Shootings and explosions in Paris this evening

[Dr Hotdog]

Absolutely horrifying. Shot to death at a sold out gig on a Friday night.

[TANGODANCER]

The fatality figures have grown to terrible proportions. One life lost is one too many. Forget God/Allah, religion or any form of political difference as being reasons; these atrocities are organised by kill-crazy lunatics who need putting down. When young kids are being trained to kill or blow themselves up with promises of martyrdom by a fanatical zealots who use religion and a battle cry of revenge against the western world, what does it say about the leaders and why are the followers so blind?

[thebish]

Yes, they do. But Harman's response to turning one of the most evil men the world has known in a long time into flying mince? An outraged "This may be a breach of international law". Jezza's response was very carefully crafted politico speak along the same lines.

Pussy foot around with terrorists and you lose. Remember Mr Chamberlain Harriet??

I agree with the sentiment.. people who commission, organise and/or carry out such murderous attacks as represented in the hostage videos and as happened in Paris yesterday are murderous scum and I won't be shedding any tears over their deaths.

that's one thing.

however - beyond the emotional response to a human tragedy of devastating scale, I don't think it is unreasonable for politicians to think things through with a level head.

I don't think it is incompatable with the above to also be wary and cautious about the now seemingly accepted norm of state-sponsored extra-judicial killings - often (but not always) using drone strikes. Even Tony Blair has recently conceded that the West's hamfisted "tough on terrorists" actions have been a large part of the raison-d'etre for the growth of ISL/ISIS. I don't think it is at all simple or obvious what our response should be - but I don't think it is unreasonable to question the responses we have made so far.

re. drone strikes - I AM cautious and wary about their effectiveness in combating terrorism - I think there may well be very good evidence that they are counter-productive. Their regular (and - yes - I mean regular) "collateral damage" of innocent bystanders/wedding parties/funeral gatherings are quite possibly a bigger recruitment coup for extremist murderers than they are effective in disrupting said murderous groups.

if we think they are effective - and an OK think for america do do on our behalf - would we (for instance) sanction and applaud their use by America in the UK against suspected terrorists - (say) - on a busy street in Bolton? if not - why not?

not that they are a legitimate excuse for mudering innocent bystanders in Paris - 100% no - absolutely not - in no way at all - but there does at least seem to be a good case for asking questions about what our response should be and whether it is a simple and obviously effective as it might appear to be at first sight...

that - as it happens - is the legitimate job of the govt. opposition - but even beyond that, it is surely in our own interests to ask questions about what the most effective measures to respond to this kind of relentless murderous c@ntishness might be rather than simply knee-jerk our way into the kind of catastrophic mistakes that America made after 9/11... politicians grandstanding and looking tough with disastrous war/bombing consequences is hardly a new thing...

I repeat - murderous c'nts, every last one of them... but - let's not stifle debate from reasonable peace-loving people who are as outraged by senseless murderous c@nts as the next man/woman/child.

[Hoboh]

Yes, they do. But Harman's response to turning one of the most evil men the world has known in a long time into flying mince? An outraged "This may be a breach of international law". Jezza's response was very carefully crafted politico speak along the same lines.

Pussy foot around with terrorists and you lose. Remember Mr Chamberlain Harriet??

I agree with the sentiment.. people who commission, organise and/or carry out such murderous attacks as represented in the hostage videos and as happened in Paris yesterday are murderous scum and I won't be shedding any tears over their deaths.

that's one thing.

however - beyond the emotional response to a human tragedy of devastating scale, I don't think it is unreasonable for politicians to think things through with a level head.

