Today I'm angry about.....

[BWFC_Insane]

An argument that can't even take place is between someone who believes in God and someone who doesn't. There isn't even a fence to sit on.

I think you'll find me and several million others sat on the very fence of agnosticism, Tango.

I think you might find that was my point Bruce...

I agree that we can't agree Tango. But we can agree that we are not threatening each other with death.

Bruce, the fence of agnosticism is not a point of view - it's a failure to come to a point of view. But, again, we can agree that we are not threatening to kill each other over your lack of a point of view.

Enoch. I appreciate your sense of justice and balance in the world. Unfortunately I am tainted by experience.

BWFCi. We fail to understand each other on a visceral level. Just because all Rednecks are white doesn't make all whites abhorrent, but all Rednecks can remain abhorrent. What discerns a 'redneck' is what they think, what discerns a white is what they are born as. Whites aren't born rednecks! Nobody is born Muslim.

Monty. I don't have time, personally, for Islam to 'grow up'.
I also think it is a flawed comparison. Just because Christianity has 'mellowed' (has it?) doesn't mean Islam will, or can. Islam states it is a direct message from God. Interpretations do occur, but they are severely limited in their scope due the injunction that the Koran was God given. I know it's not; many people who have studied it know it's not; but no Muslim will ever admit it is not: If they did they wouldn't be Muslim.

Harry: I've posted the incident once before on here, I can't find it (Monty might have the link). I'll pm the details.

Nobody is born a Christian either. I don't think the distinction matters. If you say that being a muslim makes you any more likely to be violent than being a Christian or a Jew then I fundamentally and vehemently disagree. I know many muslims who do not think that violence is a good thing. Like I say before some "Christians" in places like Georgia and Alabama think that the Bible is the word of god and that they should beat their children because the word of god tells them its a good thing to do. In other Christian communities this is completely and utterly rejected. But you try and tell those fundamental redneck Christians that....

If you say that many Muslim states have appalling and barbaric laws and control and manipulate their populations then I agree. Ultimately there are white English (I assume "Christians) in neo nazi groups plotting to kill MPs. What distinguishes them from you or I? How they think. What distinguishes a Muslim who celebrates 9/11 from my former neighbours who were in tears the day after........

[Lost Leopard Spot]

An argument that can't even take place is between someone who believes in God and someone who doesn't. There isn't even a fence to sit on.

I think you'll find me and several million others sat on the very fence of agnosticism, Tango.

I think you might find that was my point Bruce...

I agree that we can't agree Tango. But we can agree that we are not threatening each other with death.

Bruce, the fence of agnosticism is not a point of view - it's a failure to come to a point of view. But, again, we can agree that we are not threatening to kill each other over your lack of a point of view.

Enoch. I appreciate your sense of justice and balance in the world. Unfortunately I am tainted by experience.

BWFCi. We fail to understand each other on a visceral level. Just because all Rednecks are white doesn't make all whites abhorrent, but all Rednecks can remain abhorrent. What discerns a 'redneck' is what they think, what discerns a white is what they are born as. Whites aren't born rednecks! Nobody is born Muslim.

Monty. I don't have time, personally, for Islam to 'grow up'.
I also think it is a flawed comparison. Just because Christianity has 'mellowed' (has it?) doesn't mean Islam will, or can. Islam states it is a direct message from God. Interpretations do occur, but they are severely limited in their scope due the injunction that the Koran was God given. I know it's not; many people who have studied it know it's not; but no Muslim will ever admit it is not: If they did they wouldn't be Muslim.

Harry: I've posted the incident once before on here, I can't find it (Monty might have the link). I'll pm the details.

Nobody is born a Christian either. I don't think the distinction matters. If you say that being a muslim makes you any more likely to be violent than being a Christian or a Jew then I fundamentally and vehemently disagree. I know many muslims who do not think that violence is a good thing. Like I say before some "Christians" in places like Georgia and Alabama think that the Bible is the word of god and that they should beat their children because the word of god tells them its a good thing to do. In other Christian communities this is completely and utterly rejected. But you try and tell those fundamental redneck Christians that....

