Today I'm angry about.....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

Just a point of order here....I disagree with your synopsis generally, however, being British by definition does not require "loyalty to Britain".

Man born in England to white English parents wins the lottery..."right I'm off to Barbados to live, get me out of this stinking horrible country". He's still British. But not "loyal". However, you may want to define that.

Fairy nuff if you want to split hairs. My point was that technically anybody who is a believer in Islam has a higher supranational community that they themselves associate with and describe being first and foremost.
An Englishman born of Anglo-Saxon parents whether he wants to bugger off to Barbados or not will still (mostly) think of, and describe themselves, as British.
My contention is that most people who would describe themselves as Muslim put that fact before their nationality (whatever that nationality is).
This isn't confined to Britishness either. There are many Arabs who would describe themselves as Muslim rather than say Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqui. Nearly half of Turks describe themselves first and foremost as Muslim, the other half tend towards secularism and define themselves as Turks. It is one of the defining facts of being Muslim that you belong to the Ummah. Any Muslim who doesn't is a very strange Muslim indeed.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Toodle-pip

Toodle-pip!
By Jove, old bean, how very splendid, what what.

Indeed.
Welcome back Spotty by the way. It's good to know that you are back to improve the balance of discussion.

Not sure that everybody will agree with that point either...

[Hoboh]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

Just a point of order here....I disagree with your synopsis generally, however, being British by definition does not require "loyalty to Britain".

Man born in England to white English parents wins the lottery..."right I'm off to Barbados to live, get me out of this stinking horrible country". He's still British. But not "loyal". However, you may want to define that.

Mmmm, I wonder why he finds it 'a stinking horrible country'?

TBF I'd prefer a nice villa in Lanzarote surrounded by a small army to keep uninvited riff raff like you might meet on public transport at arms length.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

Just a point of order here....I disagree with your synopsis generally, however, being British by definition does not require "loyalty to Britain".

Man born in England to white English parents wins the lottery..."right I'm off to Barbados to live, get me out of this stinking horrible country". He's still British. But not "loyal". However, you may want to define that.

Fairy nuff if you want to split hairs. My point was that technically anybody who is a believer in Islam has a higher supranational community that they themselves associate with and describe being first and foremost.
An Englishman born of Anglo-Saxon parents whether he wants to bugger off to Barbados or not will still (mostly) think of, and describe themselves, as British.
My contention is that most people who would describe themselves as Muslim put that fact before their nationality (whatever that nationality is).
This isn't confined to Britishness either. There are many Arabs who would describe themselves as Muslim rather than say Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqui. Nearly half of Turks describe themselves first and foremost as Muslim, the other half tend towards secularism and define themselves as Turks. It is one of the defining facts of being Muslim that you belong to the Ummah. Any Muslim who doesn't is a very strange Muslim indeed.

The trouble is, data consistently doesn't back that up. In fact it shows more Muslim's identify as British than the rest of the population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... ation.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ed-britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 80411.html

Each of those is a poll from different years. The last one referring to the channel 4 survey. Which shows they identify as British but hold some values that are more socially conservative than most Brits (but not all of course).

My experience is that Muslims are more desperate to identify as British than any other group.

[Hoboh]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

Just a point of order here....I disagree with your synopsis generally, however, being British by definition does not require "loyalty to Britain".

Man born in England to white English parents wins the lottery..."right I'm off to Barbados to live, get me out of this stinking horrible country". He's still British. But not "loyal". However, you may want to define that.

Fairy nuff if you want to split hairs. My point was that technically anybody who is a believer in Islam has a higher supranational community that they themselves associate with and describe being first and foremost.
An Englishman born of Anglo-Saxon parents whether he wants to bugger off to Barbados or not will still (mostly) think of, and describe themselves, as British.
My contention is that most people who would describe themselves as Muslim put that fact before their nationality (whatever that nationality is).
This isn't confined to Britishness either. There are many Arabs who would describe themselves as Muslim rather than say Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqui. Nearly half of Turks describe themselves first and foremost as Muslim, the other half tend towards secularism and define themselves as Turks. It is one of the defining facts of being Muslim that you belong to the Ummah. Any Muslim who doesn't is a very strange Muslim indeed.