I don't think it is incompatable with the above to also be wary and cautious about the now seemingly accepted norm of state-sponsored extra-judicial killings - often (but not always) using drone strikes. Even Tony Blair has recently conceded that the West's hamfisted "tough on terrorists" actions have been a large part of the raison-d'etre for the growth of ISL/ISIS. I don't think it is at all simple or obvious what our response should be - but I don't think it is unreasonable to question the responses we have made so far.

re. drone strikes - I AM cautious and wary about their effectiveness in combating terrorism - I think there may well be very good evidence that they are counter-productive. Their regular (and - yes - I mean regular) "collateral damage" of innocent bystanders/wedding parties/funeral gatherings are quite possibly a bigger recruitment coup for extremist murderers than they are effective in disrupting said murderous groups.

if we think they are effective - and an OK think for america do do on our behalf - would we (for instance) sanction and applaud their use by America in the UK against suspected terrorists - (say) - on a busy street in Bolton? if not - why not?

not that they are a legitimate excuse for mudering innocent bystanders in Paris - 100% no - absolutely not - in no way at all - but there does at least seem to be a good case for asking questions about what our response should be and whether it is a simple and obviously effective as it might appear to be at first sight...

that - as it happens - is the legitimate job of the govt. opposition - but even beyond that, it is surely in our own interests to ask questions about what the most effective measures to respond to this kind of relentless murderous c@ntishness might be rather than simply knee-jerk our way into the kind of catastrophic mistakes that America made after 9/11... politicians grandstanding and looking tough with disastrous war/bombing consequences is hardly a new thing...

I repeat - murderous c'nts, every last one of them... but - let's not stifle debate from reasonable peace-loving people who are as outraged by senseless murderous c@nts as the next man/woman/child.

I'm still waiting for that excuse of a labour leader to announce he's flying to Syria to negotiate with ISIS leaders on a UN mandated mission!
Reckon I'll be waiting a while being he's all piss and wind and a total merely mouthed tit!
RIP the victims in France.

[bobo the clown]

It is the difference between theory and practice. Academic and reality.

You can't be an real, y'know ACTUAL, leader when everything is one big ball of theory ... even if that theory holds together as a nice idea.

[thebish]

It is the difference between theory and practice. Academic and reality.

You can't be an real, y'know ACTUAL, leader when everything is one big ball of theory ... even if that theory holds together as a nice idea.

no.. I don't think it is...

[bobo the clown]

"The Greek public order minister confirms one of the attackers was registered as a refugee on Leros island earlier in the year."

Oooh dear Angela.

[Worthy4England]

On a similar note, the first time we actually saw a real de-escalation of activities by both sides in Ireland was through negotiation, not throwing more troops at the problem. They still managed to get across our border and cause atrocity. How soon folks forget. That said, some shock n awe in known IS locations seems mighty appealing right now.

[Bijou Bob]

On a similar note, the first time we actually saw a real de-escalation of activities by both sides in Ireland was through negotiation, not throwing more troops at the problem. They still managed to get across our border and cause atrocity. How soon folks forget. That said, some shock n awe in known IS locations seems mighty appealing right now.

The PIRA, for all their atrocities, had no intention of taking over the world. ISIL won't negotiate. You, me and every other non Sunni Muslim (And even moderate Sunnis) are kufar, Godless, and unworthy of life. There is no negotiating. It's not just the establishment of a caliphate they want, it's world domination and the extermination of everyone who is not like them

[Little Green Man]

On a similar note, the first time we actually saw a real de-escalation of activities by both sides in Ireland was through negotiation, not throwing more troops at the problem. They still managed to get across our border and cause atrocity. How soon folks forget. That said, some shock n awe in known IS locations seems mighty appealing right now.

The PIRA, for all their atrocities, had no intention of taking over the world. ISIL won't negotiate. You, me and every other non Sunni Muslim (And even moderate Sunnis) are kufar, Godless, and unworthy of life. There is no negotiating. It's not just the establishment of a caliphate they want, it's world domination and the extermination of everyone who is not like them

To be fair to them, they do occasionally give you a choice of extermination or heavy subjugation and taxation.

I do wish they weren't referred to as IS or ISIS or ISIL, even if so-called is stuck in front of it. They're not a state in any sense.

