Today I'm angry about.....

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Hoboh
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Hoboh » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:41 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:45 pm
On the day the U.K. records the highest COVID 19 daily death toll in Europe anywhere, on record, we have a press conference where the Health Secretary thinks that the PMs health is the headline. Same with major sections of the press. When Italy had 900 deaths a day we covered it as a disaster. It’s happening in the U.K. now in even greater numbers and our press and government try to pretend it’s not happening. Nurses don’t have PPE and guidelines are changes without any evidence to try and cover up the lack of planning.

It’s ridiculous to the point of scandal. And much of this could have been avoided if we’d spent the first week in March locking down and the weeks before it stocking up our medical supplies.




Not bad for someone who said in reply to me on March 10th we couldn't lock down and stop travel because it would do no good, still carry on.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:28 am

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:41 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:45 pm
On the day the U.K. records the highest COVID 19 daily death toll in Europe anywhere, on record, we have a press conference where the Health Secretary thinks that the PMs health is the headline. Same with major sections of the press. When Italy had 900 deaths a day we covered it as a disaster. It’s happening in the U.K. now in even greater numbers and our press and government try to pretend it’s not happening. Nurses don’t have PPE and guidelines are changes without any evidence to try and cover up the lack of planning.

It’s ridiculous to the point of scandal. And much of this could have been avoided if we’d spent the first week in March locking down and the weeks before it stocking up our medical supplies.




Not bad for someone who said in reply to me on March 10th we couldn't lock down and stop travel because it would do no good, still carry on.
It wouldn’t. It was already here. You couldn’t shut down international travel to point of stopping it getting here.

What we needed to do was slow it’s spread here much earlier. As it stands we’ve put ourselves exactly where Italy were when our news was reporting theirs as a national tragedy, we are there, the temporary morgues, the lot. Except our healthcare workers on the front line don’t have the same level of equipment the Italians managed to provide theirs.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by malcd1 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm

There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Hoboh » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:27 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
Agreed, no country in the world had prepared for this in terms of stockpiles of PPE and ventilators. What is the way Out? A vaccine, other than that I wouldn't hazard a guess although I will admit to losing an awful lot of faith in some 'expert's' seems like common sense is not a valid qualification in some cases, only their version of science and number crunching.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
I know right. If only we’d had some sort of early warning system about what might be coming?

Italy were in a crisis before they knew it. And still seemingly managed to in majority of cases issue full PPE...far more comprehensive than ours. And went into a strict lockdown. Germany managed to scale up their labs to testing in the space of a week.

We had warnings from previous directors of PH that we weren’t doing the things required. Now it turns out we actually weren’t and should have listened to those experts - the ones free from politics. Instead we let crank behavioural scientists send us down the wrong path because our government were too scared of upsetting the economy.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:32 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:27 pm
malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
Agreed, no country in the world had prepared for this in terms of stockpiles of PPE and ventilators. What is the way Out? A vaccine, other than that I wouldn't hazard a guess although I will admit to losing an awful lot of faith in some 'expert's' seems like common sense is not a valid qualification in some cases, only their version of science and number crunching.
If a vaccine is even viable. Depends how long immunity lasts to this thing. If a few months (as per other coronaviruses) then vaccines may not even be very effective. And the same problem exists with any notion of very slow and controlled herd immunity. If immunity is not longer term then that won’t work either.

The problem is that nobody, has an exit strategy because in reality one doesn’t exist. The only model is in China and they had very extensive local lockdowns and huge testing and contact tracking. And such a model to get out is not likely to last for ever as eventually cases will spike again.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by dave the minion » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:13 pm

It never ceases to amaze and astound me the level of dirt throwing and point scoring people resort to in a crisis. As has been said, maybe things could have been done differently, maybe things could have been done better and maybe, just maybe countries could have been more prepared.

However.....

This is something that is unprecedented in recent times. The level of international travel that was occurring prior to lockdown meant the virus had a far greater propensity to spread than it would have done previously. No country in the world was prepared for it, and whilst each country has dealt with it slightly differently, this is all on the back of local expert advice. No country has the right answer, but I do believe they are all doing their best in what are horrific circumstances.