The trouble is, data consistently doesn't back that up. In fact it shows more Muslim's identify as British than the rest of the population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... ation.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ed-britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 80411.html

Each of those is a poll from different years. The last one referring to the channel 4 survey. Which shows they identify as British but hold some values that are more socially conservative than most Brits (but not all of course).

My experience is that Muslims are more desperate to identify as British than any other group.

My experience is that Indians come across as more British than any other group actually.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?

Seriously, this is the problem. Being British and being Muslim are mutually exclusive. Islam demands that you are loyal to the Ummah. You cannot be loyal to the Ummah and claim to be loyal to Britain, one has to be secondary to the other, and currently most Muslims choose the Ummah.

Just a point of order here....I disagree with your synopsis generally, however, being British by definition does not require "loyalty to Britain".

Man born in England to white English parents wins the lottery..."right I'm off to Barbados to live, get me out of this stinking horrible country". He's still British. But not "loyal". However, you may want to define that.

Fairy nuff if you want to split hairs. My point was that technically anybody who is a believer in Islam has a higher supranational community that they themselves associate with and describe being first and foremost.
An Englishman born of Anglo-Saxon parents whether he wants to bugger off to Barbados or not will still (mostly) think of, and describe themselves, as British.
My contention is that most people who would describe themselves as Muslim put that fact before their nationality (whatever that nationality is).
This isn't confined to Britishness either. There are many Arabs who would describe themselves as Muslim rather than say Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqui. Nearly half of Turks describe themselves first and foremost as Muslim, the other half tend towards secularism and define themselves as Turks. It is one of the defining facts of being Muslim that you belong to the Ummah. Any Muslim who doesn't is a very strange Muslim indeed.

The trouble is, data consistently doesn't back that up. In fact it shows more Muslim's identify as British than the rest of the population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... ation.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ed-britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 80411.html

Each of those is a poll from different years. The last one referring to the channel 4 survey. Which shows they identify as British but hold some values that are more socially conservative than most Brits (but not all of course).

My experience is that Muslims are more desperate to identify as British than any other group.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree with this. The poll you quote did not ask about Islam: it started out by selecting Muslims to complete the poll. It's like seeking out Vegans and then asking questions about vegetarianism. You might find that a very high percentage (more than in the non Vegan population) strongly identify with vegetarianism. The question that wasn't posed however being do you classify yourself as a Vegan or a Vegetarian. It would be a very strange Vegan that thinks of themselves/acts like/behaves as if they were Vegetarian rather than Vegan. I still submit that it would be a very strange Muslim who thinks of themself/acts like/behaves as if they were British rather than Muslim.

[TANGODANCER]

The trouble is, data consistently doesn't back that up. In fact it shows more Muslim's identify as British than the rest of the population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... ation.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ed-britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 80411.html

Each of those is a poll from different years. The last one referring to the channel 4 survey. Which shows they identify as British but hold some values that are more socially conservative than most Brits (but not all of course).

My experience is that Muslims are more desperate to identify as British than any other group.
[/quote]

A point worth consideration: Being British and stating it has probably more to do with residing in Britain as a citizen, and receiving all the benefits of living here, is a highly desirable situation, than watching daffodils grow in the Lake District, strutting about in a Manchester United Shirt or singing God Save the Queen. There are no rules on religion and Mosqes abound in almost every town . It's why half the world (okay, slight exageration) is heading hear like pilgrims flocking to Santiago de Compostela in Spain and why you can't get near a hospital appointment or get on a train. We're a bit stretched right now and it isn't for our climate or being able to wear Union Jack underpants...It's the place to be whover you are. Just thought I'd mention that.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^LLS, not sure I agree there - the polls (multiple over several years) were designed to see how Muslims identify themselves compared to non-Muslims in British society. But also there is not the homogeneity within the Muslim population or indeed the wider non-Muslim population that you seem to think there is. At least not in my experience.

[Prufrock]

Dude you're wasting your time.