[thebish]

On a similar note, the first time we actually saw a real de-escalation of activities by both sides in Ireland was through negotiation, not throwing more troops at the problem. They still managed to get across our border and cause atrocity. How soon folks forget. That said, some shock n awe in known IS locations seems mighty appealing right now.

The PIRA, for all their atrocities, had no intention of taking over the world. ISIL won't negotiate. You, me and every other non Sunni Muslim (And even moderate Sunnis) are kufar, Godless, and unworthy of life. There is no negotiating. It's not just the establishment of a caliphate they want, it's world domination and the extermination of everyone who is not like them

either way - the drone strategy doesn't seem to be having any noticeable effect... for some reason they have endless willing recruits.

[Prufrock]

Yes, they do. But Harman's response to turning one of the most evil men the world has known in a long time into flying mince? An outraged "This may be a breach of international law". Jezza's response was very carefully crafted politico speak along the same lines.

Pussy foot around with terrorists and you lose. Remember Mr Chamberlain Harriet??

I agree with the sentiment.. people who commission, organise and/or carry out such murderous attacks as represented in the hostage videos and as happened in Paris yesterday are murderous scum and I won't be shedding any tears over their deaths.

that's one thing.

however - beyond the emotional response to a human tragedy of devastating scale, I don't think it is unreasonable for politicians to think things through with a level head.

I don't think it is incompatable with the above to also be wary and cautious about the now seemingly accepted norm of state-sponsored extra-judicial killings - often (but not always) using drone strikes. Even Tony Blair has recently conceded that the West's hamfisted "tough on terrorists" actions have been a large part of the raison-d'etre for the growth of ISL/ISIS. I don't think it is at all simple or obvious what our response should be - but I don't think it is unreasonable to question the responses we have made so far.

re. drone strikes - I AM cautious and wary about their effectiveness in combating terrorism - I think there may well be very good evidence that they are counter-productive. Their regular (and - yes - I mean regular) "collateral damage" of innocent bystanders/wedding parties/funeral gatherings are quite possibly a bigger recruitment coup for extremist murderers than they are effective in disrupting said murderous groups.

if we think they are effective - and an OK think for america do do on our behalf - would we (for instance) sanction and applaud their use by America in the UK against suspected terrorists - (say) - on a busy street in Bolton? if not - why not?

not that they are a legitimate excuse for mudering innocent bystanders in Paris - 100% no - absolutely not - in no way at all - but there does at least seem to be a good case for asking questions about what our response should be and whether it is a simple and obviously effective as it might appear to be at first sight...

that - as it happens - is the legitimate job of the govt. opposition - but even beyond that, it is surely in our own interests to ask questions about what the most effective measures to respond to this kind of relentless murderous c@ntishness might be rather than simply knee-jerk our way into the kind of catastrophic mistakes that America made after 9/11... politicians grandstanding and looking tough with disastrous war/bombing consequences is hardly a new thing...

I repeat - murderous c'nts, every last one of them... but - let's not stifle debate from reasonable peace-loving people who are as outraged by senseless murderous c@nts as the next man/woman/child.

That's broadly where I'm at. I'm deeply uncomfortable about drone strikes, not really because I think people like Jihadi John should be put on trial (of course they should but it's not an option when they're knocking about in the middle of Syria/Iraq) but because, as you say, the killings are so indiscriminate. Incidents beyond mention of innocents and chidren being killed when a wedding is bombed because one of the party is a high-ranking terorrist. It's both morally wrong and counter-productive. It doesn't justify attacks like yesterday, despite what pillocks like Noam Chomskey might say (has he popped up yet to say they deserved it?) but I think they're counter-productive. It's an ISIS recruiter's dream.

It's patently obvious that ISIS need sorting out, but I don't see how we do that without sending troops. Human beings who can make the decision. I'm glad I don't have to make that call, but I don't see how else it's fixed. They're not just going away, and we've missed our chance to do what we should always f*cking do and back the democrats.

[William the White]

It doesn't justify attacks like yesterday, despite what pillocks like Noam Chomskey might say (has he popped up yet to say they deserved it?) but I think they're counter-productive. It's an ISIS recruiter's dream.

Why do you think Chomsky is a pillock? About whom do you expect him to say 'they deserved it'? It doesn't sound like his lexicon.

[Prufrock]

He blamed the victims of 9/11 for being complicit in the crimes of the West that led to the attacks. I can't find the article (because googling "Noam Chomskey 9/11" brings you a world of fruitloops and nutjob 9/11 truthers who think he sold them out by deciding he did think bin Laden was behind it after all) but I remember reading it. Everytime one of these attacks happens he's first in the queue to write an op-ed piece about how it's not really their fault and it's actually western democracy (which he thinks is a synonym for "Western Capitalism") that is to blame for terrorism.

His talent as a linguist and a writer isn't enough to mitigate his jeb-endedness.

[TANGODANCER]

The daughter of my wife's niece lives and works in Paris. Usually she would have been out and about on Friday night with her friends. Last night she stayed home and is safe.(wife texed today to check) some of her good friends were less fortunate. R.I.P all of those who died.

[Prufrock]

Aye, friend of mine lost a friend last night.

Been a small bit of fuss about the "#prayforParis" today. Made me sad.

[Worthy4England]

On a similar note, the first time we actually saw a real de-escalation of activities by both sides in Ireland was through negotiation, not throwing more troops at the problem. They still managed to get across our border and cause atrocity. How soon folks forget. That said, some shock n awe in known IS locations seems mighty appealing right now.

The PIRA, for all their atrocities, had no intention of taking over the world. ISIL won't negotiate. You, me and every other non Sunni Muslim (And even moderate Sunnis) are kufar, Godless, and unworthy of life. There is no negotiating. It's not just the establishment of a caliphate they want, it's world domination and the extermination of everyone who is not like them

There was no negotiating with Iran either...but the West has been doing just that. The ultimate "solution" won't be found through war imho. That doesn't mean to say there shouldn't be tactical intervention. There was also, for most of my lifetime, the was no negotiating with the IRA. Similar to Syria, we could have completely levelled the place...

[Lord Kangana]

The Syrians, with plenty of clandestine help, have managed a pretty good job of levelling the place all by themselves. Hence the refugee crisis we're seeing. How the f*ck raining more bombs on them is going to help is utterly beyond comprehension.

There's some reet clueless f*ckers about who can't seem to join the dots with causality. If we do the same job on Syria as we did with Iraq, expect this to only get worse, not better. Large numbers of people aren't attracted to this kind of ideology when the alternative is better. I hold out no hope that this time around we'll have learnt that lesson. So expect more of the same, sadly. With folks like you and me, not the high profile politicians who make the decisions (and their expensively assembled security arrangements), to be in the firing line.

[BWFC_Insane]

The Syrians, with plenty of clandestine help, have managed a pretty good job of levelling the place all by themselves. Hence the refugee crisis we're seeing. How the f*ck raining more bombs on them is going to help is utterly beyond comprehension.

There's some reet clueless f*ckers about who can't seem to join the dots with causality. If we do the same job on Syria as we did with Iraq, expect this to only get worse, not better. Large numbers of people aren't attracted to this kind of ideology when the alternative is better. I hold out no hope that this time around we'll have learnt that lesson. So expect more of the same, sadly. With folks like you and me, not the high profile politicians who make the decisions (and their expensively assembled security arrangements), to be in the firing line.

The majority of the general public agree with this I think. People can see. Let's hope politicians aren't swayed by a vocal minority.

[TANGODANCER]

Many things unclear or unexplained, but just a little odd that someone going off on the instructions of the mad mullah's to kill himself ( in addition to his victims) and knowing terrorists penchant for secrecy, would take his passport along? Also, if related, leaving a vehicle with assault rifles in it parked up somewhere?