when the fat lady sings

William the White · Post by **William the White** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:11 pm

Prompted by ratbert to test the outer reaches of cultural tolerance on TW... Here is the opera thread...

I'm sort of old fashioned here - Verdi and Puccini baste my pasta...

La Traviata... seen it five times...

anyone biting?

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:58 pm

I'd say here, William, (mostly on the part of myself) that I'd love to spend an evening at the opera, only I've no idea where to start and wouldn't want to be looked down upon by the cognoscenti as simply being some jeans-wearing dullard (though they'd have a point).

You're clearly no snob, so is there any chance of a beginner's guide type o' thang here?

Little Green Man · Post by **Little Green Man** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:08 pm

I'm with you on Brad Fraser, WtW (on countback, I now reckon I've seem three of his, including UHR and Ugly Man) however I can't stand opera. There's nothing that gets me reaching for the off button quicker (other than Nicky Ferking Campbell).

There, I've said it!

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:17 pm

Just listen to a few arias from classic operas; Nissun Dorma, La Donna Immobile, One fine Day etc. It's a start. Keep away from Wagner for a bit though.

Worthy4England · Post by **Worthy4England** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:44 pm

I with you on this one TD - plenty of good arias - not sure I could tuck in, to a whole Opera though. Maybe one day...

William the White · Post by **William the White** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:58 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:I'd say here, William, (mostly on the part of myself) that I'd love to spend an evening at the opera, only I've no idea where to start and wouldn't want to be looked down upon by the cognoscenti as simply being some jeans-wearing dullard (though they'd have a point).

You're clearly no snob, so is there any chance of a beginner's guide type o' thang here?

First - wear what you want, and feck anybody looking sniffy - there is no dress code at any opera house receiving subsidy from the arts council, in the country, in any seats. I've never yet worn a tie and only once a suit...

[EDITED TO GET RID OF AUTO-BIOGRAPHY]

Beginners thingy... If i had to name three accessible, wonderful intros to opera I'd go, in order of accessibility... Carmen (Bizet), La Traviata (Verdi), La Boheme (Puccini)...

My favourite single aria - sure you'll find it on line (Pavarotti, maybe?) is Di Provenza il mar, from La Traviata...

Thanks for recognising i'm not a snob, btw, I'm just an enthusiast for what turns me on...

By the way - there are a couple of football operas! i attended one, in manchester, in whites gear... really... some puzzled looks in the bar...

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:10 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:I'd say here, William, (mostly on the part of myself) that I'd love to spend an evening at the opera, only I've no idea where to start and wouldn't want to be looked down upon by the cognoscenti as simply being some jeans-wearing dullard (though they'd have a point).

You're clearly no snob, so is there any chance of a beginner's guide type o' thang here?

Make a start with Carmen Bruce. Lots of good stuff you'll probably recognise and a storyline to keep the attention. Incidentally, I once saw the stage play of Carmen at the Octagon Theatre with Josie Lawrence in the lead role. She was young, slim and quite attractive then and it was a really enjoyable production.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:18 pm

Both Verdi's Aida and Puccini's Turandot ("Tonight in Peking, none shall sleep" better known as Nissun Dorma) are on shortly in Manchester at the Opera House. (Next week in fact)

Turandot, 5th March, 7-15 start.

Aida, 6th and 7th March. 7-15 start.

officer_dibble · Post by **officer_dibble** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:26 pm

They do a free 'Opera in the Park' in Leeds every year, and the wags parents keep trying to get me to go

you take a picnic and some beers and listen to Lesley Jarrett or someone. They love it......I don't understand opera to be honest but like the idea of getting drunk and listening to all the ones from the world cup etc! Worth it? Would I get hooked?

Bit similiar to Bruce's question I guess.....I'd feel out of place?

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:32 pm

Worthy4England wrote:I with you on this one TD - plenty of good arias - not sure I could tuck in, to a whole Opera though. Maybe one day...

One Fine Day from Madame Butterfly never fails to get the hairs on the back of my neck and arms raising, as does Nissun Dorma.

