Today I'm happy about......

If you have a life outside of BWFC, then this is the place to tell us all about your toilet habits, and those bizarre fetishes.......

Moderator: Zulus Thousand of em

Post Reply
User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38631
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:13 pm

thebish wrote:I suspect that God doesn't "look" like anything... I suspect God is not the kind of "thing" that can be "seen".
Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

LeverEnd
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8526
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:18 pm
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by LeverEnd » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:14 pm

Are you lot thick or what? Lustrous white hair, long white beard, white robe.
EVERYONE knows that.
...

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 20450
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:19 pm

Worthy4England wrote:So you believe love and the like exists - you can't see it...It's not consistent.
I can't see gravity.

This is a bizarre line of argument, I must say!

To try to answer what I think you're getting at: There is plenty of evidence that love exists (are you suggesting it doesn't?). It's an emotion, emotions exist. No-one argues otherwise. If they did, then it's evidence that people claim to feel it (anecdotal evidence isn't the strongest, but it's not "not evidence" either), their heart rate may increase when they see their loved one etc... In that sense no-one would deny that god "exists". People believe in god, can be emotionally moved by the idea of god.

There's then a jump to start making "truth claims" about god having some kind of agency and existing as an entity. That god is an agent that, say, created heaven and earth 3,500 years ago. Well, no, I'm sorry, there's no evidence for that. In the same way that love exists, but Climie Fisher are going to have to provide some bloody evidence before I believe that it's changed anything :D!

Humanists aren't some caricatures of Richard Dawkins public persona. If I feel like a cup of tea I don't interrogate myself as to whether there is any real evidence that I need a cup of tea. But if someone makes a "truth claim". X happened, because Y called it, then if there's any kind of dispute over that, I believe the best way to settle that is to test the evidential basis for each claim.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

Prufrock
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 20450
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:28 pm

thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:Really?!

There's definitely evidence art exists. I've seen it.

And yes, humanism has lots to say on love and the like.

such as...? which of those ideas about love and human frailty that are specifically humanist do you think should be taught to children as part of the curriculum?

as for RE in school...

yeah - there is lots that is useful to know... budgetting... how mortgages work... gender politics... how the UK democratic system works... nutrition... exercise... endless demands are made by various pressure groups for time to be carved out of the curriculum... having had three children go through all the levels of the UK state school system - my personal reflection is their time at school was best spent on learning how to read, write, do maths and science and learn how express themselves and analyse ideas.

As for RE, I just don't think that you can really learn anything much useful about any particular "religion" in the time available in the school curriculum. if you have read about the "5 K's" and visited a Gurdwara - it doesn't mean you know anything much worth knowing about Sikhism. religion is a lived experience within a community - not a learned series of facts or visits to buildings...

of course - more knowledge is helpful - but when there is tons of other useful stuff to learn
Quick guide from the BHA website:

"Roughly speaking, the word humanist has come to mean someone who:

trusts to the scientific method when it comes to understanding how the universe works and rejects the idea of the supernatural (and is therefore an atheist or agnostic)
makes their ethical decisions based on reason, empathy, and a concern for human beings and other sentient animals
believes that, in the absence of an afterlife and any discernible purpose to the universe, human beings can act to give their own lives meaning by seeking happiness in this life and helping others to do the same."

Seems a good start. You don't need to believe in an afterlife or higher being to live a moral life, and the fact that you only live once makes the one life you have unbelievably special. You are lucky to be here and alive right now and you should make the most out of it and try to help others to do the same.

As for RE, of course it doesn't make you an expert. But, for example, we did a trip round a mosque, suddenly we were having conversations with the muslim kids about various things and it loses its "otherness". If school never mentions to you the cultural history of religions, particularly the three monotheisms, how are you supposed to understand what you learn in history, or current events. How do yuo understand Northern Ireland without knowing the differences between Catholocism and Protestantism, or the partition of India without the religious element.

And I don't agree you can teach art without any "history of art" at all. You can teach painting, or drawing, but how do yuo get to surrealism without some history of art. You're expecting every year of 15 year old to independently invent each artistic movement that might inspire them?

And you straight up cannot properly appreciate the vast majority of literature in the English language without at least a framework of some knowledge of the bible. It pervades our culture.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

William the White
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8454
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:43 pm
Location: Trotter Shop

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by William the White » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:36 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:I suspect that God doesn't "look" like anything... I suspect God is not the kind of "thing" that can be "seen".
Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Did you mean to put a :wink: at the end of that?

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:38 pm

if you accept that heart rates increase due to this thing you call love - then what do you mean that you still seek "evidence" that it changes anything?

as for the guff about needing to know about history of art to teach art - that applies to almost everything you could teach! then you'd have to know about just about everything to be taught about anything!