If you say that many Muslim states have appalling and barbaric laws and control and manipulate their populations then I agree. Ultimately there are white English (I assume "Christians) in neo nazi groups plotting to kill MPs. What distinguishes them from you or I? How they think. What distinguishes a Muslim who celebrates 9/11 from my former neighbours who were in tears the day after........

As I say, and will continue to say. If any 'philosophy' condemns me to death because I don't agree with that philosophy then I will abhor that philosophy and the members who cling to it.
If Tories condemn me to death for not being Tory, I'd abhor them.
If KukluxKlan members condemn me to death for not being a KukluxKlan member then I abhore them.

I don't give a toss about your neighbours. They belong to a philosophy that argues I should be killed because I'm not one of them.... Do you not see this...
Obviously not.
Whether or not your neighbours have the gumption to follow through on their philosophical outcomes is neither here nor there. That's like saying "oh jeez, ol'Red hasn't actually strung up no niggers"

[BWFC_Insane]

An argument that can't even take place is between someone who believes in God and someone who doesn't. There isn't even a fence to sit on.

I think you'll find me and several million others sat on the very fence of agnosticism, Tango.

I think you might find that was my point Bruce...

I agree that we can't agree Tango. But we can agree that we are not threatening each other with death.

Bruce, the fence of agnosticism is not a point of view - it's a failure to come to a point of view. But, again, we can agree that we are not threatening to kill each other over your lack of a point of view.

Enoch. I appreciate your sense of justice and balance in the world. Unfortunately I am tainted by experience.

BWFCi. We fail to understand each other on a visceral level. Just because all Rednecks are white doesn't make all whites abhorrent, but all Rednecks can remain abhorrent. What discerns a 'redneck' is what they think, what discerns a white is what they are born as. Whites aren't born rednecks! Nobody is born Muslim.

Monty. I don't have time, personally, for Islam to 'grow up'.
I also think it is a flawed comparison. Just because Christianity has 'mellowed' (has it?) doesn't mean Islam will, or can. Islam states it is a direct message from God. Interpretations do occur, but they are severely limited in their scope due the injunction that the Koran was God given. I know it's not; many people who have studied it know it's not; but no Muslim will ever admit it is not: If they did they wouldn't be Muslim.

Harry: I've posted the incident once before on here, I can't find it (Monty might have the link). I'll pm the details.

Nobody is born a Christian either. I don't think the distinction matters. If you say that being a muslim makes you any more likely to be violent than being a Christian or a Jew then I fundamentally and vehemently disagree. I know many muslims who do not think that violence is a good thing. Like I say before some "Christians" in places like Georgia and Alabama think that the Bible is the word of god and that they should beat their children because the word of god tells them its a good thing to do. In other Christian communities this is completely and utterly rejected. But you try and tell those fundamental redneck Christians that....

If you say that many Muslim states have appalling and barbaric laws and control and manipulate their populations then I agree. Ultimately there are white English (I assume "Christians) in neo nazi groups plotting to kill MPs. What distinguishes them from you or I? How they think. What distinguishes a Muslim who celebrates 9/11 from my former neighbours who were in tears the day after........

As I say, and will continue to say. If any 'philosophy' condemns me to death because I don't agree with that philosophy then I will abhor that philosophy and the members who cling to it.
If Tories condemn me to death for not being Tory, I'd abhor them.
If KukluxKlan members condemn me to death for not being a KukluxKlan member then I abhore them.

I don't give a toss about your neighbours. They belong to a philosophy that argues I should be killed because I'm not one of them.... Do you not see this...
Obviously not.
Whether or not your neighbours have the gumption to follow through on their philosophical outcomes is neither here nor there. That's like saying "oh jeez, ol'Red hasn't actually strung up no niggers"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/is ... 76246.html

The Bible is full of passages that you could use to justify violence and genocide. Christ supposedly god wiped out entire cities for their "sin". If you WANT to interpret versions of it that way.

I'm no religious person. I've listened to a lot of bullshit. I've learned over a great many years that whether people are Muslim, black, white, Christian or blue and orange - they are essentially all the same. Just people. Some good some bad. Some lucky, some not. If you want to pretend that your faith allows you to murder people you will. If you don't have a faith you'll find some other excuse. If you're from a poor part of the world your leaders will find ways to manipulate you against the "oppressors". It has little to do with Islam. Evil wicked people find causes and recruit people to those causes. Its been that way forever.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

An argument that can't even take place is between someone who believes in God and someone who doesn't. There isn't even a fence to sit on.

I think you'll find me and several million others sat on the very fence of agnosticism, Tango.

I think you might find that was my point Bruce...

I agree that we can't agree Tango. But we can agree that we are not threatening each other with death.

Bruce, the fence of agnosticism is not a point of view - it's a failure to come to a point of view. But, again, we can agree that we are not threatening to kill each other over your lack of a point of view.

Enoch. I appreciate your sense of justice and balance in the world. Unfortunately I am tainted by experience.

BWFCi. We fail to understand each other on a visceral level. Just because all Rednecks are white doesn't make all whites abhorrent, but all Rednecks can remain abhorrent. What discerns a 'redneck' is what they think, what discerns a white is what they are born as. Whites aren't born rednecks! Nobody is born Muslim.

Monty. I don't have time, personally, for Islam to 'grow up'.
I also think it is a flawed comparison. Just because Christianity has 'mellowed' (has it?) doesn't mean Islam will, or can. Islam states it is a direct message from God. Interpretations do occur, but they are severely limited in their scope due the injunction that the Koran was God given. I know it's not; many people who have studied it know it's not; but no Muslim will ever admit it is not: If they did they wouldn't be Muslim.

Harry: I've posted the incident once before on here, I can't find it (Monty might have the link). I'll pm the details.

Nobody is born a Christian either. I don't think the distinction matters. If you say that being a muslim makes you any more likely to be violent than being a Christian or a Jew then I fundamentally and vehemently disagree. I know many muslims who do not think that violence is a good thing. Like I say before some "Christians" in places like Georgia and Alabama think that the Bible is the word of god and that they should beat their children because the word of god tells them its a good thing to do. In other Christian communities this is completely and utterly rejected. But you try and tell those fundamental redneck Christians that....

If you say that many Muslim states have appalling and barbaric laws and control and manipulate their populations then I agree. Ultimately there are white English (I assume "Christians) in neo nazi groups plotting to kill MPs. What distinguishes them from you or I? How they think. What distinguishes a Muslim who celebrates 9/11 from my former neighbours who were in tears the day after........

As I say, and will continue to say. If any 'philosophy' condemns me to death because I don't agree with that philosophy then I will abhor that philosophy and the members who cling to it.
If Tories condemn me to death for not being Tory, I'd abhor them.
If KukluxKlan members condemn me to death for not being a KukluxKlan member then I abhore them.

I don't give a toss about your neighbours. They belong to a philosophy that argues I should be killed because I'm not one of them.... Do you not see this...
Obviously not.
Whether or not your neighbours have the gumption to follow through on their philosophical outcomes is neither here nor there. That's like saying "oh jeez, ol'Red hasn't actually strung up no niggers"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/is ... 76246.html

The Bible is full of passages that you could use to justify violence and genocide. Christ supposedly god wiped out entire cities for their "sin". If you WANT to interpret versions of it that way.

I'm no religious person. I've listened to a lot of bullshit. I've learned over a great many years that whether people are Muslim, black, white, Christian or blue and orange - they are essentially all the same. Just people. Some good some bad. Some lucky, some not. If you want to pretend that your faith allows you to murder people you will. If you don't have a faith you'll find some other excuse. If you're from a poor part of the world your leaders will find ways to manipulate you against the "oppressors". It has little to do with Islam. Evil wicked people find causes and recruit people to those causes. Its been that way forever.

