What. The. Fcuk?

[Bruce Rioja]

Whenever this type of discussion comes up, I just turn the other cheek!

[warthog]

To muddy the water even further, I know a set of twins. One gay, the other not. Both obviously raised under similar conditions.

Not quite sure how that affects the 'born as' or 'upbringing' routes. So what does really decide it?

Psychologists, of which I'm one, have been having the nature-nurture debate for over a century. Somehow I don't think we'll get any definitive answers here.

[TANGODANCER]

Whenever this type of discussion comes up, I just turn the other cheek!

[seanworth]

To muddy the water even further, I know a set of twins. One gay, the other not. Both obviously raised under similar conditions.

Not quite sure how that affects the 'born as' or 'upbringing' routes. So what does really decide it?

Psychologists, of which I'm one, have been having the nature-nurture debate for over a century. Somehow I don't think we'll get any definitive answers here.

So just how old are you?

[jimbo]

To muddy the water even further, I know a set of twins. One gay, the other not. Both obviously raised under similar conditions.

Not quite sure how that affects the 'born as' or 'upbringing' routes. So what does really decide it?

Psychologists, of which I'm one, have been having the nature-nurture debate for over a century. Somehow I don't think we'll get any definitive answers here.

Multi-factoral surely? Whether they are identical twins makes a huge difference with this analysis, whereas the environment will also have SOME influence. It can't be pinned down to one thing only that you can simply 'switch' on or off.

[Montreal Wanderer]

To muddy the water even further, I know a set of twins. One gay, the other not. Both obviously raised under similar conditions.

Not quite sure how that affects the 'born as' or 'upbringing' routes. So what does really decide it?

Psychologists, of which I'm one, have been having the nature-nurture debate for over a century. Somehow I don't think we'll get any definitive answers here.

This was actually answered in an article in the Journal of Irreproducable Results entitled 'the Dead Twin Studies'. A set of identical twins, one of whom had died at birth, were put through a series of tests at seven years old. The living twin outperformed the dead one in all measurable areas proving that environment is far more important than heredity in these matters.

[Worthy4England]

To muddy the water even further, I know a set of twins. One gay, the other not. Both obviously raised under similar conditions.

Not quite sure how that affects the 'born as' or 'upbringing' routes. So what does really decide it?

Psychologists, of which I'm one, have been having the nature-nurture debate for over a century. Somehow I don't think we'll get any definitive answers here.

This was actually answered in an article in the Journal of Irreproducable Results entitled 'the Dead Twin Studies'. A set of identical twins, one of whom had died at birth, were put through a series of tests at seven years old. The living twin outperformed the dead one in all measurable areas proving that environment is far more important than heredity in these matters.

I'd have thought the dead one would have been much better at smelling than the living one?

[Montreal Wanderer]

To muddy the water even further, I know a set of twins. One gay, the other not. Both obviously raised under similar conditions.

Not quite sure how that affects the 'born as' or 'upbringing' routes. So what does really decide it?

Psychologists, of which I'm one, have been having the nature-nurture debate for over a century. Somehow I don't think we'll get any definitive answers here.

This was actually answered in an article in the Journal of Irreproducable Results entitled 'the Dead Twin Studies'. A set of identical twins, one of whom had died at birth, were put through a series of tests at seven years old. The living twin outperformed the dead one in all measurable areas proving that environment is far more important than heredity in these matters.

I'd have thought the dead one would have been much better at smelling than the living one?

The smell test was based on the verb smell in an active rather than a passive sense. However, after seven years ,the dead one neither smelled nor was smelled.

[Bruce Rioja]

I'd have thought the dead one would have been much better at smelling than the living one?

No, the dead one would've definitely smelled worse.

[Worthy4England]

Fair point.

[Prufrock]

In just as much as people can openly choose to be gay these days, surely that right extends to choosing not to? I would have thought the choice lay with the individual, not the Royal College of trick-cyclists.

