k or £200k. We rarely get the people with asset wealth, because they're not dumb enough not to hide it. That's in part how Sunak ends up on his tax return paying 22%.

We are fixated on GDP, Inflation, Productivity. Every month, we produce figures. Where are the figures on Corporate profits? We've got a globe full of price fixing businesses holding us by the balls and the very people running the country who know how to exploit that. If we look at the current inflation spike, it's nothing to do with wages or people, yet our response is to raise the interest rate, which would be a potential answer to a totally different question.

We're being price gouged on a regular basis by businesses and being told to pick up the tab/pain. Companies are making record profits. That's where the money is going - and some to their investors - (and they only declare the profits that they haven't managed to hide)...

Indeed. The problem is how we can change this. Because even if there was mass political will (and there isn't) its hard to actually do it without risking a lot of negative consequences in the transition which of course comes back to - there isn't the political will or capital to do it and thus the pain will simply provoke a change of course.

One of the biggest issues with capitalism is it relies on businesses to have a duty to make profit - to increase revenue, profits and whatever. So baked in is an inescapable - NEED for that to happen. And the issue as you say is that now happens only at the top end by squeezing everyone else. But they can't in reality do anything else. Because they are required not to, by their shareholders, by their owners and by the economic system under which the majority of the world operates.

And if someone suggests social democratic adaptation of the system they are branded a communist but the very people who are probably right now riled up by the fake 'elite establishment'. The truth is that much of the change isn't about politics because whoever leads the UK can't change the global economy or indeed reform our economy without significant cultural and behavioural shifts that take generations.

[TANGODANCER]

Sadly, we're part of that "Big Picture" that we're always being told we need to consider. The reality is its a "my way or the highway" game were you have to know your place. To use casinos as a comparable but irrelevant example: You're fine and welcome as long as you play small and win the same way. Start to impact on the real money end of things and a way will be found to unbalance the scale. Winning is for the big bank balance minority and importance on the size of your yacht.

Power, greed and wealth are the Capo di tuti capos of a once self-sufficient country (us) that now can't stand up from the table and say we don't want to play any more. In short, there are too many outside influences ruling what once was a family game of Monopoly. Capitalism didn't invent itself, it's a man -made bear trap. If things get too tough, make Joe public pay or Jaques as is happening in France right now with raising the pension age.

"It's all a checkerboard of nights and days,
where destiny with men for pieces plays,
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the Closet lays."................................Omar Khayyam.

"the illusory vanities of wealth, power and ambition."

Amen..

[Worthy4England]

Agree Boris (not a thing you hear me say often ). The problem is at corporation level. It's those that are being the bandits - Johnny taxpayer is just footing the bill every time something happens that might impact their profits - that get's complicated, because we've got a pension system tied into the markets albeit it not always corporate - so gilts/bonds too etc. The corporations know this, so when there's any sort of move against their profitability, they buck the markets the pensions are tied to, so governments back off.

To Insano's point, when we were discussing last election about raising the tax rate for "the rich", I think you and I had some differing opinions (who'd have thought it ) about where that was and what it was. The problem is those who pay tax and full amounts of it, without using any "tax efficient" - but legal - mechanisms, are a captive group of people. Every time there's some sort of need to bring in more tax, it's those that get clobbered - irrespective of whether they earn £10k or £200k. We rarely get the people with asset wealth, because they're not dumb enough not to hide it. That's in part how Sunak ends up on his tax return paying 22%.

We are fixated on GDP, Inflation, Productivity. Every month, we produce figures. Where are the figures on Corporate profits? We've got a globe full of price fixing businesses holding us by the balls and the very people running the country who know how to exploit that. If we look at the current inflation spike, it's nothing to do with wages or people, yet our response is to raise the interest rate, which would be a potential answer to a totally different question.

We're being price gouged on a regular basis by businesses and being told to pick up the tab/pain. Companies are making record profits. That's where the money is going - and some to their investors - (and they only declare the profits that they haven't managed to hide)...

Indeed. The problem is how we can change this. Because even if there was mass political will (and there isn't) its hard to actually do it without risking a lot of negative consequences in the transition which of course comes back to - there isn't the political will or capital to do it and thus the pain will simply provoke a change of course.

One of the biggest issues with capitalism is it relies on businesses to have a duty to make profit - to increase revenue, profits and whatever. So baked in is an inescapable - NEED for that to happen. And the issue as you say is that now happens only at the top end by squeezing everyone else. But they can't in reality do anything else. Because they are required not to, by their shareholders, by their owners and by the economic system under which the majority of the world operates.