Why can't people just accept this and go along with it and try to make it work?? If expert A's advice is different from Expert B's - who the hell are we to know which is the right path to choose?

What pees me off is when you get the opposition criticising the governments response - just for the sake of it. Similar to criticisms in this thread - why can't people just accept that everyone is doing their best? I don't give a shiny shite whether you are labour, conservative or Jedi, the government are in a hell of a position here and I for one think they are handling it as well as any other government could.

In times like this its important we all get behind the national effort to beat this thing - however that might be. Having a baseless pop isn't going to help. Going against advice cos people know "better" isn't going to help. I'm pretty sure Boris and his cronies didn't contract the virus on purpose, so lets assume that their actions were best intended for the greater good shall we, rather than having a different opinion for the sake of it
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Hoboh » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:56 pm

dave the minion wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:13 pm
It never ceases to amaze and astound me the level of dirt throwing and point scoring people resort to in a crisis. As has been said, maybe things could have been done differently, maybe things could have been done better and maybe, just maybe countries could have been more prepared.

However.....

This is something that is unprecedented in recent times. The level of international travel that was occurring prior to lockdown meant the virus had a far greater propensity to spread than it would have done previously. No country in the world was prepared for it, and whilst each country has dealt with it slightly differently, this is all on the back of local expert advice. No country has the right answer, but I do believe they are all doing their best in what are horrific circumstances.

Why can't people just accept this and go along with it and try to make it work?? If expert A's advice is different from Expert B's - who the hell are we to know which is the right path to choose?

What pees me off is when you get the opposition criticising the governments response - just for the sake of it. Similar to criticisms in this thread - why can't people just accept that everyone is doing their best? I don't give a shiny shite whether you are labour, conservative or Jedi, the government are in a hell of a position here and I for one think they are handling it as well as any other government could.

In times like this its important we all get behind the national effort to beat this thing - however that might be. Having a baseless pop isn't going to help. Going against advice cos people know "better" isn't going to help. I'm pretty sure Boris and his cronies didn't contract the virus on purpose, so lets assume that their actions were best intended for the greater good shall we, rather than having a different opinion for the sake of it
Again, no descent from me, the vast majority of people are taking this lock down serious all be it with the odd mistakes but certain groups and I saw this last night on the way to work make you wonder which planet some parents are living on.
On a personal note I hope all and their nearest and dearest come through this unscathed.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:51 pm

dave the minion wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:13 pm
It never ceases to amaze and astound me the level of dirt throwing and point scoring people resort to in a crisis. As has been said, maybe things could have been done differently, maybe things could have been done better and maybe, just maybe countries could have been more prepared.

However.....

This is something that is unprecedented in recent times. The level of international travel that was occurring prior to lockdown meant the virus had a far greater propensity to spread than it would have done previously. No country in the world was prepared for it, and whilst each country has dealt with it slightly differently, this is all on the back of local expert advice. No country has the right answer, but I do believe they are all doing their best in what are horrific circumstances.

Why can't people just accept this and go along with it and try to make it work?? If expert A's advice is different from Expert B's - who the hell are we to know which is the right path to choose?

What pees me off is when you get the opposition criticising the governments response - just for the sake of it. Similar to criticisms in this thread - why can't people just accept that everyone is doing their best? I don't give a shiny shite whether you are labour, conservative or Jedi, the government are in a hell of a position here and I for one think they are handling it as well as any other government could.

In times like this its important we all get behind the national effort to beat this thing - however that might be. Having a baseless pop isn't going to help. Going against advice cos people know "better" isn't going to help. I'm pretty sure Boris and his cronies didn't contract the virus on purpose, so lets assume that their actions were best intended for the greater good shall we, rather than having a different opinion for the sake of it
The people dying now almost a thousand a day, are ones who contracted the virus back when Boris was letting 250 thousand people pack into Cheltenham, then telling everyone, not to shake hands or elder people not to go on cruises. Whilst other European countries seeing the Italy data and looking at models from China were locking down. We, the public didn’t know. But the government most certainly did. They saw the data. They knew the implications. They knew Italy was swamped with people dying from this and saw the huge pressure on health services. They knew there was no way to stop it spreading and we already had a few weeks of community transmission.

Let’s not pretend people who understand epidemiology weren’t screaming and jumping up and down.