[BWFC_Insane]

The trouble is, data consistently doesn't back that up. In fact it shows more Muslim's identify as British than the rest of the population.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... ation.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ed-britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 80411.html

Each of those is a poll from different years. The last one referring to the channel 4 survey. Which shows they identify as British but hold some values that are more socially conservative than most Brits (but not all of course).

My experience is that Muslims are more desperate to identify as British than any other group.

A point worth consideration: Being British and stating it has probably more to do with residing in Britain as a citizen, and receiving all the benefits of living here, is a highly desirable situation, than watching daffodils grow in the Lake District, strutting about in a Manchester United Shirt or singing God Save the Queen. There are no rules on religion and Mosqes abound in almost every town . It's why half the world (okay, slight exageration) is heading hear like pilgrims flocking to Santiago de Compostela in Spain and why you can't get near a hospital appointment or get on a train. We're a bit stretched right now and it isn't for our climate or being able to wear Union Jack underpants...It's the place to be whover you are. Just thought I'd mention that.
[/quote]

The majority of Muslims we're talking about were born here and lived here all their lives.

And are British by definition.

[Bruce Rioja]

BBC News. Big Ben: You will want to put your sound on for this.
Big Ben’s last bongs before falling silent until renovations are complete in 2021. It will still sound on important occasions.

No I won't, its just a 4ucking clock. Why so much fuss?

[Prufrock]

It's utterly incomprehensible to me. Can't even begin to get it.

[BWFC_Insane]

BBC News. Big Ben: You will want to put your sound on for this.
Big Ben’s last bongs before falling silent until renovations are complete in 2021. It will still sound on important occasions.

No I won't, its just a 4ucking clock. Why so much fuss?

Clearly, not identifying with Big Ben means you are an infidel and not really British.....

[Bruce Rioja]

BBC News. Big Ben: You will want to put your sound on for this.
Big Ben’s last bongs before falling silent until renovations are complete in 2021. It will still sound on important occasions.

No I won't, its just a 4ucking clock. Why so much fuss?

Clearly, not identifying with Big Ben means you are an infidel and not really British.....

Has anyone trotted out the headline 'Bell Ends' yet?

[Hoboh]

BBC News. Big Ben: You will want to put your sound on for this.
Big Ben’s last bongs before falling silent until renovations are complete in 2021. It will still sound on important occasions.

No I won't, its just a 4ucking clock. Why so much fuss?

Clearly, not identifying with Big Ben means you are an infidel and not really British.....
[/quote

Yeah, why not rip down the houses of Parliament, evict the Queen and turn Buck Palace into a Kremlin type place, just in case Corbyn and his boss old MacDonald get elected, Monumental disasters could form the guard.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah, why not rip down the houses of Parliament, evict the Queen and turn Buck Palace into a Kremlin type place, just in case Corbyn and his boss old MacDonald get elected, Monumental disasters could form the guard.

I mean mine was a joke. But anyhow, I'd gladly get rid of the queen and the rest of the hangers on. Waste of tax payers money. They irritate me greatly. Think what we could do with all that money and land.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Yeah, why not rip down the houses of Parliament, evict the Queen and turn Buck Palace into a Kremlin type place, just in case Corbyn and his boss old MacDonald get elected, Monumental disasters could form the guard.

I mean mine was a joke. But anyhow, I'd gladly get rid of the queen and the rest of the hangers on. Waste of tax payers money. They irritate me greatly. Think what we could do with all that money and land.

Sell it off cheap and fund tax cuts for the 1%

[Lord Kangana]

Dude you're wasting your time.

Close the forum!

[TANGODANCER]

I mean mine was a joke. But anyhow, I'd gladly get rid of the queen and the rest of the hangers on. Waste of tax payers money. They irritate me greatly. Think what we could do with all that money and land.

Whilst sharing your views on land and hangers-on, the Queen probably indirectly contributes more to the inland revenue via tourism then a lot of our industries do in taxes.

[TANGODANCER]

Has anyone trotted out the headline 'Bell Ends' yet?

Whilst loving the sound of church bells, that definitely gave me a laugh. Ta..