Well, I'd never have thought this ...

[thebish]

[Worthy4England]

Witness statements *are* evidence, and always have been. We live in a world where there's CCTV and fingerprint technology but they're recent developments. For the vast majority of the history of any legal system, witness testimony (from the victim, others and especially the police) has been by far and away the most useful tool. If you didn't have convictions based only on witness testimony then there'd be scores of people getting away with stuff all the time. As technology gets better maybe we'll get to a time where you can't base a conviction only on witness evidence Minority Report stylee, but we're a long way from that.

It's an interesting debate, and one I don't think is clear cut. I certainly subscribe to the idea that it's worse to put an innocent man in jail than to let a guilty man go free, but that's not an absolute. Is it worse to put an innocent man in jail than let ten guilty men go free? A thousand? The insurmountable problem with any 'judging' system is that you have to find as 'fact' stuff you can often never 100% know. Sooner or later you have to make a call though, or everyone gets away with everything. 'Witness' evidence like all evidence has its flaws, but as long as you recognise them, and any lawyer even vaguely worth his salt would have been stressing that, then it's as valuable a tool as any other.

The domestic violence charity I volunteered for was set up because people kept being charged, and then acquitted. There were *some* convictions but also some acquittals where the people I spoke to were convinced they were guilty.

I'm not so sure. I can see your point regarding the domestic violence problem - which isn't dissimilar to the cases against the glitterati currently running. There are only two people there when the incident took place.

I don't see how you can get to beyond reasonable doubt in those circumstances. As a juror, one of the two might have been way more convincing to me, but I wouldn't feel comfortable saying I was beyond reasonable doubt.

I get that unease. I'm not 100% comfortable with verdicts based only on one person's word against another, and whilst I wouldn't say 'never' I think it's rare you'd ever discharge the burden with a 1v1. But these case aren't 1v1, they're several individually v1. Whilst some of the same drawbacks apply, consider the following example:

Person A is arrested and charged with abusing Person B. It is reported that Person A has been arrested and charged with sexual offences. Persons C, D, E, F, G and H hear about this and independently come forward to the police alleging that Person A abused them. No details of the allegations have been published, and the victims do not know each other, but each given statements which include the same very specific details, whether it's threats made by Person A, weird fetishes, specific ways to try to persuade them to do it, whatever, but details which are unique and they could not have guessed. When cross-examined all their statements hold up, yet Person A contradicts himself and does not seem reliable.

In those circumstances, with no other evidence, I can see how you'd get to 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

In domestic violence cases they have come up with a work around. The charity I was with helped victims apply for civil orders, where the burden is balance of probabilities, which would allow the victim to get a non-molestation order, or an occupation order. These were basically orders telling the other party either not to abuse the victim, or to not visit a specific address. Breach of the order would be contempt of court and so up to (I think) 2 years. The contempt would still have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Breach of the non-molestation order would involve proving the abuse had occurred, but to a judge, and breach of the occupation order would simply mean proving the other party went where they shouldn't. I'm not sure in practice there were many occasions were someone was charged with the resulting contempt, but the orders gave the victim time and space to get free of the situation they were in.

Fair point, there could be corroborating statements. I guess the problem I have with that is that I don't trust our Police not to be able to lead a person to a corroborating statement when (or prior to) being formally interviewed. So I think I'd always be difficult to convince - having had first hand experience of them corroborating their own statements.

I think on the domestic violence problem, I'd be much more easy to convince that a non-molestation order or occupation/exclusion order was appropriate as that in itself isn't locking someone up.

[CrazyHorse]

Rolf Harris receives five years and nine months.

[Bruce Rioja]

Rolf Harris receives five years and nine months.

An appeal has been lodged immediately against its undue leniency, I believe.

[Little Green Man]

Rolf Harris receives five years and nine months.

An appeal has been lodged immediately against its undue leniency, I believe.

Should have been at least ten. Bloody kangaroo court!

[bobo the clown]

660 people arrested today for kiddie porn type offences.

I mean, really, wtf is going on ?



I think we should have a roll-call of who's missing off here !!

[jaffka]

Dirty gets should all be shot.

[Little Green Man]

660 people arrested today for kiddie porn type offences.

I mean, really, wtf is going on ?

They're probably rounding up the 2% of the Catholic clergy the Pope fingered the other day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28282050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They should of course all be shot in the face as soon as they open the door of the Parochial House. None of the usual 'arrest, detention, charge, remand and trial' pussy-footing for the likes of these deviants.

[bobo the clown]

^^ The Pope fingered 2% of the Catholic clergy ... in one day ???

Blimey.

[Prufrock]

I like this pope better than the last one. Tbf, I think it's coz the last one was reeeeeally bad, but I suppose it's something.

Also, that article said that *some* estimates put the number of people suffering from the psychological disorder of paedophilia at less than 5%. Some?! What on earth are they defining as the psychological disorder of paedophilia - coz, FIVE percent?! SOME estimates?!

[jaffka]

^^ The Pope fingered 2% of the Catholic clergy ... in one day ???

Blimey.

that is some going, big respect to him

I only managed a 'Heinz varieties' in that world record bangathon attempt I did.

[bobo the clown]

^^ The Pope fingered 2% of the Catholic clergy ... in one day ???

Blimey.

that is some going, big respect to him

I only managed a 'Heinz varieties' in that world record bangathon attempt I did.

Yeah ... but you were on your own at the time !!

[jaffka]

^^ The Pope fingered 2% of the Catholic clergy ... in one day ???

Blimey.

that is some going, big respect to him

I only managed a 'Heinz varieties' in that world record bangathon attempt I did.

Yeah ... but you were on your own at the time !!

you were my fluffer

[LeverEnd]

Hope he has a decent nail brush.

[Bijou Bob]

You can all relax. According to an Ex colleague of mine who claims to be itk, the 73 year old who has been questioned by police but not yet charged, has now gone on his summer holiday.

[bobo the clown]

↑↑↑ Again ??

Meanwhile which of those 15 boxes is that Super-Injunction in, I wonder. Coz it's holding well.

[clapton is god]

Yes, it's another one of those. Def NSFW. Hitler finds out about Rolf Harris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrpfPv8WC2c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bijou Bob]

Yes, it's another one of those. Def NSFW. Hitler finds out about Rolf Harris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrpfPv8WC2c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I love those. Made my morning that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Yes, it's another one of those. Def NSFW. Hitler finds out about Rolf Harris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrpfPv8WC2c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... erican-way" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Holy shit!!!

God help anyone who decides to invade the USA just look at some of those weapons, hoboh would love some in his collection