And if someone suggests social democratic adaptation of the system they are branded a communist but the very people who are probably right now riled up by the fake 'elite establishment'. The truth is that much of the change isn't about politics because whoever leads the UK can't change the global economy or indeed reform our economy without significant cultural and behavioural shifts that take generations.

Aye, which is sorta why I don't think it'd change much under Labour. They might rearrange some deck chairs, but the problem is the ship.

We should be up in arms, picking up the bill for inflation that hasn't been stoked by consumer demand.

We applaud cutting wages in real terms whilst company profits soar.

Many of our kids are caught in zero hours and gig economy.we let it happen to them.

We allow the governments to push up our retirement age and demolish the social mechanisms we pay for - they're on the streets in France, we say "stop some boats"

It really is fooked and we stand by and say this is OK.

[BWFC_Insane]

Agree Boris (not a thing you hear me say often ). The problem is at corporation level. It's those that are being the bandits - Johnny taxpayer is just footing the bill every time something happens that might impact their profits - that get's complicated, because we've got a pension system tied into the markets albeit it not always corporate - so gilts/bonds too etc. The corporations know this, so when there's any sort of move against their profitability, they buck the markets the pensions are tied to, so governments back off.

To Insano's point, when we were discussing last election about raising the tax rate for "the rich", I think you and I had some differing opinions (who'd have thought it ) about where that was and what it was. The problem is those who pay tax and full amounts of it, without using any "tax efficient" - but legal - mechanisms, are a captive group of people. Every time there's some sort of need to bring in more tax, it's those that get clobbered - irrespective of whether they earn £10k or £200k. We rarely get the people with asset wealth, because they're not dumb enough not to hide it. That's in part how Sunak ends up on his tax return paying 22%.

We are fixated on GDP, Inflation, Productivity. Every month, we produce figures. Where are the figures on Corporate profits? We've got a globe full of price fixing businesses holding us by the balls and the very people running the country who know how to exploit that. If we look at the current inflation spike, it's nothing to do with wages or people, yet our response is to raise the interest rate, which would be a potential answer to a totally different question.

We're being price gouged on a regular basis by businesses and being told to pick up the tab/pain. Companies are making record profits. That's where the money is going - and some to their investors - (and they only declare the profits that they haven't managed to hide)...

Indeed. The problem is how we can change this. Because even if there was mass political will (and there isn't) its hard to actually do it without risking a lot of negative consequences in the transition which of course comes back to - there isn't the political will or capital to do it and thus the pain will simply provoke a change of course.

One of the biggest issues with capitalism is it relies on businesses to have a duty to make profit - to increase revenue, profits and whatever. So baked in is an inescapable - NEED for that to happen. And the issue as you say is that now happens only at the top end by squeezing everyone else. But they can't in reality do anything else. Because they are required not to, by their shareholders, by their owners and by the economic system under which the majority of the world operates.

And if someone suggests social democratic adaptation of the system they are branded a communist but the very people who are probably right now riled up by the fake 'elite establishment'. The truth is that much of the change isn't about politics because whoever leads the UK can't change the global economy or indeed reform our economy without significant cultural and behavioural shifts that take generations.

Aye, which is sorta why I don't think it'd change much under Labour. They might rearrange some deck chairs, but the problem is the ship.

We should be up in arms, picking up the bill for inflation that hasn't been stoked by consumer demand.

We applaud cutting wages in real terms whilst company profits soar.

Many of our kids are caught in zero hours and gig economy.we let it happen to them.

We allow the governments to push up our retirement age and demolish the social mechanisms we pay for - they're on the streets in France, we say "stop some boats"

It really is fooked and we stand by and say this is OK.

I think its true (BIB) APART from the fact that there is inside the Labour party at least SOME political will to make changes - and whilst they are hampered by needing to win power the fact is that there is a small chance they could in power start to seed the conditions for the changes required. Its only small. But there is zero chance the Tories ever will. Zero.

Even the most minor basic things like windfall taxes on excess profits - at least Labour will speak out on those. Even IF its nowhere near enough.

I suspect one of the issues is simply - that someone like say Corbyn might have had an idea what an endpoint might look like or need to look like but had zero clue, zero clue how to get there and couldn't even understand that there was a need to get there - you can't just wish it into existence. And thus was (for that and many other reasons) completely useless.

On the other hand you have Blair (and Starmer who is following the playbook of Blair) who may well create the conditions of starting the process but then might miss the chance. Because they are too laser focussed on the journey and problems contained within it and the fact that starting the journey may well end their party in power for a while.

[TANGODANCER]

More media waffle...Why wouldn't the President of France have an expensive watch and why did the B.B.C make it a headline?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65069823

[Hoboh]

Ahh well, seems the SNP have done Scotland a huge favour electing someone with the charm of Corbyn and the charisma of Starmer to lead them.