You don't choose! And you can't *cure* it. This smacks of some mental Nazi experiment. Being gay is not a choice nor a disease. In your lifetime being gay was a crime, and in mine it was recognised as a disease, the fact this is no longer the case is massive progress, stuff like this being allowed sets back movements massively and is SUPREMELY ignorant.

Christ you're a drama queen. Calm down for crying out loud.

Nazi experiment? Get a grip.

It is something I think is important, and I find your position that one shouldn't post one's opinion here, on a discussion forum, an odd one. In a day and age where massive improvements in tolerance towards homosexuality have been made, but one in which gay people are still frightened to come out, where it is still seen as abnormal, and in a situation where the progress made could quite easily be destroyed, I think this is an important issue.

As for Nazi experiment, well pre-Nazi Germany was renowned for being a very sexually liberal place, but once the Nazis took over that all changed. In concentration camps tests were done to try and locate a gay 'gene' in order to cure future generations. I'd therefore say my comment that it smacks of some mental Nazi experiment is on pretty strong ground.

I cannot believe this sort of thing is allowed, and it genuinely worries me.

[superjohnmcginlay]

It'll be reet. Dont worry so much.

[Prufrock]

In just as much as people can openly choose to be gay these days, surely that right extends to choosing not to? I would have thought the choice lay with the individual, not the Royal College of trick-cyclists.

You don't choose! And you can't *cure* it. This smacks of some mental Nazi experiment. Being gay is not a choice nor a disease. In your lifetime being gay was a crime, and in mine it was recognised as a disease, the fact this is no longer the case is massive progress, stuff like this being allowed sets back movements massively and is SUPREMELY ignorant.

Shxt. I've been associating with criminals for years.

Get over yourself Pru. Victoria had been dead nearly forty years before I was born. Two of Bolton's most notorious gays went to the Palais when I did. Next door neighbour's lad (who I've known all his life) is gay, guy across the road is gay, the guy who delivers supplies to me at work is gay, three female friends are lesbians. Do I need more to qualify as a good guy?

Just to put you straight (awful pun, I agree) as long as no-one tells me what to be, I'm fine with it all. Like Hoss says, calm down lad.

As Monty has elaborated out, I was correct factually. And I wasn't trying to get at you for anything you have said or done, but point out homophobia is ingrained in society. Like Monty used to, I used to feel uncomfortable when I saw two gay men kissing. It's an instinctive reaction drilled in by society, and as a wet behind the ears boy from a small northern town, when I first went away to uni I was shocked. Not because I objected, but because i wasn't used to it at all. I have gay friends, several of whom have, and several haven't come out to their parents. There is still a massive stigma that they are abnormal, and that they feel they will be rejected by their famillies for their 'fault'. Your position I have emboldened is a very admirable one, but not shared by all. Members of my familly have joked that if I came home one day and said I was gay I'd be looking for alternative accommodation. Joke or not, if I were gay I'm sure that kind of comment would have a bearing on how easy I found it to be open about my sexuality. Things like this where being gay is talked about as curable, re-enforces the idea that not only is being gay a choice, but that it's a bad one. A responsible society cannot adopt or even passively accept such a viewpoint, or it's propagation.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I should perhaps clarify that it was not a crime to be homosexual - the crime was to have homosexual intercourse or, more specifically, sodomy. And we still say 'silly sod' as a term of contempt (Sillius Soddus to the Romans). Imagine a world where it was okay to be heterosexual, but having heterosexual intercourse was a crime (actually it has been imagined by sci fi writers). That was the world homosexuals lived in when I was young. Along with 'sod' and 'queer', 'homo' was a great insult then although not used in polite society. I was astounded when I arrived on these shores to find that milk was and still is called homo - probably because it was difficult to put homogenized on the packet with big letters.

[Worthy4England]

A responsible society cannot adopt or even passively accept such a viewpoint, or it's propagation.