Worthy4England · Post by **Worthy4England** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:41 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:I with you on this one TD - plenty of good arias - not sure I could tuck in, to a whole Opera though. Maybe one day...
One Fine Day from Madame Butterfly never fails to get the hairs on the back of my neck and arms raising, as does Nissun Dorma.

I like Nissun Dorma too (is it Nissun or Nessun?)

My personal fave - as I mentioned on a different thread is Senza Mamma from Suor Angelica by Puccini

Callas gives it a fair ole blast here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RSHveJpBUE

Dujon · Post by **Dujon** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:45 pm

Opera!

Good grief, the best way to ruin music. If you must listen to opera then don't watch it. If you must be there at the performance then shut your eyes and have a nap.

Opera is the most overrated and expensive form of the 'arts' that I can conjure up in my brain. In my opinion there are few singers who can come close to the oft quoted phrase 'the human voice is an instrument'. What a load of rubbish. Most opera singers to whose renditions I have been privy sound little better than the local cats during their mating season. Then we have the repetitious 'season' which is something like a radio station providing 'the hits of the century' over and over and over again . . . and again.

There is a limit to the number of times you can watch The Magnificent Seven or How the West was Won or even The Battle of Britain. How many times have you sat down in front of your fireplace, sweeping the hob as necessary whilst reading the pondering of The Bard? Why should opera be different?

To be quite honest I'd rather pop down to my local high school's production of 'Oliver'. At least they are enthusiastic about their craft.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:51 pm

Dujon wrote:Opera!

Good grief, the best way to ruin music. If you must listen to opera then don't watch it. If you must be there at the performance then shut your eyes and have a nap.

Opera is the most overrated and expensive form of the 'arts' that I can conjure up in my brain. In my opinion there are few singers who can come close to the oft quoted phrase 'the human voice is an instrument'. What a load of rubbish. Most opera singers to whose renditions I have been privy sound little better than the local cats during their mating season. Then we have the repetitious 'season' which is something like a radio station providing 'the hits of the century' over and over and over again . . . and again.

There is a limit to the number of times you can watch The Magnificent Seven or How the West was Won or even The Battle of Britain. How many times have you sat down in front of your fireplace, sweeping the hob as necessary whilst reading the pondering of The Bard? Why should opera be different?

To be quite honest I'd rather pop down to my local high school's production of 'Oliver. At least they are enthusiastic about their craft.

Aye, not half as good as going down the local and hearing some inebriated regular subjecting everybody to his weekly rendition of Danny Boy hey Dujon?

Dujon · Post by **Dujon** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:18 am

To bhe 'onest, TANGO, probably.

I'd rather listen to some idiot stretching his vocal chords to produce some sort of imitation of a tune (sorry) than listen to some well paid impresario's student banging out something in which s/he has no interest with a million quid background set to support them.

In other words, Opera (and I use the capital advisedly) is a shovel full of the base of a midden.

If any viewer of this post has not already 'got it': I detest the pretentiousness of those who think opera is some sort of 'god's gift to man'. An opera in the days of yore was the equivalent of our present day musical, a situation with which I have no truck. Nevertheless, to elevate a musical to some sort of artistic pedestal is, surely, silly.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:24 am

Dujon wrote:To bhe 'onest, TANGO, probably.

I'd rather listen to some idiot stretching his vocal chords to produce some sort of imitation of a tune (sorry) than listen to some well paid impresario's student banging out something in which s/he has no interest with a million quid background set to support them.

In other words, Opera (and I use the capital advisedly) is a shovel full of the base of a midden.

If any viewer of this post has not already 'got it': I detest the pretentiousness of those who think opera is some sort of 'god's gift to man'. An opera in the days of yore was the equivalent of our present day musical, a situation with which I have no truck. Nevertheless, to elevate a musical to some sort of artistic pedestal is, surely, silly.

And the stories? Turandot, Rigoletto, Carmen, Der Rose und Cavalier? No merit? And the voices of the lead singers, no merit?

Dujon · Post by **Dujon** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:24 am

Phah! A story of love and death, a story of unrequited love, a story of ambition, success and failure? It's all been done before, TANGO, and the fact that you have spent more money than anyone else on a production and have hired the most vibrated soprano in the world makes it no better. It doesn't, mate, it doesn't. Have you listened to the screechy sound which emanates from some of our so-called 'stars'?

Sir, the field is yours. You have the choice of weapons: Dame Joan Sutherland, Dame Kiri Te Kanawa (once slim) or any other fat lady. In my corner I will have a set of lead violinists, a couple of the brassiest people I can find and a copper conductor.

Now that, sir, should be electric.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:39 pm

Dujon wrote:Phah! A story of love and death, a story of unrequited love, a story of ambition, success and failure? It's all been done before, TANGO, and the fact that you have spent more money than anyone else on a production and have hired the most vibrated soprano in the world makes it no better. It doesn't, mate, it doesn't. Have you listened to the screechy sound which emanates from some of our so-called 'stars'?

Sir, the field is yours. You have the choice of weapons: Dame Joan Sutherland, Dame Kiri Te Kanawa (once slim) or any other fat lady. In my corner I will have a set of lead violinists, a couple of the brassiest people I can find and a copper conductor.

Now that, sir, should be electric.

But, you see Dujon, this is the beauty of having wide musical tastes. I'm just as happy listening to or viewing a good musical, a flamenco show, a fine opera aria, a selection of Borodin or the joy of Ravel's Bolero played live by The Halle Orchestra. Add to that a fine selection of Big Band/Swing music, Dean Martin, Sinatra or Ella , a wide range of Latin and dance music or a session of Bond (the group, not James). Neither do I dismiss all the rock and pop music that made my earlier life so enjoyable. It's all part of the great world of musical appreciation and people doing things above and beyond any of my own non-existent musical talents. Without music, what a weary world it would be.

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:56 pm

Dujon wrote:Phah! A story of love and death, a story of unrequited love, a story of ambition, success and failure? It's all been done before, TANGO, and the fact that you have spent more money than anyone else on a production and have hired the most vibrated soprano in the world makes it no better. It doesn't, mate, it doesn't. Have you listened to the screechy sound which emanates from some of our so-called 'stars'?

Sir, the field is yours. You have the choice of weapons: Dame Joan Sutherland, Dame Kiri Te Kanawa (once slim) or any other fat lady. In my corner I will have a set of lead violinists, a couple of the brassiest people I can find and a copper conductor.

Now that, sir, should be electric.

A friend of mine has recently applied to move to Australia. Under the point-scoring method my mate, a leader of men, scores less points that his wife. She scores more by dint of her being a classically trained Cellist.

I'd wind my neck in on matters of culture if I were you, Dujon, for Australia is its barren wasteland!

Di Stefano · Post by **Di Stefano** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:34 pm

William the White wrote:

Beginners thingy... If i had to name three accessible, wonderful intros to opera I'd go, in order of accessibility... Carmen (Bizet), La Traviata (Verdi), La Boheme (Puccini)...

I would have put Tosca in there rather than Boheme, on the basis that it's just as good but shorter! Carmen, though I love it, does go on a bit.

I'd advise anyone to avoid Butterfly, if tempted on the strength of one good aria. Along with Senza mamma, I'd put O mio babbino from Gianni Schicchi. And for a tenor, E lucevan le stelle from Tosca is top for me.

Now when it comes to choruses, nobody comes close to Verdi. Va pensiero anyone?

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:26 pm

Di Stefano wrote:
I'd advise anyone to avoid Butterfly, if tempted on the strength of one good aria. Along with Senza mamma, I'd put O mio babbino from Gianni Schicchi. And for a tenor, E lucevan le stelle from Tosca is top for me.

Now when it comes to choruses, nobody comes close to Verdi. Va pensiero anyone?

Sissel, my Norwegian nightingale does that beautifully.

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