I didn't call for no teaching of history of art or religion.. I just questionned the justification for having it as a subject of its own in the curriculum taking up all the time it does. what you need to know to understand shakespeare or a particular period of history or a particular movement in painting can easily and properly be taught as a part of the subject in question...

for a humanist - you come across as a VERY dogmatic young man! :D

(as for NI - which differences between protestantism and catholicism do you think explain the "troubles" or the good friday agreement or the current situation? be specific - if you want that to be taught to children!)

also - my previous question to you remains..

which of those ideas about love and human frailty that are specifically humanist do you think should be taught to children as part of the curriculum? top three would be a good start...
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38631
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:40 pm

^ In religious content, faith is a direct opposite of proof. If proof to believe in God existed, then Black Friday would be tranquil compare to the queues at churches.

"Up from earths centre. through the seventh gate, I rose and on the throne of Saturn sate,
And many knots unravelled by the road, but not the Knot of human death and fate"


Fitzgerald translating Omat Khayyam (yes, I know)....from over almost a thousand years ago. Omar Khayyám was a Persian mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and poet, who is widely considered to be one of the most influential scientists of the middle ages. He had no answers, and neither has anyone since.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:46 pm

LeverEnd wrote:Are you lot thick or what? Lustrous white hair, long white beard, white robe.
EVERYONE knows that.

Dumbledore??

oh... no - Gandalf! :oyea:
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:52 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:^ In religious content, faith is a direct opposite of proof. If proof to believe in God existed, then Black Friday would be tranquil compare to the queues at churches.

"Up from earths centre. through the seventh gate, I rose and on the throne of Saturn sate,
And many knots unravelled by the road, but not the Knot of human death and fate"


Fitzgerald translating Omat Khayyam (yes, I know)....from over almost a thousand years ago. Omar Khayyám was a Persian mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and poet, who is widely considered to be one of the most influential scientists of the middle ages. He had no answers, and neither has anyone since.

there's a little arrow pointing up to my post from your post - but I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the connection between the two is...

also - I think if you take the Bible as your guide, then "faith" is not really the opposite of "proof" - the Bible doesn't talk about faith in those terms hardly at all... the bible uses the word "faith" much more as the opposite to "fear"...
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38631
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:12 pm

thebish wrote:
there's a little arrow pointing up to my post from your post - but I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the connection between the two is...

also - I think if you take the Bible as your guide, then "faith" is not really the opposite of "proof" - the Bible doesn't talk about faith in those terms hardly at all... the bible uses the word "faith" much more as the opposite to "fear"...
Arrow meant for answering Pru. By the time I'd typed it yours had come in between. Happens quite often. As for "faith", fear of what? If it's fear of satan and evil, fear of not going to Heaven,then if one exists, surely so does the other. I stand by what I said. It was stated in the context of the Christian faith of which the life of Jesus in the Bible is proof enough, if any is needed. You either acknowlege the Bible or you don't. How you interpret it is another issue and a pointless and unsolvable argument. I've known people who don't believe in God yet are superstitious, maybe even believe in ghosts. How contrary is that?
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

Beefheart
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 2918
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Beefheart » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:13 pm

If a god exists (clearly, there doesn't) or not, and whatever form he may or may not take, the guy is clearly a complete wanker. So I'm not that arsed either way.

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:19 pm

Beefheart wrote:If a god exists (clearly, there doesn't) or not, and whatever form he may or may not take, the guy is clearly a complete wanker. So I'm not that arsed either way.
...good of you to take the trouble to say so! :D
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

Worthy4England
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 24199
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 6:45 pm

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:25 pm

That person who doesn't exist is a wanker....that'll get the humanists talking. :-)

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:43 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:
there's a little arrow pointing up to my post from your post - but I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the connection between the two is...

also - I think if you take the Bible as your guide, then "faith" is not really the opposite of "proof" - the Bible doesn't talk about faith in those terms hardly at all... the bible uses the word "faith" much more as the opposite to "fear"...
Arrow meant for answering Pru. By the time I'd typed it yours had come in between. Happens quite often. As for "faith", fear of what? If it's fear of satan and evil, fear of not going to Heaven,then if one exists, surely so does the other. I stand by what I said. It was stated in the context of the Christian faith of which the life of Jesus in the Bible is proof enough, if any is needed. You either acknowlege the Bible or you don't. How you interpret it is another issue and a pointless and unsolvable argument. I've known people who don't believe in God yet are superstitious, maybe even believe in ghosts. How contrary is that?
again - I am having difficulty unthreading the various strands of your post...

here's how the bible understands "faith"... (if the Bible is your guide in these matters) (and if you are actually interested)

the biblical meaning is summed up in the latin words fidelitas and fiducia and their greek counterparts - these words are about trust, allegiance, loyalty, commitment - they are NOT about believing something unbelievable or unprovable - that idea is a relatively "modern" gloss over the word "faith"...