Unfortunately pal, you haven't been following the current curriculum.
I have no truck with any fxcking religionist who wants to murder me!!!!!
Try looking up who it is that wants to murder you, and why!
Now, if you want to go blindfold into the future thinking all humans are sweetness and light, good luck. If you, not being Muslim, for example, want to live on average, longer than the norm, then AVOID MUSLIMS. It's not rocket science.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Oh, and you failed to mention the Sultan of Brunei wanting to throw homosexuals from high buildings.... Oops, that was Islamic State. Sorry. The Muslim Sultan wants to stone them to death.
If you have a bit of a lisp, and still live with yout mum, which is entirely possible, I'd avoid any holidays to Brunei.
Or Saudi Arabia. Or Pakistan. Or ....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I wonder if your neighbours will be weeping about that....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm still waiting for the story about when a Catholic tried to murder BWFCi for not being a Catholic...
Come on, spit it out...

[TANGODANCER]

I'm still waiting for the story about when a Catholic tried to murder BWFCi for not being a Catholic...Come on, spit it out...

I've been waiting eagerly all day for that.....is it coming?

[TANGODANCER]

The Bible is full of passages that you could use to justify violence and genocide. Christ supposedly god wiped out entire cities for their "sin". If you WANT to interpret versions of it that way.
I'm no religious person.

There's a thing. Strange isn't it, that people who don't believe in God are always so conversant with the Bible. Odd that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The Bible is full of passages that you could use to justify violence and genocide. Christ supposedly god wiped out entire cities for their "sin". If you WANT to interpret versions of it that way.
I'm no religious person.

There's a thing. Strange isn't it, that people who don't believe in God are always so conversant with the Bible. Odd that.

Well, to be truthful Tango, and I understand your point to a certain extent, but you must admit that those of us who are truly atheist have studied this stuff.

However, when I state "I'm no religious person" I do think that there is a difference with when Insano declares "I'm no religious person".
A difference of lassitude, laxitude, and exactitude.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm still waiting for the story about when a Catholic tried to murder BWFCi for not being a Catholic...Come on, spit it out...

I've been waiting eagerly all day for that.....is it coming?

...and still we await...

[TANGODANCER]

The Bible is full of passages that you could use to justify violence and genocide. Christ supposedly god wiped out entire cities for their "sin". If you WANT to interpret versions of it that way.
I'm no religious person.

There's a thing. Strange isn't it, that people who don't believe in God are always so conversant with the Bible. Odd that.

Well, to be truthful Tango, and I understand your point to a certain extent, but you must admit that those of us who are truly atheist have studied this stuff.

However, when I state "I'm no religious person" I do think that there is a difference with when Insano declares "I'm no religious person".A difference of lassitude, laxitude, and exactitude.

I was being a bit facetious Spots...

[TANGODANCER]

I'm still waiting for the story about when a Catholic tried to murder BWFCi for not being a Catholic...Come on, spit it out...

I've been waiting eagerly all day for that.....is it coming?

...and still we await...

And wait....I was really looking forward to the story....

[Enoch]

Strange isn't it, that people who know nowt are always so conversant with Google. Odd that.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Unfortunately pal, you haven't been following the current curriculum.
I have no truck with any fxcking religionist who wants to murder me!!!!!
Try looking up who it is that wants to murder you, and why!
Now, if you want to go blindfold into the future thinking all humans are sweetness and light, good luck. If you, not being Muslim, for example, want to live on average, longer than the norm, then AVOID MUSLIMS. It's not rocket science.