Wrong.

A society will make up it's own mind regardless of what legislation is in place - the fact that you believe that they might be irresponsible to do so is just your opinion. Soceity can tell you that people are not allowed to discriminate by passing legislation, but all society and life in general is discriminatory, from the minute we're not born equally.

It would be really interesting to see referenda on some of this stuff in a closed ballot situation, where people could vote as they felt, not as "soceity" is conditioning them to respond, (though not cost effective etc.), as the "enlightened" few at Westminster may well not reflect the views of the "masses".

[boltonboris]

I can honestly say I've never come accross a little queer

Coat draped over my shoulder as we speak

[Prufrock]

It'll be reet. Dont worry so much.

Complacency is what worries me though. There is still so much casual homophobia around. As I have said, pre-Nazi Germany was a very relaxed place regarding homosexuality, then in a short space of time, gay men were walking round concentration camps wearing pink triangles and being bullied by other concentration camp inmates. In 2002, Jean Marie Le Pen came very close to becoming president of France, due in no small part to a record low turnout in the first round. His policies are very similar to those of our own BNP. It is not impossible that such a thing could happen in this country, given our apathy, complacency and the fact that many political parties are viewed as having very similar policies, thus fracturing votes. When I was younger I'd sit with a grimace through 'Paki jokes', and sit in awkward silence with my uncle and father whilst the more right wing aspect of my familly talked their politics. As I have grown older and more interested in politics I have felt the need to question such things, and not to sit in complicit silence. I realise many people might find such posts tedious, or may think it is something so obvious it need not be gone into in such lengths, but it is something very important to me, and I make no apologies for that.

[superjohnmcginlay]

I dont see the relevance of the le pen/bnp thing. Was he going to burn all homosexuals or something?

[Prufrock]

A responsible society cannot adopt or even passively accept such a viewpoint, or it's propagation.

Wrong.

A society will make up it's own mind regardless of what legislation is in place - the fact that you believe that they might be irresponsible to do so is just your opinion. Soceity can tell you that people are not allowed to discriminate by passing legislation, but all society and life in general is discriminatory, from the minute we're not born equally.

It would be really interesting to see referenda on some of this stuff in a closed ballot situation, where people could vote as they felt, not as "soceity" is conditioning them to respond, (though not cost effective etc.), as the "enlightened" few at Westminster may well not reflect the views of the "masses".

Responsibilty is not empirically provable, hence is always an opinion. I don't agree that allowing people to express views based only on bigotry and ignorance is responsible. There is a very tight rope to walk regarding the protection of people's freedom from abuse, and people's freedom of expression. This in my mind goes way beyond factoring in that. Similarly to your closed ballot, I would like to see one on people's actual views on immigration, and 'repatriation', and would be similarly unastounded to find the views of the masses differ from he official line. It would be irresponsible in my mind to allow such sentiments an open court.

[TANGODANCER]

It seems to me that people expressing what others supposedly think as a whole, are usually doing it from a public platform based on everone thinking they've been round and questioned the whole of humanity. How many here don't know some homosexual or lesbian friends or aquaintances? Is any "persecution" these people suffer from those they know or live in their vicinity for actually being homosexual, or is it more because they deliberately camp up their preferences and behaviour? Or is it perhaps that the abuse comes from the same factions who complain mindlessly about eveything on the planet, bigotted idiots of lower intellect who need an outlet for channeling anger for their own limitations? Do homosexuals actually suffer as much abuse as a certain local manager who gets it because a football team doesn't win? The Nazi regime ended in 1945, over sixty years ago. I think we've progressed just a little since then. Two lads shared a hug on Oxford Road yesterday morning. The traffic didn't, amazingly, stop.

None of us are revered and put on platforms by everyone. There's always someone who dislikes your views, personality or even appearance maybe. If it ever changes we'll have attained a perfect world where even Gary Megson gets treated with respect. Now that is a long way off yet,I think .