so - the opposite of faith is about mistrust... and so is associated with anxiety and uncertainty in a relationship - which is why I picked the word "fear" (nowt to do with the "devil" or "hell") "faith" in the bible (like "belief" - interestingly) means TRUST IN... (God or Jesus)

so - actual biblical exanmples? when jesus talks about the lilies and the birds of the air and how they are clothed and fed - he then says "why do you worry/fear... why are you anxious... you of little faith" - he clearly means that faith is about trust... basically the same thing happens when Jesus calms the storm on the lake - asks them why they were anxious/worried and accuses them of having little faith... again - that is not a conversation about the opposite of proof - it is a conversation about trust... The same thing happens when Peter tries to walk on water... after a few steps he becomes afraid and starts to sink - and jesus tells him he has little faith - he no longer totally trusted the one he walked towards... when jesus heals the daughter of a roman soldier - the soldier tells jesus there is no need for him to go to the house - he can do it from where he is just by saying the word - and jesus commends his faith... yet again - not about proof - but about absolute trust (in Jesus)

jesus is saying that deep faith frees you from anxiety - just as Paul writes that perfect love casts out fear... neither is talking about "proof" or the opposite of it.

I am struggling to find any biblical usage of the word "faith" that is set in the context of a conversation about "proof"...
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38631
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:53 pm

Not sure what you are arguing or proving. The proof we were discussing was about the existence of God, something that can neither be proven or disproven. That's why believers take it on faith. You either believe or you don't. There is no proof either way, other than what you believe or don't believe in.

Faith: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:01 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:Not sure what you are arguing or proving. The proof we were discussing was about the existence of God, something that can neither be proven or disproven. That's why believers take it on faith. You either believe or you don't. There is no proof either way, other than what you believe or don't believe in.

Faith: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

I was discussing your statement "In religious content, faith is a direct opposite of proof."

you may believe that - but that's not how the bible understands the word "faith" (as I have carefully tried to explain.)

you quote a modern dictionary... if you read what I said, I said that this idea that "faith" is the opposite of proof is a modern gloss on the word. I am merely pointing out that it is not the biblical meaning - and not the Christian meaning...

if your authority on christianity is a dictionary - all well and good... I'd go with the actual bible... quote me some of that if you want to persuade me that Jesus agrees with you! :wink:
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

Beefheart
Passionate
Passionate
Posts: 2918
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Beefheart » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:05 pm

Jesus, there's another wanker. Sod 'em.

User avatar
TANGODANCER
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 38631
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:35 pm
Location: Lost between the Regency and the Rubaiyat and forever trying to light a penny candle from a star.

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:19 pm

thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:Not sure what you are arguing or proving. The proof we were discussing was about the existence of God, something that can neither be proven or disproven. That's why believers take it on faith. You either believe or you don't. There is no proof either way, other than what you believe or don't believe in.

Faith: strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

I was discussing your statement "In religious content, faith is a direct opposite of proof."

you may believe that - but that's not how the bible understands the word "faith" (as I have carefully tried to explain.)

you quote a modern dictionary... if you read what I said, I said that this idea that "faith" is the opposite of proof is a modern gloss on the word. I am merely pointing out that it is not the biblical meaning - and not the Christian meaning...

if your authority on christianity is a dictionary - all well and good... I'd go with the actual bible... quote me some of that if you want to persuade me that Jesus agrees with you! :wink:
Don't think I'll bother. Did Jesus tell Peter to have faith, ie no proof, when telling him to walk on water? Is one not the opposite of the other? Once he had done that he had proof he could do it. Jesus told him to do it without proof, ie have faith. I have no "authority" in books, that's what "faith" means, and I had that a long time before Wickipedia arrived.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

thebish
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 37588
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:01 am
Location: In my armchair

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:43 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:Don't think I'll bother.
you don't think you'll bother... what?
TANGODANCER wrote:Did Jesus tell Peter to have faith, ie no proof, when telling him to walk on water?
nope.
TANGODANCER wrote: Is one not the opposite of the other?
not as far as the bible is concerned - nope. (see above - as carefully explained)
TANGODANCER wrote:Once he had done that he had proof he could do it.
again - nope - that's not the bible says happened
TANGODANCER wrote:Jesus told him to do it without proof, ie have faith.
no - he didn't.
TANGODANCER wrote:I have no "authority" in books, that's what "faith" means,
no - faith does not mean having no authority in books
TANGODANCER wrote: and I had that a long time before Wickipedia arrived.
I don't think anyone has appealed to wikipedia...


otherwise - we appear to be in complete and total agreement! :D
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

User avatar
Abdoulaye's Twin
Legend
Legend
Posts: 8574
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: Skye high

Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:08 pm

Pack it in you two. We all know where this is headed, so just skip to the making up part :wink:

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests