The wonderful EU and Migration thread!

[William the White]

Can I just clear one thing up, I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the Syrians I just think we are going completely the wrong way about helping them.

So what is the right way?

[Hoboh]

Can I just clear one thing up, I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the Syrians I just think we are going completely the wrong way about helping them.

So what is the right way?

What I would like to see is the setting up of proper, decent camps within the surrounding countries, camps where health, and education could be looked after and training could take place to ensure the people are capable of rebuilding their shattered country once the conflict finished. We could build a police force, ready trained to act on the ground and upon their return root out the more extremist elements.
It is far better to place resources down this path rather than to expect peoples of totally different cultures and way of life from the European model to integrate and cause friction down the line.
The EU, rich gulf states, the US can all contribute to fund this and start the rebuilding once peace breaks out, a long term cheaper option than current one, we must not forget that Syria is hardly a poor country sitting on it’s own decent oil reserves, the cash just ends up in the wrong hands.
Allowing unfettered, unchecked, migration into Europe is not creating some new world order merely new world chaos.
One million this year how many next? This will become a precedent for all conflict spots around the world, having problems? Head for Europe.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Can I just clear one thing up, I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the Syrians I just think we are going completely the wrong way about helping them.

So what is the right way?

What I would like to see is the setting up of proper, decent camps within the surrounding countries, camps where health, and education could be looked after and training could take place to ensure the people are capable of rebuilding their shattered country once the conflict finished. We could build a police force, ready trained to act on the ground and upon their return root out the more extremist elements.
It is far better to place resources down this path rather than to expect peoples of totally different cultures and way of life from the European model to integrate and cause friction down the line.
The EU, rich gulf states, the US can all contribute to fund this and start the rebuilding once peace breaks out, a long term cheaper option than current one, we must not forget that Syria is hardly a poor country sitting on it’s own decent oil reserves, the cash just ends up in the wrong hands.
Allowing unfettered, unchecked, migration into Europe is not creating some new world order merely new world chaos.
One million this year how many next? This will become a precedent for all conflict spots around the world, having problems? Head for Europe.

All well and good and might salve the conscience a little chucking money at it, but it still wont solve anything other than make you feel a bit better. A lot of money is already being spent on camps and schools/medical etc for those camps. The problem is that those camps are in countries without the infrastructure and resources to cope with the numbers - look at Jordan for a good example.

This isn't a short term thing, they aren't going to be able to go back in a couple of years time. Sticking millions of people in camps with no jobs and no future is only going to create more problems. I don't have the answers, but chucking a bit of money at it will solve nothing. We've chucked a billion at it on our own so far. What have we achieved? Very little...

[Hoboh]

Can I just clear one thing up, I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the Syrians I just think we are going completely the wrong way about helping them.

So what is the right way?

What I would like to see is the setting up of proper, decent camps within the surrounding countries, camps where health, and education could be looked after and training could take place to ensure the people are capable of rebuilding their shattered country once the conflict finished. We could build a police force, ready trained to act on the ground and upon their return root out the more extremist elements.
It is far better to place resources down this path rather than to expect peoples of totally different cultures and way of life from the European model to integrate and cause friction down the line.
The EU, rich gulf states, the US can all contribute to fund this and start the rebuilding once peace breaks out, a long term cheaper option than current one, we must not forget that Syria is hardly a poor country sitting on it’s own decent oil reserves, the cash just ends up in the wrong hands.
Allowing unfettered, unchecked, migration into Europe is not creating some new world order merely new world chaos.
One million this year how many next? This will become a precedent for all conflict spots around the world, having problems? Head for Europe.

All well and good and might salve the conscience a little chucking money at it, but it still wont solve anything other than make you feel a bit better. A lot of money is already being spent on camps and schools/medical etc for those camps. The problem is that those camps are in countries without the infrastructure and resources to cope with the numbers - look at Jordan for a good example.

This isn't a short term thing, they aren't going to be able to go back in a couple of years time. Sticking millions of people in camps with no jobs and no future is only going to create more problems. I don't have the answers, but chucking a bit of money at it will solve nothing. We've chucked a billion at it on our own so far. What have we achieved? Very little...

And just how much of that has been wasted by well meaning, disjointed NGO's?
You need proper engineers, proper security and build the bloody infrastructure, with the right mind set it can be done, not taking the Russians long to build up a formidable airbase is it?
You seriously are not trying to suggest that all of these people were in gainful employment are you? because with near 3,000,000 unemployed in Germany, 2,000,000 in the UK etc. etc. there is hardly a surplus of jobs in Europe!
What shall we do, wring our hands and not attempt anything, let entire populations in the middle East move to Europe so we can carpet bomb their countries and kill all the remaining bad guys?
"Short term" could be a decade, a decade of possible mass migration that will break the back of Europe with no future for millions here unless we do something.
BTW, bollox to easing my conscience I'd join the local Evangelist's if 'feeling good' was so important or post on Facebook to get imaginary friends and likes.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I'm not suggesting they all move here, the vast majority aren't.

Do you have any clue how much infrastructure costs? You'll be screaming blue murder when the bills roll in and the government has to raise taxes to pay for it. It's going to cost us a heck of a lot more than a billion. So whilst all this infrastructure is being built are we also paying to house and feed these people? What are they all going to be doing. Are you going to find them all a job, pay for their medical care and education? Those taxes just went up again!

As I said previously, I don't know what the answer is, but fobbing the problem and a few quid off on Jordan isn't going to fix anything. I'm assuming you think they should take them all because of a shared religion? You weren't too keen on us taking in the Bulgarians and Romanians, despite a broadly shared religion and some of them living a pretty grim existence.

[Hoboh]

I'm not suggesting they all move here, the vast majority aren't.

Do you have any clue how much infrastructure costs? You'll be screaming blue murder when the bills roll in and the government has to raise taxes to pay for it. It's going to cost us a heck of a lot more than a billion. So whilst all this infrastructure is being built are we also paying to house and feed these people? What are they all going to be doing. Are you going to find them all a job, pay for their medical care and education? Those taxes just went up again!

As I said previously, I don't know what the answer is, but fobbing the problem and a few quid off on Jordan isn't going to fix anything. I'm assuming you think they should take them all because of a shared religion? You weren't too keen on us taking in the Bulgarians and Romanians, despite a broadly shared religion and some of them living a pretty grim existence.

Us, us? has the EU suddenly ceased to exist?
Has the USA sunk?
Are the gulf states skint? I imagine the Saudi's etc. would move to put cash into the pot if we hinted at no backup for them if the sh*t hit the fan, money is not really the problem.
You are right, I am far from keen on the idea of mass movements of people, it eventually starts wars, riots and some poor buggers suffering!
Oh and it's alright because it's only a million plus this year, I suppose those left in the camps or fleeing Assad/Russians, the good the bad and the ugly jihadists are not going to think, Europe, I'm having some of that!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I'm not suggesting they all move here, the vast majority aren't.

Do you have any clue how much infrastructure costs? You'll be screaming blue murder when the bills roll in and the government has to raise taxes to pay for it. It's going to cost us a heck of a lot more than a billion. So whilst all this infrastructure is being built are we also paying to house and feed these people? What are they all going to be doing. Are you going to find them all a job, pay for their medical care and education? Those taxes just went up again!

As I said previously, I don't know what the answer is, but fobbing the problem and a few quid off on Jordan isn't going to fix anything. I'm assuming you think they should take them all because of a shared religion? You weren't too keen on us taking in the Bulgarians and Romanians, despite a broadly shared religion and some of them living a pretty grim existence.

Us, us? has the EU suddenly ceased to exist?
Has the USA sunk?
Are the gulf states skint? I imagine the Saudi's etc. would move to put cash into the pot if we hinted at no backup for them if the sh*t hit the fan, money is not really the problem.
You are right, I am far from keen on the idea of mass movements of people, it eventually starts wars, riots and some poor buggers suffering!

Given a relatively small train set and track (see HS1/2) costs many billions, then this infrastructure is going to cost us many many billions just for our share. The yanks are too busy spending billions on blowing shit up to be of much use, whilst the EU can't even agree on the simplest of things. As for Saudi? Unless something happens soonish they will be running out of cash, what with oil prices and the billions being spent on Yemen. I don't know what reserves the other gulf states have, but I'm willing to bet their finances aren't as cushty as you might think.

[Hoboh]

I'm not suggesting they all move here, the vast majority aren't.

Do you have any clue how much infrastructure costs? You'll be screaming blue murder when the bills roll in and the government has to raise taxes to pay for it. It's going to cost us a heck of a lot more than a billion. So whilst all this infrastructure is being built are we also paying to house and feed these people? What are they all going to be doing. Are you going to find them all a job, pay for their medical care and education? Those taxes just went up again!

As I said previously, I don't know what the answer is, but fobbing the problem and a few quid off on Jordan isn't going to fix anything. I'm assuming you think they should take them all because of a shared religion? You weren't too keen on us taking in the Bulgarians and Romanians, despite a broadly shared religion and some of them living a pretty grim existence.

Us, us? has the EU suddenly ceased to exist?
Has the USA sunk?
Are the gulf states skint? I imagine the Saudi's etc. would move to put cash into the pot if we hinted at no backup for them if the sh*t hit the fan, money is not really the problem.
You are right, I am far from keen on the idea of mass movements of people, it eventually starts wars, riots and some poor buggers suffering!

Given a relatively small train set and track (see HS1/2) costs many billions, then this infrastructure is going to cost us many many billions just for our share. The yanks are too busy spending billions on blowing shit up to be of much use, whilst the EU can't even agree on the simplest of things. As for Saudi? Unless something happens soonish they will be running out of cash, what with oil prices and the billions being spent on Yemen. I don't know what reserves the other gulf states have, but I'm willing to bet their finances aren't as cushty as you might think.

HS1/2 is hardly an essential piece of infrastructure, vital to the survival of people, Nope! It merely is a grand sounding plan, look what we are spending, aren't we good!
The Saudi's will soon, once they have knocked back US shale gas, start to hike up the price of crude.
Some premier league and foreign football clubs may suffer but the others are hardly broke.

[BWFC_Insane]

There is little rationale for spending hundreds of billions on temporary camps in countries with poor infrastructure to house the refugees when it is more efficient to house them in European nations with the infrastructure and development already in place to support them. The only rationale would be "we don't want them coming here" which is fine, but hardly a solid business case.

[Hoboh]

There is little rationale for spending hundreds of billions on temporary camps in countries with poor infrastructure to house the refugees when it is more efficient to house them in European nations with the infrastructure and development already in place to support them. The only rationale would be "we don't want them coming here" which is fine, but hardly a solid business case.

WTF!
When has hundreds of billions been spent on this?
Maybe, just maybe spending on building up the infrastructure in these places might, just might make them more stable places in the future, you know like everyone claims our current foreign aid is doing.
I see you are one of the ostriches that willingly buries your head in the sand, pretending we have the housing and infrastructure in place now to cope, not to mention an awful lot of people would be unhappy with mass migration of alien cultures. You want the rise of the ultra right, lay on ships and boats to bring them in but don't sit sulking in the corner because of all the problems you've caused.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Just a small aside HS1/2 only costs so much because it is due to be built on some of the most densely populated land on the planet already heaving with infrastructure quite a lot of which is conserved heritage and with a large proportion of dwelling places (homes). And of which just 0.5% is already state owned.
A similar proposal, which I've seen, for a Saudi version from Jeddah to Oman via Riyadh was costed at 1/2000th of the price of HS1

[BWFC_Insane]

There is little rationale for spending hundreds of billions on temporary camps in countries with poor infrastructure to house the refugees when it is more efficient to house them in European nations with the infrastructure and development already in place to support them. The only rationale would be "we don't want them coming here" which is fine, but hardly a solid business case.

WTF!
When has hundreds of billions been spent on this?
Maybe, just maybe spending on building up the infrastructure in these places might, just might make them more stable places in the future, you know like everyone claims our current foreign aid is doing.
I see you are one of the ostriches that willingly buries your head in the sand, pretending we have the housing and infrastructure in place now to cope, not to mention an awful lot of people would be unhappy with mass migration of alien cultures. You want the rise of the ultra right, lay on ships and boats to bring them in but don't sit sulking in the corner because of all the problems you've caused.

How much do you think it would cost, to develop the infrastructure in surrounding countries sufficiently to be able to house the refugees in the way you describe, safely, humanely and without medical risk?