The people dying now are because we acted in the way we did. It has absolutely nothing to do with people not following the lockdown.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by malcd1 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 pm
malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
I know right. If only we’d had some sort of early warning system about what might be coming?

Italy were in a crisis before they knew it. And still seemingly managed to in majority of cases issue full PPE...far more comprehensive than ours. And went into a strict lockdown. Germany managed to scale up their labs to testing in the space of a week.

We had warnings from previous directors of PH that we weren’t doing the things required. Now it turns out we actually weren’t and should have listened to those experts - the ones free from politics. Instead we let crank behavioural scientists send us down the wrong path because our government were too scared of upsetting the economy.

My wife is a sister / nurse on an Intensive Care Unit looking after very ill Coronavirus patients. Before it started properly here and while hundreds were dying in Italy, the senior consultants at the hospital said it was nothing to get concerned about. Flu kills more people every year than Covid-19 will. If these well informed and trained professionals were brushing it off, it is no wonder others were not really that prepared.

I would also add that the mask my wife wears is manufactured in Germany. I suspect the UK only get sold what the Germans don't need.

They take as many precautions as they can where PPE and H&S is concerned. I still worry about her every day and what she might be bringing back into our house to our kids and me. None of us have any underlying health conditions but I am now in my 50's and males make up just over 60% of the total deaths worldwide. She said I am well insured if anything happens to me :( . In my opinion all health care professionals have a dark sense of humour (I hope it was just a joke anyway!).
Do not trust atoms. They make up everything.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Hoboh » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:57 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:32 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:27 pm
malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
Agreed, no country in the world had prepared for this in terms of stockpiles of PPE and ventilators. What is the way Out? A vaccine, other than that I wouldn't hazard a guess although I will admit to losing an awful lot of faith in some 'expert's' seems like common sense is not a valid qualification in some cases, only their version of science and number crunching.
If a vaccine is even viable. Depends how long immunity lasts to this thing. If a few months (as per other coronaviruses) then vaccines may not even be very effective. And the same problem exists with any notion of very slow and controlled herd immunity. If immunity is not longer term then that won’t work either.

The problem is that nobody, has an exit strategy because in reality one doesn’t exist. The only model is in China and they had very extensive local lockdowns and huge testing and contact tracking. And such a model to get out is not likely to last for ever as eventually cases will spike again.
And that's if you believe the figures from China, most don't.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Hoboh » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:09 am

malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 pm
malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
I know right. If only we’d had some sort of early warning system about what might be coming?

Italy were in a crisis before they knew it. And still seemingly managed to in majority of cases issue full PPE...far more comprehensive than ours. And went into a strict lockdown. Germany managed to scale up their labs to testing in the space of a week.

We had warnings from previous directors of PH that we weren’t doing the things required. Now it turns out we actually weren’t and should have listened to those experts - the ones free from politics. Instead we let crank behavioural scientists send us down the wrong path because our government were too scared of upsetting the economy.

My wife is a sister / nurse on an Intensive Care Unit looking after very ill Coronavirus patients. Before it started properly here and while hundreds were dying in Italy, the senior consultants at the hospital said it was nothing to get concerned about. Flu kills more people every year than Covid-19 will. If these well informed and trained professionals were brushing it off, it is no wonder others were not really that prepared.

I would also add that the mask my wife wears is manufactured in Germany. I suspect the UK only get sold what the Germans don't need.

They take as many precautions as they can where PPE and H&S is concerned. I still worry about her every day and what she might be bringing back into our house to our kids and me. None of us have any underlying health conditions but I am now in my 50's and males make up just over 60% of the total deaths worldwide. She said I am well insured if anything happens to me :( . In my opinion all health care professionals have a dark sense of humour (I hope it was just a joke anyway!).
Say a big thanks to your missus from me unfortunately I was in the position of having to use the HDU once and the staff were, well I really cannot describe it and yes the dark humour made me chuckle.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:15 am

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:56 pm
Again, no descent from me,
Staying on top, are you Hoboh? :wink:
"If you cannot answer a man's argument, all it not lost; you can still call him vile names. " Elbert Hubbard.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:29 am

malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 pm
malcd1 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 pm
There is a worldwide shortage of PPE. Every single hospital in the world wants it where previously they didn’t. What do you suggest we do? There are enough masks, aprons and gloves at most hospitals. The problem is there is not enough different size masks, especially small ones. If the doctors and nurses are the standard size then they have enough. If they need a small then they might have to share (rubber reusable ones).