I am a bit confused. I am unaware that Muslim philosophy, or the Koran in particular, tells Muslims to kill non-Muslims. It is certain individuals who may declare a Jihad against another group or country. It was certain individuals who announced the Caliphate. It is certain individuals who resurrect archaic parts of Sharia law. In my view it is wrong to make a blanket condemnation of all Muslims for these individuals (and Spotty knows my opinion here). Similarly the Ku Klux Klan did (and does) things in the name of religion, but we should not condemn all Americans for the Klan. We should not blame all Americans for the White Supremacists, who also quote the word of God to justify their views. However, it is their interpretation of the word of God. If you asked God, She might have a different interpretation. Similarly I do not consider all English people idiotic simply because of May, Corbyn, et al.

[Editorial note] I do recognize Islam considers apostasy a great crime - but that would be Muslims killing (possibly former) Muslims, not non-Muslims whom they are encouraged to convert.

[TANGODANCER]

If you asked God, She might have a different interpretation.

Noted Monty..

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Unfortunately pal, you haven't been following the current curriculum.
I have no truck with any fxcking religionist who wants to murder me!!!!!
Try looking up who it is that wants to murder you, and why!
Now, if you want to go blindfold into the future thinking all humans are sweetness and light, good luck. If you, not being Muslim, for example, want to live on average, longer than the norm, then AVOID MUSLIMS. It's not rocket science.

I am a bit confused. I am unaware that Muslim philosophy, or the Koran in particular, tells Muslims to kill non-Muslims. It is certain individuals who may declare a Jihad against another group or country. It was certain individuals who announced the Caliphate. It is certain individuals who resurrect archaic parts of Sharia law. In my view it is wrong to make a blanket condemnation of all Muslims for these individuals (and Spotty knows my opinion here). Similarly the Ku Klux Klan did (and does) things in the name of religion, but we should not condemn all Americans for the Klan. We should not blame all Americans for the White Supremacists, who also quote the word of God to justify their views. However, it is their interpretation of the word of God. If you asked God, She might have a different interpretation. Similarly I do not consider all English people idiotic simply because of May, Corbyn, et al.

[Editorial note] I do recognize Islam considers apostasy a great crime - but that would be Muslims killing (possibly former) Muslims, not non-Muslims whom they are encouraged to convert.

Having read the Koran, I can quite confidently state that a number of Suras do encourage the elimination of the kuffar.
There are also Suras that talk about merely taxing the people of the book (after having slaughtered the truly infidel).

With respect, Monty, your best hope in this argument is that an Islamic scholar agrees with you being a taxable subject in the Ummah after the Ummat al-mumunim has conquered the Dar-al-Harb through jihad.
That is, to me, quite disturbing. It is the equivalent of being allowed to live after being transported from Africa by a southern plantation owner: well thank you very much mamsahib! [sic].

I'm not only kuffar. I'm adamantly kuffar. It doesn't sit well with Muslims.

And to be brutally honest, this conversation is irrelevant because Islamic scholars only partake in the interpretation of classical Arabic. Coz that's what God speaks...

If I really wanted to stir a hornet's nest I would only need to write one sentence in Arabic. I'll leave it up to your imagination but it would involve one individual, the lack of alayhi as-salam and an injunction to do something. Just watch how peaceful the ummah would be at that point! Sticks and stones are not the only things in Islam that leads to death. Just ask Salman Rushdie what he thinks...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Unfortunately pal, you haven't been following the current curriculum.
I have no truck with any fxcking religionist who wants to murder me!!!!!
Try looking up who it is that wants to murder you, and why!
Now, if you want to go blindfold into the future thinking all humans are sweetness and light, good luck. If you, not being Muslim, for example, want to live on average, longer than the norm, then AVOID MUSLIMS. It's not rocket science.

I am a bit confused. I am unaware that Muslim philosophy, or the Koran in particular, tells Muslims to kill non-Muslims. It is certain individuals who may declare a Jihad against another group or country. It was certain individuals who announced the Caliphate. It is certain individuals who resurrect archaic parts of Sharia law. In my view it is wrong to make a blanket condemnation of all Muslims for these individuals (and Spotty knows my opinion here). Similarly the Ku Klux Klan did (and does) things in the name of religion, but we should not condemn all Americans for the Klan. We should not blame all Americans for the White Supremacists, who also quote the word of God to justify their views. However, it is their interpretation of the word of God. If you asked God, She might have a different interpretation. Similarly I do not consider all English people idiotic simply because of May, Corbyn, et al.

[Editorial note] I do recognize Islam considers apostasy a great crime - but that would be Muslims killing (possibly former) Muslims, not non-Muslims whom they are encouraged to convert.

Having read the Koran, I can quite confidently state that a number of Suras do encourage the elimination of the kuffar.
There are also Suras that talk about merely taxing the people of the book (after having slaughtered the truly infidel).

With respect, Monty, your best hope in this argument is that an Islamic scholar agrees with you being a taxable subject in the Ummah after the Ummat al-mumunim has conquered the Dar-al-Harb through jihad.
That is, to me, quite disturbing. It is the equivalent of being allowed to live after being transported from Africa by a southern plantation owner: well thank you very much mamsahib! [sic].

I'm not only kuffar. I'm adamantly kuffar. It doesn't sit well with Muslims.

And to be brutally honest, this conversation is irrelevant because Islamic scholars only partake in the interpretation of classical Arabic. Coz that's what God speaks...

If I really wanted to stir a hornet's nest I would only need to write one sentence in Arabic. I'll leave it up to your imagination but it would involve one individual, the lack of alayhi as-salam and an injunction to do something. Just watch how peaceful the ummah would be at that point! Sticks and stones are not the only things in Islam that leads to death. Just ask Salman Rushdie what he thinks...

And what is more annoying, we are talking like this is of academic interest only...
Over a thousand people this week have been slaughtered for not being Muslim (or not being Muslim enough).
Do you not get this? It's ongoing and relentless...

[TANGODANCER]

I'm still never sure why "interpretations" of the Quran (Koran) are constantly used to justify acts that are decidedly against its basics. This, in proportion rarely happens with the Bible. An old and well worn chestnut granted, but it's so convenient to quote scripture and wrangle it around to justify acts that are so very obviously about greed, wealth and power and nothing about deities, that they are the very contra of "Love they neighbour, What doth it profit a man..etc" that are the purely earthy interpretations of something decidedly heavenly? Neither the Quran or the Bible are solely about Aramaic language, the middle east or even Christianity (which, as has been stated was in evidence many years before Islam) or are confined to the deserts, camels and palm trees, but worldwide (along with all other faiths) and translated into every dialect under the sun.
In a religion so well steeped in antiquity, what place have bombs and rocket launchers amongst it all and where is the peaceful religion claim? Hipocricy seems to be a relevant part though? .

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm still never sure why "interpretations" of the Quran (Koran) are constantly used to justify acts that are decidedly against its basics. This, in proportion rarely happens with the Bible. An old and well worn chestnut granted, but it's so convenient to quote scripture and wrangle it around to justify acts that are so very obviously about greed, wealth and power and nothing about deities, that they are the very contra of "Love they neighbour, What doth it profit a man..etc" that are the purely earthy interpretations of something decidedly heavenly? Neither the Quran or the Bible are solely about Aramaic language, the middle east or even Christianity (which, as has been stated was in evidence many years before Islam) or are confined to the deserts, camels and palm trees, but worldwide (along with all other faiths) and translated into every dialect under the sun.
In a religion so well steeped in antiquity, what place have bombs and rocket launchers amongst it all and where is the peaceful religion claim? Hipocricy seems to be a relevant part though? .

I shall, through gritted teeth, tell you that the Bible and the Koran, although rooted through the monotheistic Hebrew culture (the Torah), are completely different.
The Torah and Bible are syncretic, the Quran isn't. When you say that interpretations are against its basics you are wrong. The interpretations are basic and unavoidable.