Also factor in it isn't something that can be done at leisure. It would need to happen now. What is the cost and who realisitcally is going to broker the cooperation required and pay for it?

[Hoboh]

There is little rationale for spending hundreds of billions on temporary camps in countries with poor infrastructure to house the refugees when it is more efficient to house them in European nations with the infrastructure and development already in place to support them. The only rationale would be "we don't want them coming here" which is fine, but hardly a solid business case.

WTF!
When has hundreds of billions been spent on this?
Maybe, just maybe spending on building up the infrastructure in these places might, just might make them more stable places in the future, you know like everyone claims our current foreign aid is doing.
I see you are one of the ostriches that willingly buries your head in the sand, pretending we have the housing and infrastructure in place now to cope, not to mention an awful lot of people would be unhappy with mass migration of alien cultures. You want the rise of the ultra right, lay on ships and boats to bring them in but don't sit sulking in the corner because of all the problems you've caused.

How much do you think it would cost, to develop the infrastructure in surrounding countries sufficiently to be able to house the refugees in the way you describe, safely, humanely and without medical risk?

Also factor in it isn't something that can be done at leisure. It would need to happen now. What is the cost and who realisitcally is going to broker the cooperation required and pay for it?

Ok
So we carry on building fences and bombing, bring on the B-52's.

[Hoboh]

Well, well, well, the end of the welcome bands and parties then?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/n ... t-62866113" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Germany imposes surprise curbs on Syrian refugees
In abrupt U-turn by Merkel government, people fleeing civil war will no longer be granted asylum or refugee status

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -halt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boom!

Another myth blown out of the water, migration is good for the economy!

[Worthy4England]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -halt.html

Boom!

Another myth blown out of the water, migration is good for the economy!

hahahahahaha......


That's too funny. I'll consider the myth well and truly sorted out with those few paragraph that clearly demonstrate the adverse effect migration into the UK has on the UK economy.

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -halt.html

Boom!

Another myth blown out of the water, migration is good for the economy!

hahahahahaha......


That's too funny. I'll consider the myth well and truly sorted out with those few paragraph that clearly demonstrate the adverse effect migration into the UK has on the UK economy.

They're still in Calais

[bobo the clown]

Meanwhile Frau Merkel is coming under terrific pressure at home. Her Bavarian coalition partners are getting tetchy. Her over ambitious "come one come all" has backfired.

So scared that there's a party coup coming she's now cancelled 5 foreign visits so she's not away to allow attempts to oust from the party leadership.

Realising she's bitten off more than she can chew she's tried to bully other sovereign states with very limited success. Now she's decided to suspend some benefit rules (some of the very ones the UK gets told it can't change/ignore) for "the incoming". Finally, she's declared there'll be a fast track assessment of asylum seekers and failed ones will be returned very (where to ???) rapidly. Yeah, well good luck with that Angie ... the human rights lawyers must be erect in anticipation.

Meanwhile people under review will be held in "Assessment Centres" .... if only there was another word for these.

[Worthy4England]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -halt.html

Boom!

Another myth blown out of the water, migration is good for the economy!

hahahahahaha......


That's too funny. I'll consider the myth well and truly sorted out with those few paragraph that clearly demonstrate the adverse effect migration into the UK has on the UK economy.

They're still in Calais

According to the article, disrupting and slowing down the free movement of goods...which I think you're a big advocate of through reintroducing stronger border controls? Least we now have a figure that you seem pleased with, that shows how much your additional border controls will fost UK businesses....that's without the additional cost of the 10 mile high European boundary fence....

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -halt.html

Boom!

Another myth blown out of the water, migration is good for the economy!

hahahahahaha......


That's too funny. I'll consider the myth well and truly sorted out with those few paragraph that clearly demonstrate the adverse effect migration into the UK has on the UK economy.

They're still in Calais

According to the article, disrupting and slowing down the free movement of goods...which I think you're a big advocate of through reintroducing stronger border controls? Least we now have a figure that you seem pleased with, that shows how much your additional border controls will fost UK businesses....that's without the additional cost of the 10 mile high European boundary fence....

I think it's more to do with contaminated goods and leafs people on the line that's the problem not stronger border controls.
One solution maybe large ploughs fitted to the front of the trains!