Have you tried to get masks recently? I have from numerous sources and every place I tried they had sold out and all future stock had been requisitioned by the NHS.

Will mistakes have been made? Almost certainly. If the powers that be could back and do it all again would they do things differently? Definitely. Hindsight is great especially when throwing dirt and criticising.
I know right. If only we’d had some sort of early warning system about what might be coming?

Italy were in a crisis before they knew it. And still seemingly managed to in majority of cases issue full PPE...far more comprehensive than ours. And went into a strict lockdown. Germany managed to scale up their labs to testing in the space of a week.

We had warnings from previous directors of PH that we weren’t doing the things required. Now it turns out we actually weren’t and should have listened to those experts - the ones free from politics. Instead we let crank behavioural scientists send us down the wrong path because our government were too scared of upsetting the economy.

My wife is a sister / nurse on an Intensive Care Unit looking after very ill Coronavirus patients. Before it started properly here and while hundreds were dying in Italy, the senior consultants at the hospital said it was nothing to get concerned about. Flu kills more people every year than Covid-19 will. If these well informed and trained professionals were brushing it off, it is no wonder others were not really that prepared.

I would also add that the mask my wife wears is manufactured in Germany. I suspect the UK only get sold what the Germans don't need.

They take as many precautions as they can where PPE and H&S is concerned. I still worry about her every day and what she might be bringing back into our house to our kids and me. None of us have any underlying health conditions but I am now in my 50's and males make up just over 60% of the total deaths worldwide. She said I am well insured if anything happens to me :( . In my opinion all health care professionals have a dark sense of humour (I hope it was just a joke anyway!).
Those professionals would look at the outcomes and relatively low death rate and see it something akin to flu. But of course we vaccinate against flu so the numbers who get it are lowered. Whereas this is a bit more infectious and crucially nobody in the world has immunity. So it’s a mass numbers thing. If thousands all got flu at once you’d have an issue.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by dave the minion » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:25 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:51 pm
dave the minion wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:13 pm
It never ceases to amaze and astound me the level of dirt throwing and point scoring people resort to in a crisis. As has been said, maybe things could have been done differently, maybe things could have been done better and maybe, just maybe countries could have been more prepared.

However.....

This is something that is unprecedented in recent times. The level of international travel that was occurring prior to lockdown meant the virus had a far greater propensity to spread than it would have done previously. No country in the world was prepared for it, and whilst each country has dealt with it slightly differently, this is all on the back of local expert advice. No country has the right answer, but I do believe they are all doing their best in what are horrific circumstances.

Why can't people just accept this and go along with it and try to make it work?? If expert A's advice is different from Expert B's - who the hell are we to know which is the right path to choose?

What pees me off is when you get the opposition criticising the governments response - just for the sake of it. Similar to criticisms in this thread - why can't people just accept that everyone is doing their best? I don't give a shiny shite whether you are labour, conservative or Jedi, the government are in a hell of a position here and I for one think they are handling it as well as any other government could.

In times like this its important we all get behind the national effort to beat this thing - however that might be. Having a baseless pop isn't going to help. Going against advice cos people know "better" isn't going to help. I'm pretty sure Boris and his cronies didn't contract the virus on purpose, so lets assume that their actions were best intended for the greater good shall we, rather than having a different opinion for the sake of it


The people dying now almost a thousand a day, are ones who contracted the virus back when Boris was letting 250 thousand people pack into Cheltenham, then telling everyone, not to shake hands or elder people not to go on cruises. Whilst other European countries seeing the Italy data and looking at models from China were locking down. We, the public didn’t know. But the government most certainly did. They saw the data. They knew the implications. They knew Italy was swamped with people dying from this and saw the huge pressure on health services. They knew there was no way to stop it spreading and we already had a few weeks of community transmission.

Let’s not pretend people who understand epidemiology weren’t screaming and jumping up and down.

The people dying now are because we acted in the way we did. It has absolutely nothing to do with people not following the lockdown.
So, the conclusion I come to based on your response is either:
i) the people in charge & the experts deliberately did things "wrong" for some reason, or
ii) you know better than all the country's assembled doctors, scientists and politicians

More point scoring, for zero gain.

Everyone's an expert when they have the benefit of hindsight. I'll repeat, this is a shit situation and unprecedented in this generation. No one - not a single person/body - knows the correct way to deal with this, but everyone is trying.

If you thought lock-down should have happened 2 weeks earlier than it did, then you can sure as hell bet someone else would think it should have happened even earlier. The truth of the matter is that the lockdown in this country happened at the most optimal time the advice was suggested. Too early and there's not enough virus circulating, so the lockdown is ineffective and resurges immediately when restrictions are lifted. Too late, and people are dying and the NHS is overwhelmed. What the government did is what it perceived to be the best given the adviice.

There's no conspiracy. None. Just a bunch of leaders dealt a shite hand and trying to do the best for the country. For what its worth, I think they are dealing with it admirably.

And, the economic impacts of lockdown can't be ignored. Im not saying they should be more important than people's lives, but if lockdown happened too soon and is too prolonged, then the economic - and subsequent social implications - including many many deaths from depression, poor general health etc - would be far reaching. Its a balancing act, and one that is impossible to get 100% correct.

All I can say is I'm glad its not me having to stand up there every day trying to advise 75m people how to stay safe. I'm thankful for th people trying to get us through it, and eternally grateful for the sacrifices of all frontline workers keeping the country going, and I can see zero benefit for point scoring throughout all of this....
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Prufrock » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:48 pm

I think it's fair to question why we took a different approach to most other countries.

They've obviously made their decisions in good faith, and I don't envy them having to do so. There are no obvious answers and for all these tough calls there will be advice going both ways.

I'm a nerd for that sort of thing so find all the nudge stuff fascinating but I think it was a mistake to put so much emphasis on the behavioural insights "science".

That's not too question their motives but it is fair to examine the quality of the decisions leaders make.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:55 pm

dave the minion wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:25 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:51 pm
dave the minion wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:13 pm
It never ceases to amaze and astound me the level of dirt throwing and point scoring people resort to in a crisis. As has been said, maybe things could have been done differently, maybe things could have been done better and maybe, just maybe countries could have been more prepared.

However.....

This is something that is unprecedented in recent times. The level of international travel that was occurring prior to lockdown meant the virus had a far greater propensity to spread than it would have done previously. No country in the world was prepared for it, and whilst each country has dealt with it slightly differently, this is all on the back of local expert advice. No country has the right answer, but I do believe they are all doing their best in what are horrific circumstances.

Why can't people just accept this and go along with it and try to make it work?? If expert A's advice is different from Expert B's - who the hell are we to know which is the right path to choose?

What pees me off is when you get the opposition criticising the governments response - just for the sake of it. Similar to criticisms in this thread - why can't people just accept that everyone is doing their best? I don't give a shiny shite whether you are labour, conservative or Jedi, the government are in a hell of a position here and I for one think they are handling it as well as any other government could.

In times like this its important we all get behind the national effort to beat this thing - however that might be. Having a baseless pop isn't going to help. Going against advice cos people know "better" isn't going to help. I'm pretty sure Boris and his cronies didn't contract the virus on purpose, so lets assume that their actions were best intended for the greater good shall we, rather than having a different opinion for the sake of it


The people dying now almost a thousand a day, are ones who contracted the virus back when Boris was letting 250 thousand people pack into Cheltenham, then telling everyone, not to shake hands or elder people not to go on cruises. Whilst other European countries seeing the Italy data and looking at models from China were locking down. We, the public didn’t know. But the government most certainly did. They saw the data. They knew the implications. They knew Italy was swamped with people dying from this and saw the huge pressure on health services. They knew there was no way to stop it spreading and we already had a few weeks of community transmission.

Let’s not pretend people who understand epidemiology weren’t screaming and jumping up and down.

The people dying now are because we acted in the way we did. It has absolutely nothing to do with people not following the lockdown.
So, the conclusion I come to based on your response is either:
i) the people in charge & the experts deliberately did things "wrong" for some reason, or
ii) you know better than all the country's assembled doctors, scientists and politicians

More point scoring, for zero gain.

Everyone's an expert when they have the benefit of hindsight. I'll repeat, this is a shit situation and unprecedented in this generation. No one - not a single person/body - knows the correct way to deal with this, but everyone is trying.

If you thought lock-down should have happened 2 weeks earlier than it did, then you can sure as hell bet someone else would think it should have happened even earlier. The truth of the matter is that the lockdown in this country happened at the most optimal time the advice was suggested. Too early and there's not enough virus circulating, so the lockdown is ineffective and resurges immediately when restrictions are lifted. Too late, and people are dying and the NHS is overwhelmed. What the government did is what it perceived to be the best given the adviice.

There's no conspiracy. None. Just a bunch of leaders dealt a shite hand and trying to do the best for the country. For what its worth, I think they are dealing with it admirably.

And, the economic impacts of lockdown can't be ignored. Im not saying they should be more important than people's lives, but if lockdown happened too soon and is too prolonged, then the economic - and subsequent social implications - including many many deaths from depression, poor general health etc - would be far reaching. Its a balancing act, and one that is impossible to get 100% correct.

All I can say is I'm glad its not me having to stand up there every day trying to advise 75m people how to stay safe. I'm thankful for th people trying to get us through it, and eternally grateful for the sacrifices of all frontline workers keeping the country going, and I can see zero benefit for point scoring throughout all of this....
This isn’t point scoring. It’s looking at thousands of people dying who could have been spared. See Germany, Singapore, South Korea, New Zealand for examples of how different more stringent approaches have spared people’s lives. The whole thing about government is making difficult decisions in difficult situations. They clearly called this one wrong and as a result we are experiencing a huge loss of life. The fact anyone seems more interested in protecting the government’s reputation over the loss of almost a thousand people a day blows my mind. Nobody, blames the government for the virus. It was impossible to stop it coming here. But the judgement call that we needed to keep things going economically for as long as possible was clearly a terrible call. They had the data and chose to either ignore it, or to take ultimately what is likely to be bad advice.

The point is that we need to now seriously question the next stage. There needs to be scrutiny. Because we don’t want to ignore a host of other countries to do our own thing with regard to releasing lockdown measures and get it wrong again. Because the cost is lives.

Enoch
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Enoch » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:40 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:48 pm
...but it is fair to examine the quality of the decisions leaders make.

Indeed and that will undoubtedly happen in an appropriate fashion.

Pontificating on a football fans forum as if you know everything and in a Nostradamus like way saw it all clearly, whilst the collective brain of government and science couldn't see beyond the end of their noses...

.

...and don't even get me on those f*ckin' so called journalists, constantly badgering folk with questions no c*nt knows the answer to.

Encapsulated here by Punt & Dennis at about 16:18 in.

BWFC_Insane
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:30 pm

This twitter thread pretty much sums it up.

https://twitter.com/laineydoyle/status/ ... 28259?s=21

dave the minion
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by dave the minion » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:06 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:55 pm



This isn’t point scoring. It’s looking at thousands of people dying who could have been spared.
You sure about that? Absolutely sure? Pity you weren't there to give your advice a few months ago, this whole thing would have been a breeze and sorted by now.


BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:55 pm
See Germany, Singapore, South Korea, New Zealand for examples of how different more stringent approaches have spared people’s lives. The whole thing about government is making difficult decisions in difficult situations. They clearly called this one wrong and as a result we are experiencing a huge loss of life. The fact anyone seems more interested in protecting the government’s reputation over the loss of almost a thousand people a day blows my mind. Nobody, blames the government for the virus. It was impossible to stop it coming here. But the judgement call that we needed to keep things going economically for as long as possible was clearly a terrible call. They had the data and chose to either ignore it, or to take ultimately what is likely to be bad advice.
Different countries, with different existing health services, different demographics, different levels of being able to control citizens etc.

Not sure we "clearly" called anything - right, wrong, or indifferently.

There is not a single person who can say any strategy has worked or not at this stage I'm afraid.

I also don't think people are trying to protect anyone's reputation - I think - well, I hope as well - that everyone is focussed on trying to protect as many people as possible through this.
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